[UU Discussion] Kingler (Remains UU)

[Zorres00]

For starters, this boss has a base 130 attack along with some powerful moves such as Crab Hammer, Double Edge, and Superpower. There are no pokes in the UU tier that can handle that powah “decently”. And with its high defense its hard for even fast physical hitters to come in a do anything, you would need to risk bringing in a special attacker which could lead to its death. In addition, it is relatively fast with a base speed of 75, which can out speed the vast majority of walls and a handful of bulky types such as Poliwrath. If there were one adjective I would use to describe this beast incarnate, it would be “Unstoppable”.

 

Calcs:

 

Slowking:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 179-211 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 238-281 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Blastoise:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 155-183 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 207-244 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Quagsire:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 230-271 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Vileplume:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 172-203 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 230-271 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Exeggutor:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 230-271 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Gligar:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 374-444 (111.9 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 500-590 (149.7 - 176.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Steelix:

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 308-366 (87 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

 

Keep in mind these are all 252 HP/252 +Defense walls. Need I say more? Discuss please. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by Zorres00

[Robofiend]

Imo Vileplume, Exeggutor, Slowking and Quagsire are solid counters, they all can absorb Kingler's one STAB really well so Kingler has to predict to hit them. If it's choiced it will have to deal with two important problems:

 

1. Double-Edge is really its only option to hit these counters and all of them have enough HP to make the recoil more than annoying

2. All three listed counters can run instant recovery moves (Synth/Recover/Slack Off), so even if Kingler hits them once they can recover back to full HP and stall it out. Additionally, Vileplume and Exegg's access to Giga Drain means they can heal up while also damaging a rampaging crab.

 

Apart from that: just because it kills things doesn't mean it's Uber. Even if you don't have one of these "fail proof" counters, you can play around CB D-edge or Superpower by bringing Ghosts, Flying types or Steels. Altaria, Misdreavus and Steelix can all force a CB set out, and setting up a SD is only going to get you so far if it turns out your opponent has CB Hitmonlee or Manectric waiting to revenge kill you. 

 

tl;dr Kingler's a lot like OU Marowak who thrives against walls and struggles against stronger sweepers

[BurntZebra]

Imo Vileplume, Exeggutor, Slowking and Quagsire are solid counters, they all can absorb Kingler's one STAB really well so Kingler has to predict to hit them. If it's choiced it will have to deal with two important problems:

 

1. Double-Edge is really its only option to hit these counters and all of them have enough HP to make the recoil more than annoying

2. All three listed counters can run instant recovery moves (Synth/Recover/Slack Off), so even if Kingler hits them once they can recover back to full HP and stall it out. Additionally, Vileplume and Exegg's access to Giga Drain means they can heal up while also damaging a rampaging crab.

 

Apart from that: just because it kills things doesn't mean it's Uber. Even if you don't have one of these "fail proof" counters, you can play around CB D-edge or Superpower by bringing Ghosts, Flying types or Steels. Altaria, Misdreavus and Steelix can all force a CB set out, and setting up a SD is only going to get you so far if it turns out your opponent has CB Hitmonlee or Manectric waiting to revenge kill you. 

 

tl;dr Kingler's a lot like OU Marowak who thrives against walls and struggles against stronger sweepers

well Marowak was UU and was banned to BL so I don't know if that was the best example. I would only count exeggutor and vileplume as counters because quagsire can only 3hko or 4hko kingler with earthquake, depending on if kingler has leftovers or not. Slowking does not ohko kingler either and is 2hko'ed by kingler's +2 return. 

[OldKeith]

Imo Vileplume, Exeggutor, Slowking and Quagsire are solid counters, they all can absorb Kingler's one STAB really well so Kingler has to predict to hit them. If it's choiced it will have to deal with two important problems:

 

1. Double-Edge is really its only option to hit these counters and all of them have enough HP to make the recoil more than annoying

2. All three listed counters can run instant recovery moves (Synth/Recover/Slack Off), so even if Kingler hits them once they can recover back to full HP and stall it out. Additionally, Vileplume and Exegg's access to Giga Drain means they can heal up while also damaging a rampaging crab.

 

Apart from that: just because it kills things doesn't mean it's Uber. Even if you don't have one of these "fail proof" counters, you can play around CB D-edge or Superpower by bringing Ghosts, Flying types or Steels. Altaria, Misdreavus and Steelix can all force a CB set out, and setting up a SD is only going to get you so far if it turns out your opponent has CB Hitmonlee or Manectric waiting to revenge kill you. 

 

tl;dr Kingler's a lot like OU Marowak who thrives against walls and struggles against stronger sweepers

 

The problem with Kingler is that it has enough speed to kill something, and enough bulk to be able to safely set up the deadly Swords Dance.

 

Anyway, why was Marowak banned from UU? It's slow, although it hits hard...

[Zorres00]

Imo Vileplume, Exeggutor, Slowking and Quagsire are solid counters, they all can absorb Kingler's one STAB really well so Kingler has to predict to hit them. If it's choiced it will have to deal with two important problems:

 

1. Double-Edge is really its only option to hit these counters and all of them have enough HP to make the recoil more than annoying

2. All three listed counters can run instant recovery moves (Synth/Recover/Slack Off), so even if Kingler hits them once they can recover back to full HP and stall it out. Additionally, Vileplume and Exegg's access to Giga Drain means they can heal up while also damaging a rampaging crab.

 

Apart from that: just because it kills things doesn't mean it's Uber. Even if you don't have one of these "fail proof" counters, you can play around CB D-edge or Superpower by bringing Ghosts, Flying types or Steels. Altaria, Misdreavus and Steelix can all force a CB set out, and setting up a SD is only going to get you so far if it turns out your opponent has CB Hitmonlee or Manectric waiting to revenge kill you. 

 

tl;dr Kingler's a lot like OU Marowak who thrives against walls and struggles against stronger sweepers

 

But when you enter the battle, if make the wrong prediction then ur screwd because you'll get hit super hard. its easy to say you'll just swap into something that can handle superpower or double edge. because ur assuming it will use it. so if ur dealing with a pro predictor, its gonna be really hard to deal with. Also after a +2 from sd it will be strong enough to take out some walls, and i dont think many would wanna hard swap a cb hitmonlee or manectric into kingler based on the fact it can get ohko'd.

[Robofiend]

But when you enter the battle, if make the wrong prediction then ur screwd because you'll get hit super hard 

 

Aww cry, offense 2 scary. Ok, less sarcastic response: you could say the same thing (if make the wrong prediction then ur screwd) about sooo many things in Pokemon that I don't accept that as an argument. It's not fair to ban something soley because it forces tough predictions and hits hard, it must also be capable of sweeping the tier with relative ease, I'm having trouble seeing how Kingler meets that criterion.

 

well Marowak was UU and was banned to BL so I don't know if that was the best example. I would only count exeggutor and vileplume as counters because quagsire can only 3hko or 4hko kingler with earthquake, depending on if kingler has leftovers or not. Slowking does not ohko kingler either and is 2hko'ed by kingler's +2 return. 

 

 

Sorry, should've mentioned that analogy was for OU Marowak (@Keith too). Maybe (pre-split) SD Scyther or SD Pinsir would be a better example, both are faster than Kingler, both had Strong STAB options to break walls (and better move pools, too), and both weren't really Uber because they could be stopped if countered correctly. Kingler seems pretty transparent tbh, it's gotta come in on something slow and relatively offenseless (like Blastoise), set up SD and then hope the opponent goes for a wall to be successful. If they send in Vileplume/Exegg (both of whom are common), Kingler has to retreat. Even if it picks something off, it then can be picked off by faster sweepers, meaning it'll have to set up again to be really successful. Doesn't seem like it "sweeps a signficant portion of the tier with little to no effort" to me.

 

As for Quags/Slowking - they definitely fare better vs. CB set than SD, Exegg and Vileplume are the only "hard counters" but I prefer to think of counters as set specific than pokemon specific because 2 different sets can function totally differently and require totally different counters.

[Bestfriendss]

Disclaimer, if any of you want to use the final battle raaidn VS OldKeith as evidence, you can. I can list the marks that you can use if this helps the Kingler discussion.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efAWV8q0VFQ

 

1;46;35 - 1;49;08

 

I appreciate helping the competitive community stabilize, and if there any of my videos that can help, please let me know.

[Shaniqualela]

It's a wallbreaker, that's what it's supposed to do. Also, it is easily revenge killed

[YagamiNoir]

Notable other options for this thing would be Flail and Rain Support. Flail does shrekt most, if not all of the previously mentioned counters, and one does not simply take one Rain-and-Choice-Band-boosted Crabhammer nicely. That is of course, with the exception of Slowking, Exeggutor that need to be physically Defensive, as well as few bulky Waters, that of which still take around a hefty 40~50% from Crabhammer. 

 

252+ Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer in Rain vs. 252/0 Vileplume: 120-142 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Here, have some Flail calcs, too.

 

252 +2 Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252/252+ Slowking: 188-222 (93 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 +2 Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252/252+ Exeggutor: 182-215 (90 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 +2 Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252/252+ Blastoise: 164-193 (88.1 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

These all assume Jolly Kingler.

 

Let's not forget that unless something is daring to run something as odd as Shedinja Normal and Water type moves have unresisted coverage. Then again, this may just be a case of a Marowak-like power creep, especially given the instantaneous recovery that some stuff get, unless prior damage is involved. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[epicdavenport]

Disclaimer, if any of you want to use the final battle raaidn VS OldKeith as evidence, you can. I can list the marks that you can use if this helps the Kingler discussion.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efAWV8q0VFQ

 

1;46;35 - 1;49;08

 

I appreciate helping the competitive community stabilize, and if there any of my videos that can help, please let me know.

Was granbulls intimidate working? I didn't see any notifications.

[dedegendut]

Was granbulls intimidate working? I didn't see any notifications.

hypercutter

[Wakao]

Not using endure flail ancientpower swords dance godcrab > do you even pokemon

[fredrichnietze]

Not using endure flail ancientpower swords dance godcrab > do you even pokemon

ancient power is special >_>

[OrangeManiac]

Without priority Kingler is pretty insane force to deal with. It can Swords Dance against any physical attacker, then Endure (or Sub with lower risk but possibly not max power Flail) and +2 Flail will pretty much destroy anything that doesn't resist it - and what resists it has to take a Stab Crabhammer. This set sure is insanely scary so like I said, the keyword is WITHOUT priority. For non Flail set where the Crabhammer is its main move and pretty much the only really good move it has so you can easily have counters (Water Absorb Pokemon) and some checks resisting it. Priority is terrible in this generation but I think it has been a good enough reason to not ban some of the Flail/Reversal Pokemon in the past, so I don't think you could argue Kingler to a boot but we'll see.

Edited March 22, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Zorres00]

Without priority Kingler is pretty insane force to deal with. It can Swords Dance against any physical attacker, then Endure (or Sub with lower risk but possibly not max power Flail) and +2 Flail will pretty much destroy anything that doesn't resist it - and what resists it has to take a Stab Crabhammer. This set sure is insanely scary so like I said, the keyword is WITHOUT priority. For non Flail set where the Crabhammer is its main move and pretty much the only really good move it has so you can easily have counters (Water Absorb Pokemon) and some checks resisting it. Priority is terrible in this generation but I think it has been a good enough reason to not ban some of the Flail/Reversal Pokemon in the past, so I don't think you could argue Kingler to a boot but we'll see.

 

Don't think jus ban pl0x pls, but i doubt anyone would use flail kingler anyway lol. sd set is the best for kingler as it is the most op one out of them all. so id prefer to focus more on that.

[OrangeManiac]

Don't think jus ban pl0x pls, but i doubt anyone would use flail kingler anyway lol. sd set is the best for kingler as it is the most op one out of them all. so id prefer to focus more on that.

The Flail itself isn't that notable, it's the Salac Berry coming with that set. And when you use a Salac set Flail usually tends to be the move to go, at least in my opinion. Without the Salac Boost Kingler sure hits hard but it can be revenge killed by so many things due to its pitiful Special Defense.

[NikhilR]

The Flail itself isn't that notable, it's the Salac Berry coming with that set. And when you use a Salac set Flail usually tends to be the move to go, at least in my opinion. Without the Salac Boost Kingler sure hits hard but it can be revenge killed by so many things due to its pitiful Special Defense.

 

How does Kingler get revenge killed due to its pitiful special defense?

 

My question is regarding the revenge killed part.

Edited March 22, 2015 by NikhilR

[Toast]

How does Kingler get revenge killed due to its pitiful special defense?

 

My question is regarding the revenge killed part.

vacuum wave

 

oh wait

[OrangeManiac]

How does Kingler get revenge killed due to its pitiful special defense?
 
My question is regarding the revenge killed part.

The fact any faster than base 70 Speed special attacker will cause massive damage due to it while it's weak to Giga Drain and Tbolt which are quite common coverage moves. That's why I think Kingler should run Salac Berry.

[YagamiNoir]

The fact any faster than base 70 Speed special attacker will cause massive damage due to it while it's weak to Giga Drain and Tbolt which are quite common coverage moves. That's why I think Kingler should run Salac Berry.

Kingler has 75 base Speed. When we talk about need for speed, Kingler also gets Agility. Since I'm on my phone now I can't calc and see if stuff like Xatu and Nidoking can revenge kill it from full health.

Things that are vulnerable to revenge killing also have this thing called Sub. Edited March 22, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[NikhilR]

The fact any faster than base 70 Speed special attacker will cause massive damage due to it while it's weak to Giga Drain and Tbolt which are quite common coverage moves. That's why I think Kingler should run Salac Berry.

 

The fact is that any fast spaker can get walled by spak walls whereas kingler has the ability to break through physical walls, something that special walls can't do (breaking down it's own walls). Salac berry is only necessary if you want to sweep through the tier. My point is that there is no pokemon that can safely switch into kingler or anything that can switch in and retaliate. It is for this reason I believe Kingler is too strong for the tier and needs to go. 

[raaidn]

Hm, I think Forf checked, and it can't get agility in our meta.

[BurntZebra]

Hm, I think Forf checked, and it can't get agility in our meta.

Yeah we need something called archeops to get agility onto kingler

[Toast]

Kingler has 75 base Speed. When we talk about need for speed, Kingler also gets Agility. Since I'm on my phone now I can't calc and see if stuff like Xatu and Nidoking can revenge kill it from full health.

Things that are vulnerable to revenge killing also have this thing called Sub.

kingler doesn't get agility iirc, tried it

[felix]

Tangela is a pretty good check to Kingler, it can run Knock off to get rid of the CB and slow kingler down as well, it can use reflect to support the whole team.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

it can be very strong, but i think that it should stay for a little longer

Edited March 22, 2015 by felix