[UU Discussion] Zangoose (Remains UU)

[OldKeith]

 

Ability:

Immunity

 

Viable Moves:

Swords Dance

Return

Brick Break/Low Kick

Fire Punch/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch

Quick Attack

Pursuit

Flail

 

 

Some Calcs...

+2 252 Atk Return vs...

[spoiler]Gligar   252 HP +252 Def   65.1% - 77.3%

Slowking   252 HP +252 Def   65.8% - 77.7%

Donphan   252 HP +252 Def   51.8% - 61.4%

Blastoise  252 HP +252 Def   61.8% - 73.1%

Quagsire   252 HP +252 Def   62.9% - 74.8%

Umbreon   252 HP +252 Def   54% - 63.9%

Clefable   252 HP +252 Def   69.8% - 82.2%

Shuckle   252 HP +252 Def   24.4% - 29.1% - but what is Shuckle gonna do?

Altaria   252 HP +252 Def   68.1% - 80.8%[/spoiler]

 

+2 252 Atk Low Kick vs...

[spoiler]Steelix   252 HP +252 Def   60.4% - 71.4%

Steelix   252 HP +Def   68.1% - 81.3%

Aggron   252 HP +252 Def   135.6% - 160.5%

Golem   252 HP +Def   97.3% - 115.5%

Cradily   252 HP +252 Def 64.2% - 76.7%

Kangaskhan   252 HP   95.3% - 112.3%[/spoiler]

 

+2 252 Atk Fire Punch vs...

[spoiler]Scizor   252 HP +252 Def  128.8% - 153.7%[/spoiler]

 

Massive Damage, 2hkos on the toughest walls in UU right now, plus great speed base. Discuss.

Edited March 21, 2015 by OldKeith

[Rache]

Flail is also quite viable, and with STAB and coming off base 115 attack, it really stings - especially if Zangoose has a chance to set up a Swords Dance too.

[OldKeith]

Thanks and edited!

[semjon]

I like body slam, cause paralysing the counter/check coming in, isnt that bad imo.

And Steelix is a really common and effective wall against that.

Edited March 22, 2015 by semjon

[OldKeith]

I like body slam, cause paralysing the counter/check coming in, isnt that bad imo.

And Steelix is a really common and effective wall against that.

 

Too bad it gets 2hkod at +2

[YagamiNoir]

+2 Zangoose Return or Brick Break vs. 252/252 +Solrock: 63-75 (35.5 - 42.3%) -- 91.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Solrock has Reflect to reduce more damage and Morning Sun as recovery.

 

Although rare, there is this one particular effective Normal type counter called Armaldo:

+2 Zangoose Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252/252+ Armaldo: 61-72 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 20% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Armaldo Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 4/0 Zangoose: 78-93 (52.3 - 62.4%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 4/0 Zangoose: 77-91 (51.6 - 61%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

So you don't even need max investment. 

 

Although Hitmontop is still 2HKOed factoring Intimidate, I'd say Hitmontop serves as a decent check, especially if it runs both Mach Punch and a STAB Fighting move. If said Fighting move is more powerful than Intimidate it does have a chance to OHKO Zangoose.

0 Hitmontop Brick Break vs. 4/0 Zangoose: 124-146 (83.2 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 Zangoose Return vs. 252/252+ Hitmontop: 90-106 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Zangoose itself is also vulnerable to Choice Band Mach Punch from these guys, although Hitmonlee does not appreciate a +2 Quick Attack:

Jolly Choice Band Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 4/0 Zangoose: 147-174 (98.6 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Jolly Choice Band Breloom Mach Punch vs. Zangoose: 158-186 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+2 Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 4/0 Hitmonlee: 104-123 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 4/0 Breloom: 76-90 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 Zangoose Return vs. 252/252+ Donphan: 102-121 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Donphan Superpower vs. 4/0 Zangoose: 159-188 (106.7 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

A Pokemon doesn't really need to avoid the 2HKO from a Pokemon provided it can immediately rekt it on the spot. In Donphan's case, Superpower. It's also notable that Zangoose can only run one coverage move on a Flail set, two on a Swords Dance set (or one if it runs Sub or Taunt) or lack the power of a Swords Dance set if it runs Choice Band. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[NikhilR]

I think quick attack has +1 priority Noir, just like mach punch. Espeed has +2.

[Tyrone]

I think quick attack has +1 priority Noir, just like mach punch. Espeed has +2.

He means +2 as in after Sdance.

 

I'd like to keep Zangoose in UU for a bit.

Sure, it hits hard (but so do so many other pokemon) but is kinda frail as well.

[YagamiNoir]

I think quick attack has +1 priority Noir, just like mach punch. Espeed has +2.

What Tyrone said and Zangoose is faster than them anyways. Edited March 22, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[NikhilR]

My bad, dunno what I was thinking.

 

I think it's banworthy imo considering how it can get to +2 and then possibly beat most things that outpace it with quick attack since the faster pokemon are fragile. With access to a powerful stab return most walls get killed. This makes it one of the best endgame sweepers. 

[OldKeith]

I believe that Zangoose is banworthy under the Offensive Characteristic as it is able to sweep most of the meta without too much trouble. Zangoose hits like a truck and the UU meta does not have access to the walls necessary to bring it to a stop.

 

I admit that Armaldo is a good counter and can get rid of it. But aside from that, everything dies at the hands of the mighty mongoose.

Edited March 22, 2015 by OldKeith

[londark]

I admit that Armaldo is a good counter and can get rid of it. But aside from that, everything dies at the hands of the mighty mongoose.

 

I'll be that guy

 

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Armaldo: 152-180 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[OldKeith]

I'll be that guy

 

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Armaldo: 152-180 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Armaldo has superpower GGNORE.

[londark]

Armaldo has superpower GGNORE.

 

Get an Adamant Zangose then

[Robofiend]

I believe that Zangoose is banworthy under the Offensive Characteristic as it is able to sweep most of the meta without too much trouble. Zangoose hits like a truck and the UU meta does not have access to the walls necessary to bring it to a stop.

 

Does OU? Can you think of a wall combo that really stops Fire Punch + Return? 

 

Just because it can't be walled doesn't mean it's Uber.  

Edited March 23, 2015 by Robofiend

[OldKeith]

Does OU? Can you think of a wall combo that really stops Fire Punch + Return? 

 

Just because it can't be walled doesn't mean it's Uber.  

 

How about we add Low kick to that pool and then no, I cannot think of many things that stop that.

 

And idk how you see it, but I see a thing that cannot be walled as a problem, at least.

Edited March 23, 2015 by OldKeith

[NikhilR]

How is something that cannot be walled not Uber? I'm not asking for the smogon definition or anything but any pokemon that has no chance of being walled needs to go. Ursaring has almost the same set as Zangoose but lower speed and higher bulk which almost balances things out. in OU you have Rhydon which is used quite often and can wall it. 

[Kizhaz]

How is something that cannot be walled not Uber? I'm not asking for the smogon definition or anything but any pokemon that has no chance of being walled needs to go. Ursaring has almost the same set as Zangoose but lower speed and higher bulk which almost balances things out. in OU you have Rhydon which is used quite often and can wall it.

because I can send a steel or rock type in for days, I dont care about taking a measly non stab fighting hit unless its +2, in which case its set up as I switch in then take a heavy hit and kill this thing with its measly defenses. On phone so cant calc to back up my argument, but it looks as though these calcs are already in the thread

[OldKeith]

because I can send a steel or rock type in for days, I dont care about taking a measly non stab fighting hit unless its +2, in which case its set up as I switch in then take a heavy hit and kill this thing with its measly defenses. On phone so cant calc to back up my argument, but it looks as though these calcs are already in the thread

 

So Steelix is supposed to take well over half HP as punishment from a +2 Zangoose? To do what? Deal some damage and then die to the following blow?

[Kizhaz]

So Steelix is supposed to take well over half HP as punishment from a +2 Zangoose? To do what? Deal some damage and then die to the following blow?

 

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 138-164 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 157-186 (106 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Zangoose as a result of the new meta cannot be stopped by walls, this is probably why your struggling against it since you prefer to use the stall strategy in battle, since it is easily the best strategy in gen 3. Zangoose is one of those pokemon that can be taken down easily since it's not too fast, not too bulky, but it will deal a heavy hit. It is a pokemon that hurts the wall strategy, something that is needed to balance the meta since stall is overly powerful.

[DrCraig]

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 138-164 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/size]
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 157-186 (106 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO[/size]
 
Zangoose as a result of the new meta cannot be stopped by walls, this is probably why your struggling against it since you prefer to use the stall strategy in battle, since it is easily the best strategy in gen 3. Zangoose is one of those pokemon that can be taken down easily since it's not too fast, not too bulky, but it will deal a heavy hit. It is a pokemon that hurts the wall strategy, something that is needed to balance the meta since stall is overly powerful.

I have to reply, you are making no sense. You are jabbing at Keith's alleged playstyle while agreeing Zangoose cannot be walled. Zangoose is fast, I don't know what you are talking about. Only a handful outspeed it, and yes it isn't bulky. Who cares what your HP looks like if you can pull off 1+ kills with little support. Its similiar to the prinicipal of using double edge. Recoil is unimportant if your getting a kill and surviving. But anyways. I think there is a difference between not being able to be stopped by walls, pressuring walls, and getting walled. The part about having nothing to wall it is what makes Zangoose cadidate for BL. If I'm incorrect please correct me
I believe our offensive should pressure walls not run them completely over

[OldKeith]

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 138-164 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 157-186 (106 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Zangoose as a result of the new meta cannot be stopped by walls, this is probably why your struggling against it since you prefer to use the stall strategy in battle, since it is easily the best strategy in gen 3. Zangoose is one of those pokemon that can be taken down easily since it's not too fast, not too bulky, but it will deal a heavy hit. It is a pokemon that hurts the wall strategy, something that is needed to balance the meta since stall is overly powerful.

 

At 90 base speed I would consider it anything but slow. No, I am not using a 5-6 wall stall strategy, making assumptions like that is not something very professional to do. Do not turn this discussion into "oh poor you, you cannot beat this thing because you don't understand how the meta works", it's incredibly irritating and it takes the discussion off topic.

 

Anyway, a banded Steelix is not the best example of a wall, since the most you see run leftovers and an Impish nature. If you follow recent UU officials, you will notice that it is much more viable to choice band a stronger attacker than Steelix (who doesn't really like getting itself locked into Eq, anyway). Let's make a more realistic calculation then.

 

0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs 0 HP Zangoose 51.4% - 60.8%

252 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs 0 HP Zangoose 65.5% - 77.7%

 

Scenario in which Steelix dies, or is forced to retreat next turn into a Haunter.

[Kizhaz]

For the record I wasnt trying to have a go at keiths play style, im sorry it came off that way. I have used cb steelix before and it is great as a tank. I was not calling cb steelix a wall, I said zangoose cannot be beaten by walls, since it is a wall breaker. If we look at crawdaunt compared to zangoose, besides the obvious speed difference, crawdaunt shits on all walls as well (Unless im overlooking something), it has access to the same set up and more, however like zangoose once it has dealt the damage and done its job, it is easily revenge killed.

[OldKeith]

For the record I wasnt trying to have a go at keiths play style, im sorry it came off that way. I have used cb steelix before and it is great as a tank. I was not calling cb steelix a wall, I said zangoose cannot be beaten by walls, since it is a wall breaker. If we look at crawdaunt compared to zangoose, besides the obvious speed difference, crawdaunt shits on all walls as well (Unless im overlooking something), it has access to the same set up and more, however like zangoose once it has dealt the damage and done its job, it is easily revenge killed.

 

That's not really how it works. Once Zangoose has done its job and broken a wall, it forces the opponent to try to kill it with priority. Moment in which Zangoose can switch out, and the said priority move gets absorbed by something that can take it. Zangoose is now at half HP and can still come and threated with its devastating blows. I don't think a balanced meta is one in which you have to sack a wall in order to force the threat out only. Nobody is so incompetent to let it get revenge killed; the only option to revenge it is by using pursuit, which, if predicted, can go horribly wrong.

[YagamiNoir]

That's not really how it works. Once Zangoose has done its job and broken a wall, it forces the opponent to try to kill it with priority. Moment in which Zangoose can switch out, and the said priority move gets absorbed by something that can take it. Zangoose is now at half HP and can still come and threated with its devastating blows. I don't think a balanced meta is one in which you have to sack a wall in order to force the threat out only. Nobody is so incompetent to let it get revenge killed; the only option to revenge it is by using pursuit, which, if predicted, can go horribly wrong.

Going over offensive pressure with offensive pressure is not necessarily a bad thing. I daresay that Zangoose's really threatening set always involves Swords Dance, be it a sheer all out attacking set or a Flail set. Even without that approach, there are things that can live a hit at +2 and reply with a killing blow, and a fair bit of things that wall what it commonly runs entirely, such as Hitmontop and Donphan or the former, or Solrock/Armaldo on the latter, unless you're going to put Iron Tail into the equation. As much as stuff like Blastoise are 2HKOed and can't do stuff back, there is this one lovely little tool called Counter that catches these physical Attackers off guard. Isn't this how it goes with the effectiveness of the bulky Grass types being effective checks to stuff like Kingler and Crawdaunt even if they get shrekt in two hits anyways? I suppose since they get recovery and Giga Drain, it's a different story. 

 

Also, what can Zangoose come in, threaten out, and set up a Swords Dance on? I suppose there are such things, but are they common enough to merit the ease of Zangoose setting up? Can it set up multiple times in a match, even? I suppose it'd involve mono-Toxic walls or something.