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Time clause exists. It nearly invalidates stall as a playstyle in tournaments, and is easily exploitable in order to DQ people on the bracket. It fucks with naturally slower metagames. And worst of all, it's just downright unfun.

 

We have the rule which states people are allowed to press the AFK timeout button if it appears, which helps resolve the issue of people taking 3 minutes per move.

 

With all of this in mind, why the fuck does time clause still exist? Get rid of it.

 

Discuss.

Edited by Senile
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We have the rule which states people are allowed to press the AFK timeout button if it appears, which helps resolve the issue of people taking 3 minutes per move.

 

 

Pretty sure it's 70 seconds in MMO right now, which as I mentioned after Doc AFK'd Keith in TT finals, is not a good amount of time to get DQ'd for.

Showdown gives 3 minutes. A lot of extra time to calc and if your internet is on the slow side, get fucked kid.

 

As far as I know, Time Clause is only there to keep tournaments to reasonable time(Few hours?)

 

The fact of the matter is:

 

It nearly invalidates stall as a playstyle in tournaments

 

 

Which should not be the case in a competitive atmosphere.

 

Support.

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Pretty sure it's 70 seconds in MMO right now, which as I mentioned after Doc AFK'd Keith in TT finals, is not a good amount of time to get DQ'd for.

Showdown gives 3 minutes. A lot of extra time to calc and if your internet is on the slow side, get fucked kid.

 

As far as I know, Time Clause is only there to keep tournaments to reasonable time(Few hours?)

 

The fact of the matter is:

 

 

Which should not be the case in a competitive atmosphere.

 

Support.

Yeah, AFK timeout is a bit short, but it's still significantly less exploitable than time clause. Plus, in the recent UU tournament, it had both the AFK timeout rule AND time clause; which is unacceptable in every sense.

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With all of this in mind, why the fuck does time clause still exist? Get rid of it.

I was pretty sure it didn't exist anymore, since the "afk timeout" rule was introduced. But roflmao when 2 of the best players got DQ'd for using a legit, viable playstyle while not forcing an endless battle...

 

It annoys stallers, so i'm totally fine with it i guess.

Eye for an eye.

Stallers are annoyed by powerhouses that break their walls (Herabrah/ Metabrah/ Gyara in OU, Kingler/ Azu/ Hari and a shitton more in UU). Seriously, stall used to annoy me as well, but this is not an argument to introduce the clause that allows some certain players to suicidebomb the stronger players (a'ka Yettostyle).

 

Support. It should vanish.

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Some good discussion here, I hope to see some more voiced opinions from other players too. I just want to ask though, there have been matches that have or have had the potential to go on for over 2 hours. If this was to happen in the first/second/third round it could hold up the bracket for other players and prolong the tournament. Tournaments go on for roughly 3-4 hours, so if we were to do away with time clause there could be a huge amount of time added to tournament lengths. Is that something that would bother people?

I know a lot of Europeans have to stay up until 3-5am when they do tournaments so this could be a potential issue for them. On the other hand I respect the fact that a stall team is a legitimate strategy (albeit not a popular one) and I see that people may feel it is unfair to be punished for adopting that strategy. It can also be unfair for the other opponent that hasn't actually brought a stall team and is DQ'd alongside them (although this is something separate to getting rid of time clause altogether.) The above is just my own opinion and thoughts on the matter so far. 

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I was pretty sure it didn't exist anymore, since the "afk timeout" rule was introduced. But roflmao when 2 of the best players got DQ'd for using a legit, viable playstyle while not forcing an endless battle...

 

Stallers are annoyed by powerhouses that break their walls (Herabrah/ Metabrah/ Gyara in OU, Kingler/ Azu/ Hari and a shitton more in UU). Seriously, stall used to annoy me as well, but this is not an argument to introduce the clause that allows some certain players to suicidebomb the stronger players (a'ka Yettostyle).

 

Support. It should vanish.

 

That wasn't supposed to be taken seriously, i thought you guys were better than that  :D

Btw, isn't there a way to set the time clause to off? iIrc it should be possible.

Are talking about not having that in official tournaments? because i'm totally fine with that, what senile told makes perfect sense.

 

As robo said, we don't need it when we already have the afk button

 

Edit; so i guess i support this (i do, seriously), i have boomlax anyway.

Edited by Vaeldras
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Why does time clause exist?

 

Because, unlike later gens, offence in pokemmo is pretty shit. No damage amplifying items but the good old Choice Band. Not enough entry hazards to punish stall and safe switches. Sure, that does not mean using stall is a crime. But when a match goes on for 45 minutes during tournament time, and then it goes on for over an hour outside the tournament time, there is a problem. Someone is intentionally stalling, wasting time, with no end purpose or viable offensive output. That is far from a strategy, it is just a cringeworthy match.

 

Events usually take a long time, and they are run by a group of people who are VOLUNTEERING for this game, giving up their free time event after event to ref some spoiled brats towards the end of a tournament. When somebody deliberately stalls without a game plan or without a purpose, he delays the entire event. It is only normal to take one hour at most per round. Even so, staff members and players go way beyond their bedtime.

 

Running stall, you are running the risk of delaying an official and you should bear the responsibility of being disqualified for making 30+ people wait for you, which means that you are out if you fail to win within 45 minutes. If you run stall, it is important to have a strategy to beat other stall teams as well, rather than wasting time and playing for PP stall.

 

The AFK timeout, however, should be reduced to around 30-40 seconds to work well with the 45 minute time clause, to make sure a player is not wasting 70 seconds per turn just to get his opponent disqualified.

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The AFK timeout, however, should be reduced to around 30-40 seconds to work well with the 45 minute time clause, to make sure a player is not wasting 70 seconds per turn just to get his opponent disqualified.

That is of course if actually the stuff would impliment something like a timer so we wouldnt have the pressure to assume how time we have left before we get the afk'edt. [See PBC]

Also:

[spoiler]I Know all of you ppl have thought of it... while you waiting for opponent to move a cancel button would be amazing to be there[See showdown]...[/spoiler]

Edited by liotec
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Why does time clause exist?

 

Because, unlike later gens, offence in pokemmo is pretty shit. No damage amplifying items but the good old Choice Band. Not enough entry hazards to punish stall and safe switches. Sure, that does not mean using stall is a crime. But when a match goes on for 45 minutes during tournament time, and then it goes on for over an hour outside the tournament time, there is a problem. Someone is intentionally stalling, wasting time, with no end purpose or viable offensive output. That is far from a strategy, it is just a cringeworthy match.

 

Events usually take a long time, and they are run by a group of people who are VOLUNTEERING for this game, giving up their free time event after event to ref some spoiled brats towards the end of a tournament. When somebody deliberately stalls without a game plan or without a purpose, he delays the entire event. It is only normal to take one hour at most per round. Even so, staff members and players go way beyond their bedtime.

 

Running stall, you are running the risk of delaying an official and you should bear the responsibility of being disqualified for making 30+ people wait for you, which means that you are out if you fail to win within 45 minutes. If you run stall, it is important to have a strategy to beat other stall teams as well, rather than wasting time and playing for PP stall.

 

The AFK timeout, however, should be reduced to around 30-40 seconds to work well with the 45 minute time clause, to make sure a player is not wasting 70 seconds per turn just to get his opponent disqualified.

Well said Keith, don't want this reply to go unseen in this discussion.

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Why does time clause exist?

 

Because, unlike later gens, offence in pokemmo is pretty shit. No damage amplifying items but the good old Choice Band. Not enough entry hazards to punish stall and safe switches. Sure, that does not mean using stall is a crime. But when a match goes on for 45 minutes during tournament time, and then it goes on for over an hour outside the tournament time, there is a problem. Someone is intentionally stalling, wasting time, with no end purpose or viable offensive output. That is far from a strategy, it is just a cringeworthy match.

 

Events usually take a long time, and they are run by a group of people who are VOLUNTEERING for this game, giving up their free time event after event to ref some spoiled brats towards the end of a tournament. When somebody deliberately stalls without a game plan or without a purpose, he delays the entire event. It is only normal to take one hour at most per round. Even so, staff members and players go way beyond their bedtime.

 

Running stall, you are running the risk of delaying an official and you should bear the responsibility of being disqualified for making 30+ people wait for you, which means that you are out if you fail to win within 45 minutes. If you run stall, it is important to have a strategy to beat other stall teams as well, rather than wasting time and playing for PP stall.

 

The AFK timeout, however, should be reduced to around 30-40 seconds to work well with the 45 minute time clause, to make sure a player is not wasting 70 seconds per turn just to get his opponent disqualified.

DAE OFFENSE IS SHIT? XD

 

You don't need offensive output, that's not the purpose of this game. The purpose of a true stall team is, and always has been, to "not die" longer than the opponent. And don't give me this "later gens" bullshit; I have seen, and been a part of, many several hundred turn Gen 6/5 battles that take like an hour, and sometimes the stallfests weren't even from 2 stall teams, it just happened to become a stall-off. The fact of the matter is, unless at least one person is using the most hardcore of offense team, sometimes matches just turn into stalls, not even accounting for the fact that stall is a viable strategy in and of itself. To say that something "isn't strategy" because you don't like it, and to imply that stalling is intentionally wasting time is ridiculous.

 

You're basically saying that if someone runs stall, they're not "allowed" to run stall, because fuck them. Which is, of course, absurd. PP stalling simply happens.

 

I'm not even going to address the suggestion of reducing AFK timeout time lol.

 

When I see this post, I see someone flailing around bitching about stall, and trying desperately to justify a rule which exists to cripple it as a playstyle. No, PokeMMO is not some super special snowflake where stall is the god tier playstyle #1 of all timz, and even if it was, time clause is not at all a valid way of addressing that. The only part of your post that holds any salt is the time taken to host events, and when you get right down to it, tournaments just take a long fucking time. That's just how it is. Time Clause might help that slightly, but basically disallowing a playstyle in what's supposed to be a competitive format is frankly unacceptable.

 

Of course, even if it's unacceptable, we still don't want tournaments taking too long; Which is why pressing the AFK timeout button is allowed, to help reduce the length of matches. The AFK timeout system is pretty shitty, granted, but it's significantly LESS shitty than the time clause method, because it actually allows stall to be played, and can't be abused to DQ people in a kamikaze attack.

 

The fact of the matter is, the only argument there really is for time clause is the concern with tournaments taking too long, but time clause as it is now is waaaay too easily exploitable and damaging to the competitive environment of tournaments, and with the alternative AFK timeout method existing that isn't as stupidly simple to cheat in, there's really no justification.

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DAE OFFENSE IS SHIT? XD
 
You don't need offensive output, that's not the purpose of this game. The purpose of a true stall team is, and always has been, to "not die" longer than the opponent. And don't give me this "later gens" bullshit; I have seen, and been a part of, many several hundred turn Gen 6/5 battles that take like an hour, and sometimes the stallfests weren't even from 2 stall teams, it just happened to become a stall-off. The fact of the matter is, unless at least one person is using the most hardcore of offense team, sometimes matches just turn into stalls, not even accounting for the fact that stall is a viable strategy in and of itself. To say that something "isn't strategy" because you don't like it, and to imply that stalling is intentionally wasting time is ridiculous.
 
You're basically saying that if someone runs stall, they're not "allowed" to run stall, because fuck them. Which is, of course, absurd. PP stalling simply happens.
 
I'm not even going to address the suggestion of reducing AFK timeout time lol.
 
When I see this post, I see someone flailing around uguuing about stall, and trying desperately to justify a rule which exists to cripple it as a playstyle. No, PokeMMO is not some super special snowflake where stall is the god tier playstyle #1 of all timz, and even if it was, time clause is not at all a valid way of addressing that. The only part of your post that holds any salt is the time taken to host events, and when you get right down to it, tournaments just take a long fucking time. That's just how it is. Time Clause might help that slightly, but basically disallowing a playstyle in what's supposed to be a competitive format is frankly unacceptable.
 
Of course, even if it's unacceptable, we still don't want tournaments taking too long; Which is why pressing the AFK timeout button is allowed, to help reduce the length of matches. The AFK timeout system is pretty shitty, granted, but it's significantly LESS shitty than the time clause method, because it actually allows stall to be played, and can't be abused to DQ people in a kamikaze attack.
 
The fact of the matter is, the only argument there really is for time clause is the concern with tournaments taking too long, but time clause as it is now is waaaay too easily exploitable and damaging to the competitive environment of tournaments, and with the alternative AFK timeout method existing that isn't as stupidly simple to cheat in, there's really no justification.

Well, I guess now we all know the type of team that Senile has been making lately
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I think there is a point where we need to draw the line between small pokemmo community and mlg pro comp pro pokemon community. Time clause makes the game more accessible for those volunteering, those putting hours into the game, and there really aren't many people doing so. Id rather see this be decided upon community decision rather than some corny discussion about how stalling for an hour is a viale strategy (I'm not saying it isn't, don't attack me).

Edited by DrCraig
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I think there is a point where we need to draw the line between small pokemmo community and mlg pro comp pro pokemon community. Time clause makes the game more accessible for those volunteering, those putting hours into the game, and there really aren't many people doing so. Id rather see this be decided upon community decision rather than some corny discussion about how stalling for an hour is a viale strategy (I'm not saying it isn't, don't attack me).

You're so right Craig. At the end of the day, the competitive scene is composed of two differing player groups: casual players, and the hardcore MLG players. A common ground needs to be found in order to appeal to both player groups because, while each group is individually important, the majority reigns supreme. 

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I think there is a point where we need to draw the line between small pokemmo community and mlg pro comp pro pokemon community. Time clause makes the game more accessible for those volunteering, those putting hours into the game, and there really aren't many people doing so. Id rather see this be decided upon community decision rather than some corny discussion about how stalling for an hour is a viale strategy (I'm not saying it isn't, don't attack me).

There's also the point where we can't ignore easily exploitable rules. Yes, it is very, very, very easy to just stall someone out until time clause and DQ them. This isn't even the kind of thing that's like "oh, well, someone COULD do X maybe someday!", it's literally already happened. It's not that hard, and rewards anyone with multiple team members who are willing to help out with something like that. As long as the kamikaze attacker isn't too far off from a potential target on the bracket, it's ridiculous how easily someone can get themself and another person time claused.

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I guess it depends on how you see it. I don't see playing for PP stall as strategic, but on the other hand it never really gives me much trouble. The only endless matches happen between people who both run these ultra defensive cores. And so be it, let them play it out until the one who bought the most PP Maxes wins.

 

But leaving this aside, the biggest problem remains hosting. Since officials are not automated, I think they take long enough even with time clause enforced, and nobody really wants them to take longer. The exploitability of the rule remains a problem, and i think it can be adressed with a change in the timer system.

Edited by OldKeith
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I guess it depends on how you see it. I don't see playing for PP stall as strategic, but on the other hand it never really gives me much trouble. The only endless matches happen between people who both run these ultra defensive cores. And so be it, let them play it out until the one who bought the most PP Maxes wins.

 

But leaving this aside, the biggest problem remains hosting. Since officials are not automated, I think they take long enough even with time clause enforced, and nobody really wants them to take longer. The exploitability of the rule remains a problem, and i think it can be adressed with a change in the timer system.

I don't think the timer needs to be decreased at all. If anything, it could stand to go up a bit. Not only that, but adjusting the timer isn't really an option to fix time clause right now regardless, because that would require an update, and seeing as everyone here knows saying "let's fix it in the next update" is akin to saying "let's never do anything about this", that's not a valid option. The problem needs to be addressed now.

 

Also, I could even argue that time clause could potentially make some tournaments drag longer; Since the rule is easily exploitable, it will encourage people to try and abuse it by timing their opponents. If this becomes a rather common problem, then you'll have very common 30-45 minute matches from people trying to AFK timeout each other, which is ridiculous.

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I guess it depends on how you see it. I don't see playing for PP stall as strategic, but on the other hand it never really gives me much trouble. The only endless matches happen between people who both run these ultra defensive cores. And so be it, let them play it out until the one who bought the most PP Maxes wins.

 

But leaving this aside, the biggest problem remains hosting. Since officials are not automated, I think they take long enough even with time clause enforced, and nobody really wants them to take longer. The exploitability of the rule remains a problem, and i think it can be adressed with a change in the timer system.

I think you can walk into a match with one strategy, but midway through the match, you may see that your best remaining strategy (or often times, only possible strategy) is to stall. I don't see anything inherently wrong with this - winning is better than losing, and if your choices are to stall or lose, then it's an easy choice.

 

I think something being overlooked here (might have been mentioned once, i dk) is that its not just stallers being punished by time clause, but those who are playing stallers and hanging with them. It's not easy hanging around w/a stall team for 45 minutes if you yourself aren't running stall, but they're the ones who are getting dq'd along with stall players in these time clause scenarios. It's too easily exploitable, and it needs to go IMO. I've felt this way for a while

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Seeing as the only solutions I have would require an update, I don't see how without one we can fix this problem.

 

I think it should be the host's decision if to use the clause or not, depending on how much free time they have. Without them, there are no events.

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Seeing as the only solutions I have would require an update, I don't see how without one we can fix this problem.

I think it should be the host's decision if to use the clause or not, depending on how much free time they have. Without them, there are no events.

Yes.

I hate to be the " it's just a game, I have a life" type but this clause really effects the volunteer hosts and the dedicated players. Some people have restricted schedules, and I know one can easily throw around "well then don't play" but that's taking away from the player base. Senile you really do not play enough to know the hours people put into this and it would really be a slap in the face if they cannot participate in events where people are "exploiting the pp stall playstyle" and "gotta get that win." It's just a game for some, and to some winning is a little more. Maybe a time clause extension should be worked out, but no time limit is inconsiderate to the average player. Edited by DrCraig
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Yes.

I hate to be the " it's just a game, I have a life" type but this clause really effects the volunteer hosts and the dedicated players. Some people have restricted schedules, and I know one can easily throw around "well then don't play" but that's taking away from the player base. Senile you really do not play enough to know the hours people put into this and it would really be a slap in the face if they cannot participate in events where people are "exploiting the pp stall playstyle" and "gotta get that win." It's just a game for some, and to some winning is a little more. Maybe a time clause extension should be worked out, but no time limit is inconsiderate to the average player.

Your argument is coming from the perspective that time clause significantly decreases the length of tournaments, and not having it would significantly increase their length. I don't think this chain of reasoning is correct, and I doubt that not having time clause would change the length of tournaments THAT much. You're also severely exaggerating the use of "PP Stall playstyle", as if that's even a thing. PP stalls happen, but I've never seen a good stall team with the express purpose of turning every match into a PP stall, kek.

 

Your argument is from the premise that time clause helps with the length of tournaments, and that removing it significantly lengthens them. However, I see this as an imaginary issue; In other words, you're arguing against an actual problem (The limiting of a specific playstyle, the abuse of a rule to unfairly DQ people, even those who aren't running stall themselves) with what could potentially be a problem (MAYBE tournaments will drag on longer). It's ridiculous from my perspective that the best argument against fixing a clause which causes very obvious and known problems is that if we remove it, maybe something negative would happen. I even pointed out earlier that time clause could potentially result in tournaments being artificially lengthened due to people purposely attempting to enact time clause.

 

Also, you're ignoring the fact that yes, some people do actually enjoy playing stall, and limiting their ability to play also impedes their enjoyment in the game in the same way you argue that longer tournaments can impede the abilities of others to enjoy the game. Some people are going to have their enjoyment of the game limited no matter what we do, but in this case, I think it's better to go with the route that addresses the major and glaring flaws instead of ignoring the flaws because maybe something negative will happen possibly kinda sorta.

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