DoubleJ Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Curse Cow (Careful) 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef - Curse - Body Slam - Earthquake / Fire Punch - Milk Drink / Rest In my opinion, this is the biggest threat to the Underused Tier right now. With the recent bans of Marowak, Machamp, Tauros, and Dodrio, Miltank has an even easier time of setting up a dangerous curse without fearing a hard hitting Choice Band or Swords Dance boosted attack from the aforementioned banned pokemon. Sure we still have a lot of hard hitters in the game, but outside of the bulky physical hitters like Poliwrath, Kangaskhan, Golem, Granbull, Kabutops, and Sandslash, there isn't much that can threaten a +1 Curse Miltank. A base 80 attack holds the cow back a bit, but fortunately +1 covers that up. The only reliable way of stopping this cow from Curse sweeping you like it's Snorlax is good old Toxic, but even then some variants might choose to run Rest over Milk Drink to prevent this from becoming a problem. So let's run some scenarios out. A 6x31 IV Level 50 Miltank has the following stats with the above EV Spread: HP - 202 Att - 100 Def - 126 SpAtt - 54 SpDef - 134 Spe - 120 [spoiler] Against a Bulky Poliwrath, Curse Cow is faster and will get a Curse off before it even gets hit... 252+ Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 68-84 (33.6 - 41.5%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery With Milk Drink it can simply stall out Poliwrath or start a bulk up war. Without any recovery, it's like that Poliwrath will lose this match-up. Belly Drum Wrath though can cause Curse Cow some serious trouble though, so don't forget that. *At -1 Speed Curse Cow still hits a stat of 90, which means it could potentially outspeed Poliwrath after a curse. Against a CB Kangaskhan, Curse Cow can just simply make it look silly. 252 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 67-81 (33.1 - 40%) -- 30.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 0 Atk Miltank Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 73-87 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Think about this with Milk Drink, it can take two hits, Milk Drink, then Curse again to reach +2. Kangaskhan with a Choice Band is essentially set-up bait. If you even think about Double-Edge, then Curse Cow can just drink some wholesome milk while watching you kill yourself. Now against a CB Golem, things get interesting. This is where you will have to decide whether you want coverage against the majority of your checks and counters (Earthquake) or rely on Fire Punch so that you can actually touch Misdreavus (seen) and Haunter (rare). +252 Spe Golem is ofc slower than a neutral 0 invested speed Miltank, so you will always get an opportunity to Curse. 252 Atk Choice Band Golem Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 73-87 (36.1 - 43%) -- 96.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 0 Atk Miltank Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 76-90 (49 - 58%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO Again, Golem with a Choice Band is mere set-up bait and can be stopped by an Earthquake... but Golem has one thing going for it. 252 Atk Choice Band Golem Explosion vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 243-286 (120.2 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Granbull is an excellent option to slow down Miltank because of Intimidate and Bulk-Up, meaning it can switch in with intimidate and keep pace with Curse because of Bulk-up. Unfortunately Granbull lacks recovery so unless played well, you might be a tad bit behind, especially if you run Double-Edge over Return, or decide to go ham with Superpower. Granbull is a reasonable check though. Sandslash is bulky enough to take a couple boosted Body Slams and retaliate with Swords Dance boosted STAB EQ's, but as stated before, you won't last very long so make sure you play well and try to Swords Dance on predicted Milk Drinks. Kabutops is very similar to Sandslash, but it will be taking Super Effective EQ's (200 BP) vs STAB Body Slams (120 BP). Play wisely. Most other physical attackers will have to play the hit and run game because they won't be able to take 2 +1 Body Slams, or they will need to rely on a Toxic stall strategy to wear out this beast. Cow is simply too strong in my opinion, so please, let's ban it. [/spoiler] Shaniqualela, Leandro, dedegendut and 8 others 11 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 more calcs [spoiler] hitmonlee 252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 186-222 (92 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO however if you run a mear 100 def invest 252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 100 Def Miltank: 168-200 (83.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO if miltank runs rest or or sitris it can win due to the -1 att stages from super. cb breloom is a check 252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 216-254 (106.9 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO 0 Atk Miltank Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 58-69 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO cb harri or sleept talk + whirlwind is a counter 252+ Atk Choice Band Hariyama Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 204-242 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO defensive hitmontop /w toxic has a chance but only if milk drink not rest. curse cradilily can pp stall out miltank since neither can kill eachother even with a crit, however this only works if cradilily has more pp + time clause is a thing. defensive altaria can toxic stall out miltank, however if rest this does not work. cm slowking wins 1v1, however if miltank runs b slam instead of return it is almost sure to win due to para. impish max def scizor wins if you run EQ>fire punch cb steelix can boom 252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Explosion vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 225-265 (111.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (not that it counts as a counter) also muk. azzu counts as check 252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 146-174 (72.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery haunter & missy laugh at normal move + EQ miltank defensive SD kingler looks good a a counter but no healing other then rest hurts. haze blastoise perish lapras defensive SD armaldo wins but no healing toxic/mean look umbreon wins if miltank stays in shuckle donphan but no healing [/spoiler] main problem i see is miltank can boost it's att + def and nearly everything that can beat it attacks with phsyical attacks. there is no goo special fight move so your stuck using a neutral stab vs a poke with offensive pressure + insta healing options. deffinately S class possibly uber in UU. needs to be looked at for sure. Link to comment
Goku Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I agree, while banning most of the pokes alot of people use,they can just aswell ban miltank from the UU tier. karimologia 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Good Arguments Totally overlooked Haze on Blastoise, which is a great option. Especially if you carry Toxic as well. Perish Lapras is another good option. As for the Breloom + Hitmonlee options, you basically need to come in without taking a hit. Otherwise Cow can open Body Slam and do 50% damage to Hitmonlee. There is also the risk of Paralysis. Once Hitmonlee or Breloom can come in, you are likely going to be +2 or higher. Non-CB loom with Spore/Focus Punch is pretty mean to Cow though. Azumarill runs the same risk of being slower than Cow, letting it +1 or +2 before it gets a Superpower off. It's an interesting dance. Just having cow though pretty much forces these hitters to use Superpower which means an easy prediction. Scizor is a great option as EQ to me is the better option. It can run Swords Dance + Superpower which means run away Cow. Armaldo is going to take some damage before it kills Cow and possibly be crippled for the match. Shuckle is solid, especially with Toxic. Donphan is meh unless you run max speed and go with Superpower, but again, prediction danger with a CB lock. 252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 84-100 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 136-162 (67.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Cow can basically set-up on anything with at least one curse, heal away damage and either outright start attacking or continue for more curses. Paralysis risk with body slam is always stupid scary and a smart player will not go for curses until they see the opponents full team, meaning no squishy physical attackers should switch in on Cow. EQ vs Fire Punch is the only real downfall, but this takes a bit of scouting and also prayer that when Cow starts to put in work, you're counter isn't dead. EDIT: Presumably irrelevant here (Senile incoming), but Smogon has this pokemon as a borderline poke in Gen 4. This means that it was deemed too strong for UU even with their access to even more attacking options, even more status options, and even more priority options. The cow is advantageous and again, in my opinion, a bit too strong for PokeMMO UU. Edited March 13, 2015 by DoubleJ fredrichnietze 1 Link to comment
Anjovies Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 As for the Breloom + Hitmonlee options, you basically need to come in without taking a hit. Otherwise Cow can open Body Slam and do 50% damage to Hitmonlee. There is also the risk of Paralysis. IIC weelee has limber fredrichnietze 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 IIC weelee has limber Meant to indicate that the risk of paralysis is too scary for breloom to switch in. Hitmonlee is just terrified in general cuz of 2hko. Switches in and you body slam, there goes 50% health. Switch out when it's almost guaranteed to Superpower. you have a huge advantage here. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 weelee \o/ I was doing some calcs, and 252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Miltank: 204-242 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Miltank: 134-162 (66.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (implying WEELEE switches on a cursing Miltank, but I seriously doubt it would run a 252/252+ nature, so more relevant scenario) 252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ Def Miltank: 168-200 (83.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (same calcs can go as follow for a CB Hariyama, but it's more threatening than WEELEE due to low speed [allows to run Adamant nature] and guts- I still wonder why Machamp got the iron boot of ghay and Hari didn't, cuz Hari is imo, much better...) If such an insane powerhouse as CB WEELEE cannot kill a Miltank that DOES NOT resist it's STAB CB Superpower, something is wrong. It's fast, it's strong and it hits hard. Too hard? Welp. Hard to say. I guess we will see soon enough. Vaeldras 1 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I was doing some calcs, and 252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Miltank: 204-242 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Miltank: 134-162 (66.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (implying WEELEE switches on a cursing Miltank, but I seriously doubt it would run a 252/252+ nature, so more relevant scenario) 252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 4+ Def Miltank: 168-200 (83.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (same calcs can go as follow for a CB Hariyama, but it's more threatening than WEELEE due to low speed [allows to run Adamant nature] and guts- I still wonder why Machamp got the iron boot of ghay and Hari didn't, cuz Hari is imo, much better...) If such an insane powerhouse as CB WEELEE cannot kill a Miltank that DOES NOT resist it's STAB CB Superpower, something is wrong. It's fast, it's strong and it hits hard. Too hard? Welp. Hard to say. I guess we will see soon enough. Until its choice band miltank that outspeeds WEELEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 Since it's pretty obvious that the best option for dealing with Miltank, outside of Toxic, is repeated physical blasts, we might begin to see those 252/252+ Def miltanks. Especially considering two of our best Special sweepers got banned, leaving us with only a couple set-up special sweepers. Miltank can tank most other special hits, and with Thick Fat provides even more special def. [quote name="BurntZebra" post="1013489" timestamp="1426281365"] Until its choice band miltank that outspeeds WEELEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE[/quote] Quit playin', you know your miltank will be all wall status Link to comment
RysPicz Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 with Thick Fat provides even more special def. Not necessarily; It also provides an additional boost to defense against Fire Punch/ Blaze kick and Ice Punch, all of which are common moves in UU. I'd insert JoshLindsay's video about cows to show my opinion but I can't find it, sorry I'm after few beers Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 More coverage against your weelee brah. Cow op Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Proposing a direct ban to a new tier called Anything Goes with Parasect might find more support and would be more easily justified imo RysPicz 1 Link to comment
Bestfriendss Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 My verdict, BAN THAT COW FROM UU!!!! I don't see a counter argument, JJ is right, this milkmonster needs to get a wack from Tranz's Gold Hammer! In all seriousness though, what counters the cow other than toxic (which it can heal bell off), or a WoW (Heal Bell again). That CurseTank is a nightmare and should be punished for that! Speaking of cows, I am thirsty from this rant, does anyone else want Moo moo milk? (I just had to relax the situation...) DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
JonazDK Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Curse cow looks like encore bait ^^ Link to comment
Bestfriendss Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Curse cow looks like encore bait ^^ Wynunt ban Dairy Queen's own nightmare??? That cow needs to be stopped, way too OP! Almost close to no one is an Encore master, except for JonazDK. The Encore Nightmare VS. Dairy Queen's Worst Nightmare Who is going to win? Lets be a bit serious here, Miltank deserves a better rank, like BL! This cow deserves to be kicked out of UU due to its overpowered (Curse/Heal Bell/Milk Drink) Set. If you make the ghost type faint, you can curse everything out and Body slam it to death. Even the Encore Jonaz might have a bit of some trouble taking this beast down. I am starting to think that Miltank is bribing the Tier list council members with free tasty smoothies from the Dairy Miltank Queen.... Miltank, me and DoubleJJ are willing to continue complaining about you and eventually take you down! BurntZebra, OldKeith, Kiliminati and 3 others 6 Link to comment
CoiNita Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Been waiting for this thread, didn't make one cause lazy. Someone already did the calcs. The bulk and speed is just too good, BAN the tank cow! Bestfriendss 1 Link to comment
OldKeith Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I'd rather see it used in UU first, it does look strong at first but I think UU can manage it. Archinix 1 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Curse cow looks like encore bait ^^ curse everything is encore bait. the 5 pp thou (8 maxed) hurts since curse cow can just pp stal by switching out whenever it gets encored. not that many encore users around to begin with in uu that are competitive. viable encore users [spoiler] clefable shuckle golduck primeape (arguably does not have space for encore on cb set) politoed poliwrath (arguably does not have space for encore) victrebell pika quagsire (does not have space for encore) azumaril (does not have space for encore on cb set) donphan [/spoiler] non viable imo encore users [spoiler] dewgong mr mime togetic vigoroth plusle minium swalot wynaut walrein ledian jmupluff spinda illumise volbeat catus thing idr name [/spoiler] Link to comment
Stegarius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Since Dodrio, Tauros, Champ and Marowak are banned, there's no way Miltank can stay in UU. it's like the Curselax of UU, after all its threats were eliminated xD Link to comment
Shaniqualela Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 curse everything is encore bait. the 5 pp thou (8 maxed) hurts since curse cow can just pp stal by switching out whenever it gets encored. not that many encore users around to begin with in uu that are competitive. viable encore users [spoiler] clefable shuckle golduck primeape (arguably does not have space for encore on cb set) politoed poliwrath (arguably does not have space for encore) victrebell pika quagsire (does not have space for encore) azumaril (does not have space for encore on cb set) donphan [/spoiler] non viable imo encore users [spoiler] dewgong mr mime togetic vigoroth plusle minium swalot wynaut walrein ledian jmupluff spinda illumise volbeat catus thing idr name [/spoiler] encore only beats the curse set, and miltank has a naturally higher speed than all of those except jumpluff DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 encore only beats the curse set, and miltank has a naturally higher speed than all of those except jumpluff agreed thats only for curse miltank, but do you normally see jolly max speed miltanks? i mean ever? Link to comment
OldKeith Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The thing about Curse Miltanks is that their base attack remains low, so they need at least 2 curses before they start being threatening. Here are possible scenarios for a Curse Body Slam Miltank: 1. It has a coverage move and Milk Drink - poisoning it will be a sure way to beat it, as it will either have to switch out at some point and lose the boosts, or try and do as much damage as it can before it dies, in which case you can wall it. 2. It has a coverage move and Rest - this can be beat with a Roar user, or switching in on your special attacker while it sleeps for damage. 3. It has Milk Drink and Heal Bell - in which case something with 4x normal resist or immunity can beat it. I have yet to see a Miltank dominating UU. The same story can be said about Umbreon, it has 95/110/130 defensive stats compared to miltank which has 95/105/70, it has Curse, recovery, attacking moves too but I never heard anyone complaining about the Curse set. Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Umbreon lacks a quality stab with a chance at status. We know stab normal attacks are mean. Bestfriendss 1 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Umbreon lacks a quality stab with a chance at status. We know stab normal attacks are mean. except when steelix is the most used pokemon in UU Robofiend 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 I still hold firm that bslam and eq is the best coverage for this thing. Ghosts are not only rare but quite easily handled as well. DrCraig and Bestfriendss 2 Link to comment
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