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Why in Gods Name is Baton Pass Banned?


Zaiara

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Is the community too stupid to realize the use of haze, roar, whirlwind, taunt, encore, trick, perish song, thunder wave, toxic, etc.?

There are so many counters to a BP team; it makes no sense to ban it when it creates so many more options for so many more pokemon.

There are a significant handful of pokemon who are soo slow and have low survivability who are simply useless without a baton passer because they will die the first turn they come out on without a buff of some sort. All baton pass is guilty of is creating more options for otherwise garbage pokemon whose stats are too low to utilize their potential movesets, adding a deeper level of strategy/countering, and making use of several moves that are otherwise going to be rarely used.

..And really you might as well just take ninjask out of the game so that nobody wastes their energy building one.

Edited by Zaiara
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Baton Pass was banned by the Tier Council after a long discussion was held with the community. It was deemed uncompetitive due the relative ease someone could begin to set up and then start a Baton Pass chain. Once the boosts were passed to a physical or special attacker there was almost nothing the opponent could do to prevent it sweeping through a team. Counters and checks were discussed for dealing with a Baton Pass team and it was decided there were not enough to justify keeping it around.

 

You are welcome to use BP in normal type duels or though as it is not banned there. It is only banned in Official Tournaments (except Doubles tournaments) and tournament mode duels. 

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Nice way to get a point across calling the community stupid, don't expect to have a good conversation in this thread now.

My heart bleeds.



Baton Pass was banned by the Tier Council after a long discussion was held with the community. It was deemed uncompetitive due the relative ease someone could begin to set up and then start a Baton Pass chain. Once the boosts were passed to a physical or special attacker there was almost nothing the opponent could do to prevent it sweeping through a team. Counters and checks were discussed for dealing with a Baton Pass team and it was decided there were not enough to justify keeping Baton Pass.

You are welcome to use BP in normal type duels or though as it is not banned there. It is only banned in Official Tournaments (except Doubles tournaments) and tournament mode duels.

There shouldn't be much you could do if you allow someone to baton pass enough times to have more speed and attack stats than anyone on your team, that's the entire point; long term strategy and <<math>>. You have to nip it in the bud. If you can't do it, go play My Little Pony's Pretty Hair Salon. BP is an integral part of pokemon and has been for a while.

You guys shouldn't be entertaining banning moves based on peoples' ineptitude to utilize the counters for it, especially when there are more than 15 moves that counter it, many of which are too situational to use without it, and a significant handful pokemon in the game who are worthless without it.

Someone is setting up a Baton pass team? Poison him, paralyze him, sleep him, roar him, whirlwind him, taunt him, perish song him. So many things shut this down. If you're going to ban BP you might as well ban something like REST, because it's far more difficult to counter.

Sorry but I'm sour because this ban is actually rather asinine. Edited by RacheLucario
Please don't double post. Use the edit button if you wish to add more content to your posts.
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..And really you might as well just take ninjask out of the game so that nobody wastes their energy building one.

I'm making one, so ha.

 

 

My heart bleeds.

If you're serious for a Baton PAss Discussion, you may want to consider being respectful. Also post in the Comp Alley.

 

 

Baton Pass was banned by the Tier Council after a long discussion was held with the community. It was deemed uncompetitive due the relative ease someone could begin to set up and then start a Baton Pass chain. Once the boosts were passed to a physical or special attacker there was almost nothing the opponent could do to prevent it sweeping through a team. Counters and checks were discussed for dealing with a Baton Pass team and it was decided there were not enough to justify keeping it around.

 

You are welcome to use BP in normal type duels or though as it is not banned there. It is only banned in Official Tournaments (except Doubles tournaments) and tournament mode duels. 

Get off the forums and go study pls & ty

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Is the community too stupid to realize the use of haze, roar, whirlwind, taunt, encore, trick, perish song, thunder wave, toxic, etc.?

alright lets look at this list.

 

Haze - Pretty much the only legitimate of the choices, but then it's taking up a moveslot, and forces you to run one of like 4 pokes that learn it, just at the chance your opponent might be running a BP team.

 

Roar - Ingrain exists, negative speed priority means free hit

 

Whirlwind - See Roar

 

Taunt - It can work sometimes I guess, but to be really useful it implies you're faster or going against something that won't wreck you. You either need to run it on every pokemon, or switch a taunt pokemon in on something presumably setting up, giving it a free boost, which could possibly spell your demise.

 

Encore -  Only works out sometimes, and again a move not many pokemon learn.

 

Trick - Broken.

 

Perish Song - what are there like 2 halfway decent pokemon that learn this move? one of them being Gengar which has the worst case of 4MSS i've ever seen in my life as is. Not to mention Mr. Mime's soundproof ass gets a good lol at this.

 

Thunder Wave - this accomplishes what now?

 

Toxic - Seriously what?

 

Also it seems you've got nothing but the thought of passing boosts in mind when you think of baton pass. One of the big reasons it was completely flat-banned instead of the silly 1 per team thing that got tried out was because shit like sub-passing with jolteon was annoying and way too easy for anyone to do with practically 0 consequences. 

Edited by Rigamorty
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Is the community too stupid to realize the use of haze, roar, whirlwind, taunt, encore, trick, perish song, thunder wave, toxic, etc.?

There are so many counters to a BP team; it makes no sense to ban it when it creates so many more options for so many more pokemon.

There are a significant handful of pokemon who are soo slow and have low survivability who are simply useless without a baton passer because they will die the first turn they come out on without a buff of some sort. All baton pass is guilty of is creating more options for otherwise garbage pokemon whose stats are too low to utilize their potential movesets, adding a deeper level of strategy/countering, and making use of several moves that are otherwise going to be rarely used.

..And really you might as well just take ninjask out of the game so that nobody wastes their energy building one.

 

 

There shouldn't be much you could do if you allow someone to baton pass enough times to have more speed and attack stats than anyone on your team, that's the entire point; long term strategy and <<math>>. You have to nip it in the bud. If you can't do it, go play My Little Pony's Pretty Hair Salon. BP is an integral part of pokemon and has been for a while.

You guys shouldn't be entertaining banning moves based on peoples' ineptitude to utilize the counters for it, especially when there are more than 15 moves that counter it, and a significant handful pokemon in the game who are worthless without it.

Someone is setting up a Baton pass team? Poison him, paralyze him, sleep him, roar him, whirlwind him, taunt him, perish song him. So many things shut this down. If you're going to ban BP you might as well ban something like REST, because it's far more difficult to counter.

Sorry but I'm sour because this ban is actually rather asinine.

 

I am going to break down your arguments with two simple statements:

 

1. Using ad hominem (slander based upon appearance rather than substance) more than likely not work. Calling the community "stupid" and telling Noad to "use math" is a way to slander the character of someone, but not relay on the main argument. Me being friends with her, I can say that she is a bright lady that has a future and doesn't resort to ad hominem statements when referencing to a point.

 

2. PokeMMO is a different meta than the other games. The reason why moves are banned is due to their unbalance in the meta. Baton Pass has almost no counters to it. Hide behind a sub, Baton Pass, your opponent can't toxic or do all the counters that you were hoping for. (also, what Rigamorty stated above my comment)

 

In summary, telling the community that we are all idiots and that you know better will only result in a fight, maybe a possible consequence because you are breaking Rule 1 clause A. If you are trying to argue a point, learn how to avoid ad hominem statements and stick to reality.

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Someone is setting up a Baton pass team? Poison him, paralyze him, sleep him, roar him, whirlwind him, taunt him, perish song him. So many things shut this down. If you're going to ban BP you might as well ban something like REST, because it's far more difficult to counter.

 

Baton Pass wasn't banned for no reason. Many of these counters aren't counters at all.

 

Poison: Blocked by Substitute, only affects the Pokemon that you statused, prevented by Taunt, healed by Lum Berries.

Paralysis: Blocked by Substitute, 75% chance of the Pokemon still being able to pass on their boosts that turn, prevented by Taunt, healed by Lum Berries.

Sleep: Blocked by Substitute, prevented by Taunt, healed by Lum Berries.

Roar: You take a hit in the process and only postpone the chain, prevented by Taunt, prevented by Soundproof, prevented by Ingrain.

Whirlwind: You take a hit in the process and only postpone the chain, prevented by Taunt, prevented by Ingrain.

Perish Song: Prevented by Taunt, the Pokemon can attack with its current boosts until they need to switch, prevented by Soundproof, low distribution.

Taunt: Prevented by Taunt, the Pokemon still has its current boosts.

Haze: You take a hit in the process, prevented by Taunt.

Encore: Prevented by Taunt.

Trick: Currently broken, prevented by Taunt, won't help at all if the Pokemon is using Baton Pass that turn.

 

On that note;

Rest: The Pokemon falls asleep unless it has a Chesto/Lum Berry, which only works once and means that the Pokemon isn't holding Leftovers. Also conveniently prevented by Taunt.

 

Overall, Baton Pass is incredibly easy to abuse, incredibly uncompetitive, and was deemed unsuitable for the metagame. Even a short chain consisting of a single boost can be a game changer, and it is very difficult to stop. While Taunt can shut down a Baton Pass chain, it can also be used by the Baton Passer to prevent that and many other things from occurring that would stop it.

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Example of arguing my case: You are an idiot!!!! You should quit PokeMMO and play albums from this Prince guy!!!

 

The reality: [spoiler]This is a great example of me using ad hominem about his picture without addressing that the picture may not be in the right setting at the right time.  He relayed the same message by telling Noad to play "My Little Ponies" instead of saying that you civilly disagree with her assessment. Thank you Pervertuga for letting me use you as an example, thanks for taking my transitory abuse and I may not like the singer, but in this context, you managed to pull off a silly sense of humour (my true feelings).[/spoiler]

 

 

 

 

Back to the main point, Baton Pass deserves to be banned because of what Rache, Rigamorty, and Noad has stated above to you. You call them all idiots, you might want to read my "example statement" and my "spoiler" tab. 

Edited by Noad
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I like how 50% of the replies are about how offended you are that you're being called stupid; this is not an ad hominem remark when you are talking about people banning something because they have inferior aptitude to deal with more complex strategical methods than "lol one pokemon at a time".

Baton pass has been debated in many games and never receives a legitimate ban in any pokemon game that is taken seriously.

The most it usually receives is a nerf to limit it to 2-4 pokes or something to that effect.

In newer generations, sound-based moves bypass a substitute (perish song, roar, confuse ray etc..) If this is not the case in PokeMMO, then there's a suggestion. Would create a heavier counter for anyone who isn't Mr. mime.

Toxic/paralyze works well if they aren't setting up subs (many baton passers don't, and they are easy to isolate in a large string of BP if that is the case).



If rooting is a problem in correlation with baton pass, the obvious solution would be not to allow baton pass to be used while ingrain is active. I, however, have not had a problem with this much in the past because if someone uses a turn rooting themselves, they have made themselves vulnerable to a lot of other countering options that turn.

At this point I'm starting to believe that the opposition to baton pass here is that people haven't played with a baton pass team to recognize the weaknesses and take advantage of them. You can screw up an entire BP team with 1 or 2 moves and it shuts the entire thing down and the BPer is then left with several useless pokemon. I don't call it stupid because I'm trying to offend people, I'm calling it stupid because a ban is actually the most simplistic, poorly thought-out solution possible and you eliminate the most utilized teamwork spell in the game that drags a bunch of otherwise crappy pokemon into a usable tier by allowing you to boost their stats before they hit the field.

BP should be receiving a nerf at best, an all-out ban is as stupid as it is lazy.

Edited by Zaiara
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I like how 50% of the replies are about how offended you are that you're being called stupid; this is not an ad hominem remark when you are talking about people banning something because they have inferior aptitude to deal with more complex strategical methods than "lol one pokemon at a time".

Baton pass has been debated in many games and never receives a legitimate ban in any pokemon game that is taken seriously.

The most it usually receives is a nerf to limit it to 2-4 pokes or something to that effect.

In newer generations, sound-based moves bypass a substitute (perish song, roar, confuse ray etc..) If this is not the case in PokeMMO, then there's a suggestion. Would create a heavier counter for anyone who isn't Mr. mime.

Toxic/paralyze works well if they aren't setting up subs (many baton passers don't, and they are easy to isolate in a large string of BP if that is the case).



If rooting is a problem in correlation with baton pass, the obvious solution would be not to allow baton pass to be used while ingrain is active. I, however, have not had a problem with this much in the past because if someone uses a turn rooting themselves, they have made themselves vulnerable to a lot of other countering options that turn.

At this point I'm starting to believe that the opposition to baton pass here is that people haven't played with a baton pass team to recognize the weaknesses and take advantage of them. You can screw up an entire BP team with 1 or 2 moves and it shuts the entire thing down and the BPer is then left with several useless pokemon. I don't call it stupid because I'm trying to offend people, I'm calling it stupid because a ban is actually the most simplistic, poorly thought-out solution possible and you eliminate the most utilized teamwork spell in the game that drags a bunch of otherwise crappy pokemon into a usable tier by allowing you to boost their stats before they hit the field.

BP should be receiving a nerf at best, an all-out ban is as stupid as it is lazy.

Okay, please do not call me nor any one that disagrees with you an "idiot", but I am going to respectfully disagree with you. PokeMMO is a whole new meta, a meta with a Gen III move-pool with a Physical/Special Split. BP is a perfect example of brokenness at its best, and who wants to carry haze around them? That would be one more extra move slot that shouldn't be necessary. PokeMMO's meta is not "broken", but at best. a different type of meta than previous metas. PokeMMO changes it meta not too commonly, but it can happen. Baton Pass is already broken as it is (as stated in my 3rd sentence) and giving it a nerf is not the answer to a broken move. 

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Example of arguing my case: You are an idiot!!!! You should quit PokeMMO and play albums from this Prince guy!!!

 

The reality: [spoiler]This is a great example of me using ad hominem about his picture without addressing that the picture may not be in the right setting at the right time.  He relayed the same message by telling Noad to play "My Little Ponies" instead of saying that you civilly disagree with her assessment. Thank you Pervertuga for letting me use you as an example, thanks for taking my transitory abuse and I may not like the singer, but in this context, you managed to pull off a silly sense of humour (my true feelings).[/spoiler]

 

 

 

 

Back to the main point, Baton Pass deserves to be banned because of what Rache, Rigamorty, and Noad has stated above to you. You call them all idiots, you might want to read my "example statement" and my "spoiler" tab. 

I'm having a lot more fun watch you try to claim white knight status and social justice warrior as you troll with strawmen.

Calling a community as a collective idiots for ruling that a move should be banned because they can't figure out the dozens of countering options is not synonymous with attacking an individual poster on their level of intelligence rather than responding to their content.

So far you've done nothing but attack my style of argument, and now you're trolling... so... "good luck being taken seriously"

Edited by Zaiara
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I like how 50% of the replies are about how offended you are that you're being called stupid; this is not an ad hominem remark when you are talking about people banning something because they have inferior aptitude to deal with more complex strategical methods than "lol one pokemon at a time".

Baton pass has been debated in many games and never receives a legitimate ban in any pokemon game that is taken seriously.

The most it usually receives is a nerf to limit it to 2-4 pokes or something to that effect.

In newer generations, sound-based moves bypass a substitute (perish song, roar, confuse ray etc..) If this is not the case in PokeMMO, then there's a suggestion. Would create a heavier counter for anyone who isn't Mr. mime.

Toxic/paralyze works well if they aren't setting up subs (many baton passers don't, and they are easy to isolate in a large string of BP if that is the case).




If rooting is a problem in correlation with baton pass, then don't allow baton pass to be used while ingrain is active. I, however, have not had a problem with this much in the past because if someone uses a turn rooting themselves, they have made themselves vulnerable to a lot of other countering options that turn.

At this point I'm starting to believe that the opposition to baton pass here is that people haven't played with a baton pass team to recognize the weaknesses and take advantage of them. You can screw up an entire BP team with 1 or 2 moves and it shuts the entire thing down and the BPer is then left with several useless pokemon. I don't call it stupid because I'm trying to offend people, I'm calling it stupid because a ban is actually the most simplistic, poorly thought-out solution possible and you eliminate the most utilized teamwork spell in the game that drags a bunch of otherwise crappy pokemon into a usable tier by allowing you to boost their stats before they hit the field.

BP should be receiving a nerf at best, an all-out ban is as stupid as it is lazy.

You seem to have missed the part about Taunt completely shutting down all of your counters to Baton Pass. It isn't that people are stupid and can't see the weaknesses in Baton Pass - it's that those weaknesses are incredibly easy to cover for. Baton pass is an incredibly low risk, high reward move.

 

While Baton Pass can be used to make a Pokemon more viable, it can also be used to make an already overpowered Pokemon into a complete monster. Passing a Swords Dance to a fast Choice Bander is easy to do and might as well be game. Additionally, many of these non-viable Pokemon can see plenty of use in the UU and NU tiers without Baton Pass.

 

When Baton Pass was first banned, there was a lot of resistance from the community. After a while, the ban was lifted and replaced with a limit of one Baton Passer per team. After a month of Baton Pass being completely off limits, when it was brought back, the community's reaction wasn't relief or happiness. A lot of people wanted it to be banned completely again - the meta was simply better without it. It's an uncompetitive strategy, and it practically eliminates the need to predict in many circumstances, particularly when the opponent switches as the Baton Passer can see what was sent out before picking what to pass to. It was deemed unhealthy for the meta and removed.

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I like how 50% of the replies are about how offended you are that you're being called stupid; this is not an ad hominem remark when you are talking about people banning something because they have inferior aptitude to deal with more complex strategical methods than "lol one pokemon at a time".

Baton pass has been debated in many games and never receives a legitimate ban in any pokemon game that is taken seriously.

The most it usually receives is a nerf to limit it to 2-4 pokes or something to that effect.

In newer generations, sound-based moves bypass a substitute (perish song, roar, confuse ray etc..) If this is not the case in PokeMMO, then there's a suggestion. Would create a heavier counter for anyone who isn't Mr. mime.

Toxic/paralyze works well if they aren't setting up subs (many baton passers don't, and they are easy to isolate in a large string of BP if that is the case).



If rooting is a problem in correlation with baton pass, the obvious solution would be not to allow baton pass to be used while ingrain is active. I, however, have not had a problem with this much in the past because if someone uses a turn rooting themselves, they have made themselves vulnerable to a lot of other countering options that turn.

At this point I'm starting to believe that the opposition to baton pass here is that people haven't played with a baton pass team to recognize the weaknesses and take advantage of them. You can screw up an entire BP team with 1 or 2 moves and it shuts the entire thing down and the BPer is then left with several useless pokemon. I don't call it stupid because I'm trying to offend people, I'm calling it stupid because a ban is actually the most simplistic, poorly thought-out solution possible and you eliminate the most utilized teamwork spell in the game that drags a bunch of otherwise crappy pokemon into a usable tier by allowing you to boost their stats before they hit the field.

BP should be receiving a nerf at best, an all-out ban is as stupid as it is lazy.

For the record, Substitute never blocked Perish Song or any sound move for that matter (it blocks damage here, but it doesn't stop stuff like Roar or Perish Song from working) so your suggestion is redundant and your statement is a sign of your mere ignorance. Even if it could go your way, Hyper Voice isn't a move that a lot of viable special powerhouses have that are viable enough to pierce from Baton Passing. Even then, Baton Pass is a free switch to something that resists it anyway. Many Baton Passers don't use Substitute? That's even worse. 

 

You not having a problem with something doesn't mean your opinion entitles the people in charge (the tier list here) to listen to what you say. I'm going to be the devil I am and be blunt here, but your flawed statements contradict your statements that make you appear as if you have experience in competitive metagames and banworthy criteria. I've pretty sure a lot of people have given their points regard your solutions to Baton Pass and they are not at all viable. 

 

This is also ignoring your borderline offensive statements. You literally just called the community stupid as the first sentence of this thread, don't go denying it or claiming people are having their jimmies rustled.

 

I'll have you know that PokeMMO and any other game have entirely different metagames. Accept the fact that this metagame doesn't have enough tools to stop Baton Pass, or ultimately have different opinions in regards to banning criteria, in which Baton Pass is (presumably) defined as an uncompetitive move that disrupts enemy momentum. "A bunch Otherwise crappy Pokemon into a usable tier". Ninjask is the only one I'd think of. What else is there? 

 

I'm having a lot more fun watch you try to claim white knight status and social justice warrior as you troll with strawmen.

Calling a community as a collective idiots for ruling that a move should be banned because they can't figure out the dozens of countering options is not synonymous with attacking an individual poster on their level of intelligence rather than responding to their content.

So far you've done nothing but attack my style of argument, and now you're trolling... so... guess what my opinion is of you.

The lattermost sentences -- no, this entire wall of text drives me to irony nirvana. What have you actually said about all the rebuttals in regards to how these counteracting options are ineffective? 

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Okay, please do not call me nor any one that disagrees with you an "idiot", but I am going to respectfully disagree with you. PokeMMO is a whole new meta, a meta with a Gen III move-pool with a Physical/Special Split. BP is a perfect example of brokenness at its best, and who wants to carry haze around them? That would be one more extra move slot that shouldn't be necessary. PokeMMO's meta is not "broken", but at best. a different type of meta than previous metas. PokeMMO changes it meta not too commonly, but it can happen. Baton Pass is already broken as it is (as stated in my 3rd sentence) and giving it a nerf is not the answer to a broken move. 

Haze is an end-all counter, there are plenty of other ones that have more practical uses other than just shutting down BP. You can't seem to grasp that you have to use them for different situations and different baton passers; kind of tell-tale about why it is banned.

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The lattermost sentences -- no, this entire wall of text drives me to irony nirvana. What have you actually said about all the rebuttals in regards to how these counteracting options are ineffective? 

That they are effective in different situations, and you have to have a strong sense of prediction to know which passers to use them on.

I messed up the wording in regards to the sub generational differences, in newer generations you cannot use sound moves against a substitute (and it's still not banned, just nerfed).

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I'm having a lot more fun watch you try to claim white knight status and social justice warrior as you troll with strawmen.

Calling a community as a collective idiots for ruling that a move should be banned because they can't figure out the dozens of countering options is not synonymous with attacking an individual poster on their level of intelligence rather than responding to their content.

So far you've done nothing but attack my style of argument, and now you're trolling... so... "good luck being taken seriously"

1. I am not a white knight, I do not flirt with women  when I think that they are wrong. If you noticed in my comments, I also praised Rigamorty for his comments. Riga is a guy as well, I praise OldKeith, Robofiend, Bowser, etc. ALL MEN and a couple of women that I also listen to!

 

2. Social Justice warrior, man you are making my day...

 

3. AD HOMINEM AT ITS FINEST!!!

 

Haze is an end-all counter, there are plenty of other ones that have more practical uses other than just shutting down BP. You can't seem to grasp that you have to use them for different situations and different baton passers; kind of tell-tale about why it is banned.

BP is an OP move for the 3rd time. Haze is an unnecessary move that is not needed. Tons of teams at the time were running haze because of this very fact. BP is not a move to reallow into the meta, unless you are ready to expect some serious consequences like every team forced to run a hazer....

 

In summary, BP is broken and is very likely to not be welcomed back to the meta any time soon.

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Haze is an end-all counter, there are plenty of other ones that have more practical uses other than just shutting down BP. You can't seem to grasp that you have to use them for different situations and different baton passers; kind of tell-tale about why it is banned.

Haze is another move that is completely blocked by Taunt. If the Baton Passer currently out doesn't have Taunt, it can attack with all of its current boosts. Depending on what that Pokemon is, it can be outright KOd before getting a chance to clear away said boosts.

 

This is a complete list of viable Pokemon with access to Haze in our meta. The ones completely unviable in the OU tier have been crossed out. The ones that actually are in the OU tier are bolded.

[spoiler]

Arbok
Weezing
Vaporeon

Crobat
Quagsire
Murkrow
Masquerain
Seviper

Blastoise
Poliwrath
Politoed

Tentacruel
Dodrio
Muk
Gengar
Kingler
Seaking

Omastar
Dragonair
Xatu
Qwilfish
Octillery

Mantine
Altaria
Feebas
Dusclops
Kingdra

[/spoiler]

 

Of the OU ones, none of these Pokemon like taking a boosted Psychic from an Espeon with Calm Mind boosts. If one of these Pokemon comes in to Haze away the boosts, it is going to take hefty damage.

+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Gengar: 746-878 (245.3 - 288.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Vaporeon: 296-349 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Weezing: 790-930 (236.5 - 278.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Dusclops: 183-216 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Kingdra: 308-363 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

Of these, only Dusclops and Vaporeon survive. Once they get a Haze off, they both have a very high probability of being KOd on the next turn.

Espeon Psychic vs. Vaporeon: 148-175 (31.9 - 37.7%)

Espeon Psychic vs. Dusclops: 92-109 (32.3 - 38.3%)

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That they are effective in different situations, and you have to have a strong sense of prediction to know which passers to use them on.

I messed up the wording in regards to the sub generational differences, in newer generations you cannot use sound moves against a substitute (and it's still not banned, just nerfed).

...That being said, do you claim to be a predicting god? To be fair, Baton Pass is also risk-free and predict-free. 

 

You misworded it again.

 

If you're going to continue on the slippery slope that if other metagames don't have it banned, it'd shouldn't be banned here, this isn't going to be worth continuing. I will note though, that aspects in future generations such as the notoriously common Stealth Rock (despite Magic Bounce), and Team Preview do hinder Baton Pass's effectiveness, particularly the latter because you're already aware of what the core is going to do. Other things (and to my speculative opinion) such as the stronger addition of priority moves with each passing generation, Choice Scarf, and other momentum buying moves such as Volt Switch and U-Turn (pray I don't start an argument about facts with this) that balance out the odds for each side to nab momentum. And we're sure not getting all of this stuff soon enough. Another thing to note is that PokeMMO Pokemon are debatably more powerful here than in the original ADV due to the splits given and all of these moves they get from future gen tutors, making for even better recipients than the original ADV games. 

Edited by YagamiNoir
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Haze is not the only counter to BP, it's just the simplest one that requires very little thought (it's a kid-mode counter). And I agree that it's not neccessarily practical for EVERYONE to be running a hazer, but what I'm saying is that you can run a hazer, OR you can utilize thunderwave/perish song/roar/whirlwind to have situational counters to certain BP teams. And honestly, in what version of pokemon is it uncommon to see a hazer? Is it supposed to be a move that you just never see? It's practical in a lot of teams, and a lot of people use it regardless of BP.

Saying that we should ban moves so that people don't have to run a counter for it really doesn't make any sense anyways, because that's really what the game is about when it comes down to it. I could just as easily say for other metas that we shouldn't be able to have special walls so that people don't have to run psyshock over psychic.

If your argument is that this meta is different, it's a poor argument. Other metas have stronger substitutes, more moves to protect a baton passer, and better buffs and they still only receive a nerf, not a ban.



Haze is another move that is completely blocked by Taunt. If the Baton Passer currently out doesn't have Taunt, it can attack with all of its current boosts. Depending on what that Pokemon is, it can be outright KOd before getting a chance to clear away said boosts.

This is a complete list of viable Pokemon with access to Haze in our meta. The ones completely unviable in the OU tier have been crossed out. The ones that actually are in the OU tier are bolded.
[spoiler]
Arbok
Weezing
Vaporeon

Crobat
Quagsire
Murkrow
Masquerain
Seviper

Blastoise
Poliwrath
Politoed

Tentacruel
Dodrio
Muk
Gengar
Kingler
Seaking

Omastar
Dragonair
Xatu
Qwilfish
Octillery

Mantine
Altaria
Feebas
Dusclops
Kingdra

[/spoiler]

Of the OU ones, none of these Pokemon like taking a boosted Psychic from an Espeon with Calm Mind boosts. If one of these Pokemon comes in to Haze away the boosts, it is going to take hefty damage.
+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Gengar: 746-878 (245.3 - 288.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Vaporeon: 296-349 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Weezing: 790-930 (236.5 - 278.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Dusclops: 183-216 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Espeon Psychic vs. Kingdra: 308-363 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Of these, only Dusclops and Vaporeon survive. Once they get a Haze off, they both have a very high probability of being KOd on the next turn.
Espeon Psychic vs. Vaporeon: 148-175 (31.9 - 37.7%)
Espeon Psychic vs. Dusclops: 92-109 (32.3 - 38.3%)

This problem that you are describing is not isolated to BP, though. The kitty makes her own calm minds, too. This problem will persist regardless as far as I can see so how is this relevant? Edited by Noad
Do not double post please
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Haze is not the only counter to BP, it's just the simplest one that receives very little though (it's a kid-mode counter). And I agree that it's not neccessarily practical for EVERYONE to be running a hazer, but what I'm saying is that you can run a hazer, OR you can utilize thunderwave/perish song/roar/whirlwind to have situational counters to certain BP teams. And honestly, in what version of pokemon is it uncommon to see a hazer? Is it supposed to be a move that you just never see? It's practical in a lot of teams, and a lot of people use it regardless of BP.

Saying that we should ban moves so that people don't have to run a counter for it really doesn't make any sense anyways, because that's really what the game is about when it comes down to it. I could just as easily say for other metas that we shouldn't be able to have special walls so that people don't have to run psyshock over psychic.

I'm not sure if this statement's going to make me come across as ignorant, but the metagame is either fully walled or fully fast paced, and debatably our best physical OU setup sweeper has Taunt, so as useful as Haze is, it isn't going to work as much as you'd think you'd like, at least not here anyway.  It does have it's notable uses, such as against slower Pokemon such as Slowbro and Snorlax, which debatably don't get crippled that much by Haze anyways, given they both don't always run setup sets and the fact that only one Hazer reliably counters the latter. 

 

That's a bad comparison you're making there. Psyshock isn't centralizing anything nor does it make the Special Walls in their respective metagames ineffective. What counters Baton Pass I'd go as far as to say is completely specific and Baton Pass users have moves that cover for the minor flaws. What are you going to propose, a complex ban? That doesn't work here, again, and you'd perhaps go through the CA (this thread is in the wrong place, even) to see how things work here. Do realize that most, if not all Baton Pass stops are mere delays, and pose no threat for the Baton Pass user whatsoever. It can try again, and more offensive Baton Pass users can hammer down the phazer easily so it will no longer be hindranced during the second setup attempt; a fact that Rachel evidenced using Espeon earlier, although she should have used +1 instead of +2, since it's the phazer's own mistake if it's to respond so late.  Espeon is a Baton Passer that can Baton Pass Calm Minds, debatably even the best. You refer to Haze as an adequate counter, and she was trying to prove my bolded statement. Haze does nothing but get rid of boosts; significant as it sounds, it can backfire into a free turn for the opponent. 

Edited by YagamiNoir
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This problem that you are describing is not isolated to BP, though. The kitty makes her own calm minds, too. This problem will persist regardless as far as I can see so how is this relevant?

Espeon is an example of a common Baton Passer. If your "perfect counter" to Baton Pass is Haze and you currently have an Espeon setting up Calm Minds or Substitutes to pass on, you're not going to be able to safely remove those boosts. Your Hazer is either going to take heavy damage when Espy attacks you predicting that Haze, or you're going to be forced out by the threat of being outright OHKOd by Psychic if you're relying on something that can't take that hit. If you wait to send out your Hazer until Espeon has passed its boosts to something else, your situation isn't much better.

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