[Discussion] Snorlax (Test banned to Ubers from April 12th to May 11th)

[Gunthug]

Nothing wrong with it since OU is so small. Espeon, Gardevoir, Ludicolo, Dusclops, Venusaur, Porygon2, Umbreon, and Bulky Sceptile (YES.), Bulky Jolteon (YES.) can all work. You don't necessarily need one wall which can take on the whole specially offensive meta. Make a core of two walls. Nothing wrong with diversity.

This is a really solid point - we're so used to a meta where 1 pokemon can wall every special attacker (lax and bliss are the only ones that really fit this). This is how its always been, right? Guess what - in future gens, there is no 1 special wall that walls every special attacker (due in part to special fighting moves like focus blast, and a ton of other reasons obviously, but that's not the point).

 

The point is, we need to get over this "1 pokemon to wall them all" philosophy and start thinking about cores that can handle special attackers. I think a suspect of lax will let us know whether this is possible, plausible, and desirable

[DrCraig]

Ludicilo stab sbomb gengar bait. Umbreon can be killed by gengar or any special attacker that hits hard. Clops is decent but again is a horrible pivot poke. It's not about getting creative. I get bashed all the time for listing gimmicky sets like breloom and gyarados.

But if you guys sit there and say they won't work what makes anything else work? It's not about op. It's about moving ou to borderline for no reason. It still meets none of the 3 criterias. And literally hindering the ou tier. And all those special walls are weak to special attacks.

Make a core. Just like how people run more than 1 defensive wall. Run two which go together if you see your team has issues.

#ThatsHowYouTeamBuild

[ShucklePwnz]

lol people still think there are other viable special walls other than Blissey if Lax is gone.

Gardevoir, Ludicolo, Dusclops all gets sh*t on by Gengar with a special attacker set.  Umbreon is just a bait to everything, maybe fully special defensive P2 could do some work but that still gets wreckt by Sludge Bomb STAB in a few turns.

 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Blissey will be in every team, but is it a problem?  Not really IMO, if Lax didn't have Curse, both special walls could be used as much, but I know complex bans ain't happening so w/e.

 

I'm all for a suspect test although I doubt the meta will be any better.

[Excelimpulse]

Make a core. Just like how people run more than 1 defensive wall. Run two which go together if you see your team has issues.
#ThatsHowYouTeamBuild

Oh so it's okay to make a core for this but not for snorlax? Unreal.

[Gunthug]

Oh so it's okay to make a core for this but not for snorlax? Unreal.

the problem with a core for snorlax is, one body slam hax and the core dissolves. At +1 or +2, the core can dissolve. At no risk to the lax user

 

edit: also, as far as "unhealthiness" goes, youre talking about a core for 1 pokemon. Craig's talking about a core for all special attackers in the tier

Edited April 5, 2015 by Gunthug

[ThinkNice]

Oh so it's okay to make a core for this but not for snorlax? Unreal.

You realize that making a core to cover the whole metagame is different than making a core for one Poke; Snorlax, right? RIGHT? Oh wait you mean Snorlax IS the whole metagame, I agree pls ban

Oh ya wasnt gonna reply to Excel postd ever again rip

[Senile]

This is a really solid point - we're so used to a meta where 1 pokemon can wall every special attacker (lax and bliss are the only ones that really fit this). This is how its always been, right? Guess what - in future gens, there is no 1 special wall that walls every special attacker (due in part to special fighting moves like focus blast, and a ton of other reasons obviously, but that's not the point).

 

The point is, we need to get over this "1 pokemon to wall them all" philosophy and start thinking about cores that can handle special attackers. I think a suspect of lax will let us know whether this is possible, plausible, and desirable

Naw, in future gens, Chansey/Blissey still pretty much wall every single special attacker not named Keldeo. The difference is that you don't need that catch all answer, with Choice Scarf pokemon being everywhere, along with large amounts of strong priority, and special attackers just not being able to do enough damage to reliably sweep a majority of the time, whereas physical sweepers with strong setup moves such as Swords Dance, or strong coverage moves like Close Combat and Stone Edge can just outdo special sweeping performance.

 

Special attackers have always been able to be easily hard stopped by 1 pokemon, it's just that Chansey/Blissey fell out of favor in teams since they just don't fit on teams that aren't hard stall in later gens, since you don't need a good stop to special attackers. Your team should naturally be able to check them in most team archetypes with scarfers or priority, usually both, or handle them with bulky resistances on more balanced teams.

[YagamiNoir]

What needs to be said has already been said throughout the discussion. While I'm still unsure as to how relevant current, theoretical discussion of a non-Snorlax dominant metagame will appear to be, what we can be sure of is that we are in need of practical results. 

 

What is the line, though -- if I may ask -- in that Snorlax absence makes the meta unhealthy? (I know I'm taking this to future seeking but hey, it has it's relevance.) The fact that it makes Blissey a necessity instead of something that's too good not to use? The amount of bans it brings? How centralizing the loss of this special wall will resort the others to find alternatives? Considering we're putting things in a more open approach. 

[Gunthug]

Naw, in future gens, Chansey/Blissey still pretty much wall every single special attacker not named Keldeo. The difference is that you don't need that catch all answer, with Choice Scarf pokemon being everywhere, along with large amounts of strong priority, and special attackers just not being able to do enough damage to reliably sweep a majority of the time, whereas physical sweepers with strong setup moves such as Swords Dance, or strong coverage moves like Close Combat and Stone Edge can just outdo special sweeping performance.

 

Special attackers have always been able to be easily hard stopped by 1 pokemon, it's just that Chansey/Blissey fell out of favor in teams since they just don't fit on teams that aren't hard stall in later gens, since you don't need a good stop to special attackers. Your team should naturally be able to check them in most team archetypes with scarfers or priority, usually both, or handle them with bulky resistances on more balanced teams.

Yeah that makes sense. I stand by my point though, that this meta w/o snorlax would either have to spam bliss, or adapt towards some of the things you mentioned, like bulky resistance cores or strong physical checks handling special sweepers. LF Scarf, tho

Edited April 5, 2015 by Gunthug

[Tyrone]

Keep the discussion focussed around Snorlax please.

 

[spoiler] So it resembles the OU tier - Flava [/spoiler]

[Excelimpulse]

Honestly if you guys want to see what the meta would be without it. Why not test it in showdown for a week and if you guys really think it's needed tell the people that think the opposite to try it and go from there. What is the harm in that? So then it's a win win. If we have access to showdown there's no reason not to use it for our advantage.

[codylramey]

Honestly if you guys want to see what the meta would be without it. Why not test it in showdown for a week and if you guys really think it's needed tell the people that think the opposite to try it and go from there. What is the harm in that? So then it's a win win. If we have access to showdown there's no reason not to use it for our advantage.

Bc with showdown we can only get but so close to what our meta is acually like. And with pokes as contraversal as lax we need as much accuracy as possible. Also not as many people would participate in such events so it would be hard to get a solid look at what the meta would be like.

[BurntZebra]

Bc with showdown we can only get but so close to what our meta is acually like. And with pokes as contraversal as lax we need as much accuracy as possible. Also not as many people would participate in such events so it would be hard to get a solid look at what the meta would be like.

Gen 4 customs is pretty close to our meta, considering you can choose whatever moves you want, even if they don't learn them in gen 4. Although a few mechanics would be slightly off like critical hits and sleep mechanics.

[DrCraig]

Honestly if you guys want to see what the meta would be without it. Why not test it in showdown for a week and if you guys really think it's needed tell the people that think the opposite to try it and go from there. What is the harm in that? So then it's a win win. If we have access to showdown there's no reason not to use it for our advantage.

How would the meta adapt in 7 Days? You need a long time frame with multiple events. Not 7 days with 2 or 3.

[Shaniqualela]

How would the meta adapt in 7 Days? You need a long time frame with multiple events. Not 7 days with 2 or 3.

it takes a day to make one comp if you grind all day, so it takes pretty long for us to adapt.

too bad nobody would actually play on showdown or it would be great

[Kiliminati]

Just read through the entirety of this thread; I find it funny how people use the statement "Blissey would become the only 'perfect' special wall in the meta-game" as a reason for not banning Snorlax. Isn't that how it was when we didn't have Snorlax in late 2014 anyway? The lack of special walls (actually, walls in general) situation is caused by the absence of gen 4 pokes, and even not having Milotic, to some extent. The Snorlax problem is an entirely separate issue.

Edit: In regards to Milotic, what I meant is that its implementation would help add another bulky water-type wall to the game, but it doesn't fix the overall problem of not having variety. Better than nothing though.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Kiliminati

[Robofiend]

stuff

 

Kili gib opinion on Snorlax test

[DoubleJ]

Test lax. Ban lax. Develop variety in play. As I said to robo in team, ou right now is curselax + gengar + 2 phys walls + 2 phys sweepers. Random players toss in a jolteon when they want to lose. Eliminating lax will open up creativity. We are too focused on stopping lax to venture away from what works. So let's see what happens.

[Kiliminati]

 

Test lax. Ban lax. Develop variety in play. As I said to robo in team, ou right now is curselax + gengar + 2 phys walls + 2 phys sweepers. Random players toss in a jolteon when they want to lose. Eliminating lax will open up creativity. We are too focused on stopping lax to venture away from what works. So let's see what happens.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lHI4B0rxNk[/media]

 

Kili gib opinion on Snorlax test

I just recently started playing again with all the new Hoenn pokemanz, but I swept literally the first opponent I faced with only my curselax because they didn't have an acceptable answer for it. You could just call that poor team building, or you could call curselax extremely over-bearing. I'm sure you and the rest of the council will make the correct decision in the end. :)

[Linken]

waiting for celebi, suicune, raikou and zapdos

 

also never used a snorlax in my comp teams...

Pikachu OP though

Edited April 6, 2015 by Linken

[Excelimpulse]

How would the meta adapt in 7 Days? You need a long time frame with multiple events. Not 7 days with 2 or 3.

Pretty sure it says in showdown in there unless I'm forgetting how to read now. I've been thinking something and call me crazy but was snorlax an issue when the big 3 were around or two of them if that? Pretty sure most of us would say no or this thread would have been made with them.

My point is, there will always be a bigger fish. No matter what we do with the amount of pokes we are missing,there will always be issues.

Banning an ou poke to use uu pokes as special walls just still makes me laugh. Using kangaskahn as a special wall to give up it's speed and attacking power is gimmicky. All of the special walls we would have left are extremely weak to special attacks. you shouldn't have to use 2-3 special walls to absorb a special attacker and then do the same for physical. Which leaves us with stall and wall inbound.

Push for the pokes we need so we can stop banning everything for this illusion that it's possible to have a balanced meta with the pokes missing.

[Robofiend]

Pretty sure it says in showdown in there unless I'm forgetting how to read now. I've been thinking something and call me crazy but was snorlax an issue when the big 3 were around or two of them if that? Pretty sure most of us would say no or this thread would have been made with them.

My point is, there will always be a bigger fish. No matter what we do with the amount of pokes we are missing,there will always be issues.

 

tl;dr "a balanced metagame is impossible so don't try". If you play later gens or even other tiers you'd see that there's not always a "bigger fish". Sometimes there are a ton of good pokemon who can be used together in different combinations to make good teams - which is what what we'd prefer to see in MMO.

 

 

Push for the pokes we need so we can stop banning everything for this illusion that it's possible to have a balanced meta with the pokes missing.

 

It's worth trying, rather than just accepting a really centralized, boring and predictable OU tier

[codylramey]

Ex, we will get new poke when we get them. No amount of pushing is going to change that. For now we have to work with what we have and deal with it. It could, and prolly will be, another year b4 we get legendaries bc the devs are creating a whole new system to catching that and right now they are working on balancing he changes made in the last update. So pushing for new pokes and items isnt an option.

 

As far as I know kangaskan is usually built for bulk in OU anyway. But Im glad you understand now that using gimiky sets to deal with something is different from "getting creative". Although there is a difference in using a gimik to deal with one pokemon (I.E. Bulky gyara with roar to deal with lax) and using a gimik to deal with a whole subset of pokemon (I.E. Careful Kangaskan, if that was even ever suggested, to deal with all special attackers.)

[Excelimpulse]

Well then as far as I'm concerned it's not worth playing a game that's always going to be broken.

And trying to create a meta when there's always going to be that bigger fish because THERE ARE SO LITTLE TO CHOOSE FROM. I just find it pointless anymore the more I thought about it.

The slippery sloap effect I think is true in our meta just because of that.

I'm not running gimmick sets because we ban 1 out of the 2 special walls we have. Ludicolo is literally begging gengar to come in now. Umbreon is begging any strong physical attacker. And building a core to stop is encouraging one style of play and destroying another.

I just find even suspect testing snorlax without thinking of the draw backs and only saying "it could change the meta" is just immature. If we had multiple special walls to pick from that's a different story and I would be for the ban If it still was pulling this power. But that isn't the case.

[DrCraig]

Every team is generic and similiar, how can you not see this?