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OU Viability Thread


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Why is Ursaring not on the ranks?

This thing is a threat to any wall, it almost always forces sacking at least one pokemon, or a risky predict of the SD because it can hit hard even without boosts.

 

I would say it fits B or B+.

 

And I agree with Keith here, Porygon 2 definitely does not fit Rank A, it fits C or B at BEST.

It can be trapped by Subversal Dugtrio but it also can revenge kill CB Dugtrio which is nice.

Another useful thing is that it doesnt force you to go Blissey everytime your opponent has Jolteon out.

 

I'd give Dugtrio Rank A, trapping Metagross and Heracross, the top tier threats is just wonderful.

People say that one of its downsides is that it gives the opponent a free chance to set up Gyarados or Charizard which can be fatal, but that also happens to any Choice Bander locked on Earthquake so I really don't get this point.

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For a status spreader it's quite terrible. The only thing it really traps back is Magneton, and it loses to it anyway if it does not carry hp fire. It gets walled by pretty much anything in the meta (Blissey, Venusaur mainly). Not to mention it adds up to the list of pokemon that fall to Dugtrio.

 

Is it supposed to be a special attacker? Because others do it better.

Is it supposed to be a wall? Because others do it better.

 

It's not seeing usage simply because it does not fit, not because people have not realised how good it is or whatever. It cannot come into choice banders, barring some exceptions like Flygon's Earthquake, it cannot damage anything properly. Pls remove from A.

 

Ya I don't see it being A material, but it certainly is viable. 

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I had P2 in A with his ability to trap CB Dugtrio, Stall out Cleric Blissey and wall Gyarados and CB Flygon (pls no Superpower). It also does very well against the notorious Gengar, On papaer it looks amazing but I guess it is lacking in practice. Anyway I'll start editing the OP if we get more discussion going.

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I had P2 in A with his ability to trap CB Dugtrio, Stall out Cleric Blissey and wall Gyarados and CB Flygon (pls no Superpower). It also does very well against the notorious Gengar, On papaer it looks amazing but I guess it is lacking in practice. Anyway I'll start editing the OP if we get more discussion going.

Thinkie pls update Snorlax ;_;

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I had P2 in A with his ability to trap CB Dugtrio, Stall out Cleric Blissey and wall Gyarados and CB Flygon (pls no Superpower). It also does very well against the notorious Gengar, On papaer it looks amazing but I guess it is lacking in practice. Anyway I'll start editing the OP if we get more discussion going.

 

 

I find that P2 is pretty consistently underrated. It's one of the tier's best defensive pivots and can abuse a ton of other pokes' abilities to make up for its "just ok" offense and other setbacks. If you look at the free switches it gets and the abilities it can take on, it's pretty hard to say this thing's B/C rank:

 

Jolteon - steals VA, stops Twave/Tbolt spam and forces it out

Gyarados - Intimidate stops Gyara from successfully setting up, with defense investment it can live multiple waterfalls and isn't afraid of a flinch like Weezing because of its access to recover

CB Dugtrio - even locked into EQ, Dugtrio's no match for a defense-invested P2. You lose against the Sub variant, however

Blissey - nothing supports a team better against stall than being able to trace natural cure from Blissey and with Twave becoming more popular, Porygon gets an A for being able to scout Blissey with the best of em

Flygon - while Superpower is crazy, a EQ-locked Flygon is no match for the god. Porygon does a great job of abusing Flygon who're trying to Revenge kill  Metagross or dodge a Thunderpunch/EQ.

Umbreon - while fairly uncommon, tracing Synchronize is a big "fuck you" to something that mostly gets by stalling and spamming Toxic

Starmie - Again, tracing natural cure can be a big benefit if Porygon gets statused somewhere along the line. Without Psychic, Starmie struggles to break Porygon with spdef investment.

Gengar - although SubPunch or SubDisable can be damaging, Porygon2 is bulky enough to take STAB Sludge Bomb and durable enough to take a hit to scout any Gengar set. While Tracing Levitate isn't inherently valuable, it can come in handy for preventing something like Aero from sweeping late game by spamming EQ to eliminate common steel types like Mag/Metagross

 

Apart from these, it also excels at stopping walls/bulky sweepers with Toxic, and doesn't mind taking status itself if it can trace NC later in the battle. I don't see Porygon2 as a "wall" so much as a great scouting tool and utility counter: it checks half of the meta really well and can patch up defensive holes on pretty much offensive teams. Honestly, Porygon2's biggest weakness is that it's so useful that it can get picked off while you're scouting an opponent or fall victim to a good prediction by your opponent.

 

Did I mention that it lives a neutral Reversal? If you're running Spikes you can mess up Subtrio pretty bad too, while other walls like Blissey face the threat of getting OHKO'd

+1 252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100+ Def Porygon2: 210-248 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100+ Def Porygon2: 316-372 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Porygon2: 300-354 (80.2 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100+ Def Porygon2: 282-332 (75.4 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

TL;DR, as a Special Wall Porygon2 is B/C rank, but as a utility/support/anti-meta poke it's hard to find anything else in OU that compares to it. I'd say it's B+ at worst.

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Update:

Snorlax A > Unranked

Heracross A+ > S

Metagross A+ > S

Gengar S > A+

Porygon2 A > B

Weezing A > A+

Dugtrio B > A

 

We need more nominations, like Robofiend did and then actual discussions on these nominations. Without discussion a Pokémon can't be placed.

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Blissey for S Rank.

 

The Burger Queen of special walls has no trouble coming in and disrupting any pure special attacker.

 

Defensively it may not seem great, but it is able to stall powerful attackers, such as unboosted Metagross, and because few attacks actually one-shot it, it can punish the respective attackers with a surprise Counter, guaranteeing a KO.

 

There is no guaranteed way for a special attacker to beat Blissey. It can run Toxic to stall them to death if they lack a substitute. It can run Seismic Toss to break the subs, given that no special attacker has the HP base high enough to make 51 HP subs. Technically, the only safe way to wrestle Blissey from a special attacker is if it runs a mono-attacking set with CM, Sub, Recovery. And even then it is not guaranteed, as Blissey can just toxic on a predicted recovery.

 

There are ways to trap it, but Blissey can answer to all of them. It stalls banded Dugtrio's Earthquakes (45.6% - 53.9%), while it can run Hail to break the sub-versal set.

 

The only pokemon that can OKHO it are rather frail and don't want to come in on a special attack or even seismic toss, due to their lack of recovery, and the absence of pivot moves such as Baton Pass, which would have given them a clean switch.

 

Everyone loves or hates Blissey. But one thing is certain - nothing walls special attacks with as much ease. 

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Venusaur for B (maybe c)

it checks a pretty big number of things, and even counters a few, while still having a decent offensive presence

it checks:

- gyarados without bounce

- blissey (leech seed recovery op)

- ludicolo

- slowbro

- starmies with surf/tbolt/recover/spin

- swampert without ice punch, or on a prediction

 

it counters: 

- jolteon, hp ice does very little

- vaporeon (getting more use since gyara is popular, and they dont even run ice beam now :D)

 

it gets pretty much destroyed by gengar though which sets it back quite a bit.

 

rhydon to B/C as well

it counters arcanine (i have only seen 1 run hp grass) and can set up a sub/sd or just hit something hard on the switch

which is all it really needs to do since arcanine is so popular.

on top of that, most weezings cant break its sub which allows it to stack up swords dances if its the sub+sd variant

very good wallbreaker.

 

kingdra to A or B

it can effectively run special/physical sets so you never know what its going to do, and it can sweep you or leave a huge dent very quickly if you guess wrong.

mixed sets have even been popping up and they work pretty well too

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Venusaur for B (maybe c)

it checks a pretty big number of things, and even counters a few, while still having a decent offensive presence

it checks:

- gyarados without bounce

- blissey (leech seed recovery op)

- ludicolo

- slowbro

- starmies with surf/tbolt/recover/spin

- swampert without ice punch, or on a prediction

 

it counters: 

- jolteon, hp ice does very little

- vaporeon (getting more use since gyara is popular, and they dont even run ice beam now :D)

 

it gets pretty much destroyed by gengar though which sets it back quite a bit.

 

rhydon to B/C as well

it counters arcanine (i have only seen 1 run hp grass) and can set up a sub/sd or just hit something hard on the switch

which is all it really needs to do since arcanine is so popular.

on top of that, most weezings cant break its sub which allows it to stack up swords dances if its the sub+sd variant

very good wallbreaker.

 

kingdra to A or B

it can effectively run special/physical sets so you never know what its going to do, and it can sweep you or leave a huge dent very quickly if you guess wrong.

mixed sets have even been popping up and they work pretty well too

 

I agree with a big part of your post. However some corrections I would make:

-Venu shuts down Ludicolo, since most Ludis are used defensively. And Venu wouldn't care much about offensive ones either. So full counter rather than check.

-Gengar doesn't really shit on Venusaur, unless it runs Psychic. Giga Drain will break the usual Gengar sub, so Gengar needs taunt to beat Venu, pretty much. And it hates landing on seeds.

 

I guess Rhydon is worthy of being in the rankings too. The sub/swords set is good, although an immediate switch into a water type scares it away. Probaby low B or high C, as you said.

 

As for Kingdra, although it can run special or physical sets, they are revealed straight away. The fact that a relatively low power Outrage locks it into a move that resisting pokemon can take advantage of, often endind up in a kill on the dragon. But it can do the trick, so B I would say - it remains a bulky attacker that can set up to outspeed the meta, which is always a powerful strategy in our meta.

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Medicham for B/B+ in my opinion. Amazing Wallbreaker with with a massive attack stat thanks to its ability ( pretty sure it's the highest around right now ), premier CB user, with access to a massive 100 BP STAB move in Hi Jump Miss Kick ( Amazingly powerful, but has lots, LOTS, of reliability problems ), really nice coverage thanks to Elemental Punches and Rock Slide that lets it hit almost the entire meta for pretty good damages ( RIP Physical Shadowball ). It has also ( to be precise it'll have cause right now seems like it's bugged ) access to a priority move in Fake Out. 
 
Other sets include Reversal ( altho, imo inferior to Hera/Blaziken cause of the lack of SD ), Bulk Up set ( altho, not exactly a bulky pokemon that can set up againt lots of things ), SubPunch set.
 
Now, some problems with it. 80 Base Speed isn't that bad since it can outspeed most walls and some slow offensive threats, but from a general view point its speed is mediocre. It's not extreemly bulky ( 60/75/75 ) and can't really switch in on many attacks without taking a fair ammount of damages thanks to its typing. Except from HJK/FP ( and Double Edge/Return ) it doesn't really have an high power move to hit pokes like Weezing or bulky ghosts ( the lack of Physical Psichic Moves hurts here ). Its most powerfull and "spammable" move isn't exactly reliable since an unexpected protect or miss can litterally cost you Medicham, plus Gengar is a pretty common threat right now and giving it a free turn will be pretty bad.

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Medi's like a less bulky Heracross with almost no resistances. I'd say it's outclassed at best, trash at worse, especially because Weezing is everywhere and Blaziken has much more threatening options to take down other walls outside of Slowbro.

 

EDIT: Lol @ Blissey for S rank. It just isn't.

Edited by Robofiend
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Medi's like a less bulky Heracross with almost no resistances. I'd say it's outclassed at best, trash at worse, especially because Weezing is everywhere and Blaziken has much more threatening options to take down other walls outside of Slowbro.
 
EDIT: Lol @ Blissey for S rank. It just isn't.


I think blissey is S or A.
And medicham maybe C.. That's kinda pushing it. It's reversal and cb sets are outclassed by hera like you said. I say C or D.

But now that you bring up blaziken, I think it could be a B, it can set up swords dances on weezing and usually get put into salac range.
The sd + 3 Attacks set is really strong as a wallbreaker early-mid game or can pull off a sweep late game if it activates salac. Nothing appreciates +2 stab high jump kick, or blaze boosted blaze kick.
It can also run reversal set although I'm not a fan of it.
And the mixed set can work out nicely.
It's an unpredictable wallbreaker immune to will o wisp, can't ask for much more, it does its jump but not really anything else.

I'm sure this is loaded with terrible grammar mistakes, I'm so damn tired
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: Lol @ Blissey for S rank. It just isn't.

 

LOL but it is.

 

S RankReserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

 

So yeah.

 

 

Edit: Speaking of S, I would remove Metagross from there.

 

Despite having a solid BST of 600, the 135 Attack Base is a bit misleading, as it only gets access to one STAB move with a terrible typing. The other moves can be played around: Thunderpunch can be baited into a ground type. Earthquake is sort of a must, and all these moves can be walled. The Agility set can sweep the late game, maybe, but Metagross relies heavily on its boosts to become efficient. It's definitely an A+, but it does not deserve the S imo.

Edited by OldKeith
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Notice a lack of kingdra. Discuss

Seen on 8.51% of teams and is the 23rd most used pokemon in OU during the snorlax ban.

I'm not really sure, that's one of those I consider you need something for - the "chesto resto". I know robofiend uses it. Dragon is resisted only by steel and if you send out steel to resist it they can hit you with waterfall.

 

Other the other hand, vaporeon and slowbro are somewhat common to take waterfalls. Between vaporeon (14.36%)/or slowbro (22.07%) and metagross (41.49%), I can see how you could lose your sweeping ability quickly. It's not really a tank or a wall either even though it has no resistances, so you'd most likely have to break the other person's core before you could make havoc with it. B+ on kingdra IMO.

 

Just speculating with you for giggles cody. cheers!  

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Lack of ursaring is disturbing. Plz fix. I know hes both become more viable and more used w/o lax. So what do you guys think?

 

if you predict a wow something's gonna die.

That normal typing + low speed won't allow it to sweep, but it punishes weezing so hard with sdance.

That's pretty much it, it's stopped cold by flygon, blaziken and heracross and anything faster should be able to deal with it after it takes something down.

Can take care of any wall that i can think of, so B+

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