OU Viability Thread

[ThinkNice]

By DrCraig

 

Welcome to the OU Viability Thread. If you do not know what a viability thread entails read further. A viability thread has as purpose to put Pokémon into 'ranks', by lack of a better term. In the OU viability rankings we base our rankings on how viable certain Pokémon in OU are. Discussion is encouraged and remember that you are always entitled to your opinion but forget not to be respectful to other community members.

 

There won't be a split between offensive/defensive/support Pokémon as this is a general viability thread. Meaning offensive and defensive Pokémon can fit into the same rank without utilizing the same role.

 

Lastly, this thread also functions as a discussion about the OU metagame. So by all means do not hold back on discussing your thought; how you think can go better, or how you think everything is already going good. Bringing underrated Pokémon up for discussion is also part of a viability thread discussion.

 

 

Hot topics:

 

 

PokeMMO OU Viability Ranking

 

(In alphabetical orders)

(definitions of each rank blatantly stolenborrowed from Smogon)

 

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

 

S Rank:

Heracross

Metagross

Snorlax

 

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

 

A+ Rank:

Gengar

Gyarados

Weezing

 

A Rank:

Arcanine

Blissey

Dugtrio

Kingdra

Slowbro

 

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

 

B+ Rank:

Cloyster

Flygon

Forretress

Jolteon

Porygon2

Skarmory

Ursaring

Vaporeon

 

B  Rank:

Ludicolo

Rhydon

 

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

 

C Rank:

Breloom

Espeon

Machamp

Umbreon

 

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

 

D Rank:

Edited May 29, 2015 by ThinkNice

[ThinkNice]

Here were my thoughts about the current top of the metagame:

 

So what I'm seeing is a lot of centralization around Dragonite. It may not be 'broken' as in overpowered but I think we should be looking at the aspect that it is limiting the metagame from evolving, at such an early stage. The only things that is really reliable to take it is Slowbro and it is usually coupled with a Steel type and then a special wall or two.

 

The next discussion point is IMO Slowbro, with Slack Off it actually becomes really terrifying and may fall under the defensive characteristics coupled with CM. Especially if we choose to suspect and ban Dragonite, giving it even more space.

 

To counter these points I'd like to say that Heracross is really under appreciated right now. The CB set and the SD set are currently very viable as Slowbro + Forretress is the main defensive core of every team. Coupled with the fact that Will -o Wisp is becoming more common. Heracross combats teams that are geared to counter Metagross and Dragonite very well.

 

Just my observations for now, I'm waiting for the day that Heracross becomes more common as I think that's a thing that could break the currently stagnant metagame.

 

Concluding these quick thoughts I vote for these ranks:

Slowbro for S rank

Dragonite for S rank

Heracross for A+ or even S rank

[Senile]

 

Here were my thoughts about the current top of the metagame:

 

So what I'm seeing is a lot of centralization around Dragonite. It may not be 'broken' as in overpowered but I think we should be looking at the aspect that it is limiting the metagame from evolving, at such an early stage. The only things that is really reliable to take it is Slowbro and it is usually coupled with a Steel type and then a special wall or two.

 

The next discussion point is IMO Slowbro, with Slack Off it actually becomes really terrifying and may fall under the defensive characteristics coupled with CM. Especially if we choose to suspect and ban Dragonite, giving it even more space.

 

To counter these points I'd like to say that Heracross is really under appreciated right now. The CB set and the SD set are currently very viable as Slowbro + Forretress is the main defensive core of every team. Coupled with the fact that Will -o Wisp is becoming more common. Heracross combats teams that are geared to counter Metagross and Dragonite very well.

 

Just my observations for now, I'm waiting for the day that Heracross becomes more common as I think that's a thing that could break the currently stagnant metagame.

 

Concluding these quick thoughts I vote for these ranks:

Slowbro for S rank

Dragonite for S rank

Heracross for A+ or even S rank

 

Hercalacross isn't popular right now, there's no reason for it to be A+/S Rank just because you think people just haven't figured out to use it. If it's not used at all, there's probably a decent reason. Kind of like how people are arguing about how insane Dugtrio supposedly is because of a hatred for trapping, but in reality, it's just not relevant anymore. It's A rank at best, arguably lower than that.

[BurntZebra]

I agree to all of those points so far, after playing a lot of OU in the past 2 days, I've noticed heracross is a fucking bitch, especially when someone is running slowbro+blissey+snorlax. There are no great switch ins for heracross either at this point, dragonite+gyarados take massive damage from cb rock slides, same with gengar, basically weezing is the only good answer to heracross. Slowbro gets many opportunities to switch in and checks many physical threats so that is an S rank imo. Dragonite the same with its extreme speed to check many fast sweepers or set up sweepers and gets access to dragon claw to obliterate anything that isn't a steel type and thunderbolt to obliterate anything that is slowbro or a steel type. Heracross might be A or A+ just because it doesn't get a lot of switch ins and has more counters than dragonite and less versatility.

[ThinkNice]

Hercalacross isn't popular right now, there's no reason for it to be A+/S Rank just because you think people just haven't figured out to use it. If it's not used at all, there's probably a decent reason. Kind of like how people are arguing about how insane Dugtrio supposedly is because of a hatred for trapping, but in reality, it's just not relevant anymore. It's A rank at best, arguably lower than that.

I don't agree with your thought process, it doesn't matter how 'popular' it is. Fact still is that Heracross combats almost all of our 'top metagame Pokémon' extremely well. In fact I think viability rankings should raise awareness of the effectiveness of certain Pokémon. If you look at our potential S rank Pokemon: (probably Gengar, Dragonite and Slowbro) which it all can destroy. Forretress and Swampert, two very common physical walls also do not stand a chance against it. Many Swampert are not even running water STAB because they run Rock Slide to combat Gyarados, making Heracross even more terrifying for them.

 

Anyway just pointing out I don't necessarily agree with how you'd rank Pokémon A or A+ is fair enough for me.

[Blue]

I agree to all of those points so far, after playing a lot of OU in the past 2 days, I've noticed heracross is a fucking uguu, especially when someone is running slowbro+blissey+snorlax. There are no great switch ins for heracross either at this point, dragonite+gyarados take massive damage from cb rock slides, same with gengar, basically weezing is the only good answer to heracross. Slowbro gets many opportunities to switch in and checks many physical threats so that is an S rank imo. Dragonite the same with its extreme speed to check many fast sweepers or set up sweepers and gets access to dragon claw to obliterate anything that isn't a steel type and thunderbolt to obliterate anything that is slowbro or a steel type. Heracross might be A or A+ just because it doesn't get a lot of switch ins and has more counters than dragonite and less versatility.

my hera is no uguu :P  rip cloyster

[Bestfriendss]

I agree to all of those points so far, after playing a lot of OU in the past 2 days, I've noticed heracross is a fucking uguu, especially when someone is running slowbro+blissey+snorlax. There are no great switch ins for heracross either at this point, dragonite+gyarados take massive damage from cb rock slides, same with gengar, basically weezing is the only good answer to heracross. Slowbro gets many opportunities to switch in and checks many physical threats so that is an S rank imo. Dragonite the same with its extreme speed to check many fast sweepers or set up sweepers and gets access to dragon claw to obliterate anything that isn't a steel type and thunderbolt to obliterate anything that is slowbro or a steel type. Heracross might be A or A+ just because it doesn't get a lot of switch ins and has more counters than dragonite and less versatility.

You know what time it is, Ban Heracross! It must be done or Senile will give the community nightmares.... I am agreeing with ThinkNice and Zebra on this one and now with Spetile (MegaHorn), Blazkin (Speed race, Hera = CB Earthquake), Slowbro (MegaHorn), etc. I think it is time that Hera meets up with Mance, Wobbufett, and T-tar...

[DoctorPBC]

Basically what Burntzebra said, Heracross is very strong but the switch-in opportunities are pretty limited due to its typing and defenses. I would put it as an A+ because it isnt crazy OP, it has flaws (defenses, cant safely switch in vs most of the stuff it destroys and lowish speed allows revenge killings)

 

S for me right now would be Dragonite, Gyarados and possibly Gengar. Slowbro A because of the heracross issue and the fact non-hp elec versions get destroyed by gyarados

Edited February 1, 2015 by DoctorPBC

[BurntZebra]

Basically what Burntzebra said, Heracross is very strong but the switch-in opportunities are pretty limited due to its typing and defenses. I would put it as an A+ because it isnt crazy OP, it has flaws (defenses, cant safely switch in vs most of the stuff it destroys and lowish speed allows revenge killings)

 

S for me right now would be Dragonite, Gyarados and possibly Gengar. Slowbro A because of the heracross issue and the fact non-hp elec versions get destroyed by gyarados

I don't know if I would put gengar as S rank. It has a lot of versatility but pursuit trappers can have a toll on gengar. Just because slowbro loses to one physical attacker doesn't mean it shouldn't be S rank. It basically counters every other choice bander out there and is on a completely different level compared to vaporeon/swampert

[Senile]

I don't agree with your thought process, it doesn't matter how 'popular' it is. Fact still is that Heracross combats almost all of our 'top metagame Pokémon' extremely well. In fact I think viability rankings should raise awareness of the effectiveness of certain Pokémon. If you look at our potential S rank Pokemon: (probably Gengar, Dragonite and Slowbro) which it all can destroy. Forretress and Swampert, two very common physical walls also do not stand a chance against it. Many Swampert are not even running water STAB because they run Rock Slide to combat Gyarados, making Heracross even more terrifying for them.

 

Anyway just pointing out I don't necessarily agree with how you'd rank Pokémon A or A+ is fair enough for me.

It most certainly does matter. An S rank pokemon is, by definition, a pokemon which is almost too good to use; They have massive upsides and little to no downsides. In that sense, they are pokemon which are used to an absurd degree, because there's basically no downside for doing so. If you're proposing that a pokemon should be S rank, yet is almost never used, that implies that there is some inconsistency with the logic and that, for whatever reason, people seem to find some sort of downside to using it. That, combined with how early it is, means it absolutely does matter; Preemptively giving a pokemon such a high rank based on a hunch you have is nonsense. Saying that it seems like it would be S rank, but it is not used at all, means that we should wait before taking any action, as there is a contradiction between what is assumed and what is known. To even suggest ranking Heracross S rank at this stage is absurd, and even giving it A rank should wait until we have a bit more time to allow Heracross usage to develop.

 

Also, I find it odd that you're saying Heracross destroys Gengar and Dragonite. Yeah, it can hit them hard with Rock Slide, but it can't really switch in, barring something like Gengar Wisping on a Guts CB Heracross switching in. Gengar is a pokemon which has resistances to Heracross' dual STABs, meaning that it's actually one of the pokemon who can stop Heracross once or twice in a match if predicted correctly; If anything, Gengar hurts Heracross much more than Heracross hurts Gengar.

 

Same story with Dragonite, as Dragonite is probably the #1 reason Heracross isn't used anywhere near as much as it seems like it should right now, as Dragonite's Espeed alone basically invalidates the Salac Sweeper sets which Heracross loves so much, making Heracross much more restricted and predictable than it otherwise would be.

 

Slowbro, yeah, he gets demolished AND is the main physical wall on most teams nowadays, which is pretty much a large amount of the reason Heracross seems so good.

 

With that being said, you're listing upsides of Heracross and ignoring downsides; For example, since Heracross is pretty much restricted to a CB set, it plays a risky game. There's a surprising amount of things which resist it's dual STABs, the most notable of which being Gyarados. If Gyara comes in on basically anything but a Rock Slide, you're in for a hell of a ride, as you're kind of forced to let that thing get to +1 while only having been tickled. This makes Heracross rely on Rock Slide a little more than it might like, and seeing as it doesn't have STAB and is only 75 BP, it's pretty bad for the poor insect.

 

TL;DR: Yes, usage matters, mostly when talking about something like a potential S rank pokemon. If an S rank basically has no downsides to it's use, but isn't being used very much, then there's clearly something missing in the logic, and patience should be exercised before any action is taken.

[Robofiend]

Hera's not S-Rank because it doesn't define the metagame (as your criterion suggests). If it did, it'd be everywhere. For now I'd give it B+ or A- rank.

 

Slowbro's not quite S-Rank, definitely A, but I'm having trouble seeing it as meta-defining. It seems more like a reaction to things like Meta/Blaziken than something that is inherently useful and its weakness to Bug/Dark attacks means that many of the best physical attackers have an movepool option that can break it (although dedicating a move only to breaking Slowbro is a testament to how strong it is).

 

Dragonite's obviously S-Rank, Gengar's up there, Jolteon is also incredibly good. Blaziken, Metagross and Aerodactyl deserve some shout outs for being A rank.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Robofiend

[DoubleJ]

JJ's Blanket OU Assessment

 

S Rank: Dragonite

 

A+ Rank: Gengar, Gyarados, Metagross

 

A Rank: Blaziken, Heracross, Skarmory, Slowbro, Snorlax

[ThinkNice]

It most certainly does matter. An S rank pokemon is, by definition, a pokemon which is almost too good to use; They have massive upsides and little to no downsides. In that sense, they are pokemon which are used to an absurd degree, because there's basically no downside for doing so. If you're proposing that a pokemon should be S rank, yet is almost never used, that implies that there is some inconsistency with the logic and that, for whatever reason, people seem to find some sort of downside to using it. That, combined with how early it is, means it absolutely does matter; Preemptively giving a pokemon such a high rank based on a hunch you have is nonsense. Saying that it seems like it would be S rank, but it is not used at all, means that we should wait before taking any action, as there is a contradiction between what is assumed and what is known. To even suggest ranking Heracross S rank at this stage is absurd, and even giving it A rank should wait until we have a bit more time to allow Heracross usage to develop.

 

Also, I find it odd that you're saying Heracross destroys Gengar and Dragonite. Yeah, it can hit them hard with Rock Slide, but it can't really switch in, barring something like Gengar Wisping on a Guts CB Heracross switching in. Gengar is a pokemon which has resistances to Heracross' dual STABs, meaning that it's actually one of the pokemon who can stop Heracross once or twice in a match if predicted correctly; If anything, Gengar hurts Heracross much more than Heracross hurts Gengar.

 

Same story with Dragonite, as Dragonite is probably the #1 reason Heracross isn't used anywhere near as much as it seems like it should right now, as Dragonite's Espeed alone basically invalidates the Salac Sweeper sets which Heracross loves so much, making Heracross much more restricted and predictable than it otherwise would be.

 

Slowbro, yeah, he gets demolished AND is the main physical wall on most teams nowadays, which is pretty much a large amount of the reason Heracross seems so good.

 

With that being said, you're listing upsides of Heracross and ignoring downsides; For example, since Heracross is pretty much restricted to a CB set, it plays a risky game. There's a surprising amount of things which resist it's dual STABs, the most notable of which being Gyarados. If Gyara comes in on basically anything but a Rock Slide, you're in for a hell of a ride, as you're kind of forced to let that thing get to +1 while only having been tickled. This makes Heracross rely on Rock Slide a little more than it might like, and seeing as it doesn't have STAB and is only 75 BP, it's pretty bad for the poor insect.

 

TL;DR: Yes, usage matters, mostly when talking about something like a potential S rank pokemon. If an S rank basically has no downsides to it's use, but isn't being used very much, then there's clearly something missing in the logic, and patience should be exercised before any action is taken.

Agreeing on some points, disagreeing on others.

 

I agree on your definition of an S rank Pokémon. I was probably to hyped about Battle Bug and placed it too high. Because it certainly is not a defining Pokémon in the metagame with some flaws - not S rank material. It's more a reaction on the defining metagame Pokémon.

 

Dragonite really can't switch in on Heracross and Gyarados can definitely switch in but does not like to do this.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 85-101 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 66-78 (37 - 43.8%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Meaning Heracross does not give Gyarados 'that' much space to set up. Megahorn is very spammable. What I'm trying to say is, even though Dragonite and Gyarados resist both his STABs they get wrecked by it. Gengar actually is played pretty defensively right now with stuff like Pain Split, Disable and WoW. Which is why I think Heracross does make it much riskier for Gengar to do what it does best: annoy the shit out of everyone. Not to mention Heracross can trap Gengar with Pursuit.

 

Dragonite maybe kills the Salac set but so does Gyarados, defensive Arcanine and Weezing. One of those will definitely be on your opponent's team, so I don't think Salac has ever been an option in our metagame. The SD set is actually pretty good right now because the metagame is focused on bulky offense with the fastest threat being Gyarados most of the time. So Heracross has the room to SD up and hit his switch ins after that too.

 

Still seems like A+ to me for his sheer power and spammable 120 STAB move. Also seeing as how he can easily switch on things like Swampert Rock Slides/Ice Beams or EQs. It has some flaws but his destructive power makes him worthy of this rank IMO.

[fredrichnietze]

thankyou thinknice for not letting senile make the list.

 

also jolteon for A rank. it's currently the best special attacker in the game. not weak to pursuit and fast as hell. tbolt + hp ice or ground coverage is great and it has options like lightscreen, swagger, fake tears, growth, sub, twave, ect... to mess with any and all counters.

 

metagross for S rank. agility + boom +2 attacks pretty much garuntees a minimium one kill.

[Senile]

thankyou thinknice for not letting senile make the list.

 

also jolteon for A rank. it's currently the best special attacker in the game. not weak to pursuit and fast as hell. tbolt + hp ice or ground coverage is great and it has options like lightscreen, swagger, fake tears, growth, sub, twave, ect... to mess with any and all counters.

 

metagross for S rank. agility + boom +2 attacks pretty much garuntees a minimium one kill.

I have no idea why you said HP Ice or Ground; It's HP Ice or HP Grass, if anything. Also, it's Tbolt/HP Ice coverage isn't anywhere near as good as it used to be, as Swampert can tank the fuck out of HP ice like it's nobody's business and ofc is immune to Tbolt. Also kek growth.

 

With that being said, yeah, Jolteon's all over the place right now, and for good reason, probably an A or at least B rank pokemon for as long as Slowbrah is outshining Mudfish.

[fredrichnietze]

@senile steel/rock/fire/electric types is why ground. jolt vs jolt or jolt vs steelix ect...

[Senile]

@senile steel/rock/fire/electric types is why ground. jolt vs jolt or jolt vs steelix ect...

Fire/Steel/Rock types are pretty much hit just as hard by Tbolt, AND Tbolt has the 10% para chance, except for a few exceptions like Steelix (which is absolutely fucking poop sock in OU). Other than that, HP ground hits, what? Other Jolteon and Magneton? It hits the rare Lanturn too, but HP Grass does as well with superior coverage. Plus, HP Ground gives Flygon a 100% free pass on you, fails to hit Swampert for noticeable damage, and leaves you super open to a Dugtrio ruining your day. HP Ground also leaves you even more open to a bunch of random shit like Venusaur, for example.

 

Literally the only notable pokemon HP Ground gives you coverage against are other Jolteon and Magneton, everything else is much better handled by a different HP or just Tbolt.

[BurntZebra]

Fire/Steel/Rock types are pretty much hit just as hard by Tbolt, AND Tbolt has the 10% para chance, except for a few exceptions like Steelix (which is absolutely fucking poop sock in OU). Other than that, HP ground hits, what? Other Jolteon and Magneton? It hits the rare Lanturn too, but HP Grass does as well with superior coverage. Plus, HP Ground gives Flygon a 100% free pass on you, fails to hit Swampert for noticeable damage, and leaves you super open to a Dugtrio ruining your day. HP Ground also leaves you even more open to a bunch of random shit like Venusaur, for example.

 

Literally the only notable pokemon HP Ground gives you coverage against are other Jolteon and Magneton, everything else is much better handled by a different HP or just Tbolt.

lf heatran?

[Senile]

lf heatran?

At that point you're better off running the grossly superior Rotom-W, because any electric type that isn't Rotom is a joke, kek. #PraiseDuhWash

[DrCraig]

Well, I vouch for Flygon at A because of its CB set which is wallable, its ATK stat isn't too high, and at full speed it loses bulk. If invested it can have nice bulky, it has 2 effective stabs and a nice movepool as a whole. It can sweep a good amount of the meta but needs support. A B+ might be suitable also, opinions?

 

I vouch for Forretress at B+. It can wall a significant portion of physicals, but has little pressure to force some of them out. It has great defense stats, and can succesfully tank special hits also. It is one of the best spinner, and spikers. Due to its lack of pressure, it is set up bait a lot unless properly supported. Opinions?

 

And I believe Vaporeon is an A. It might not be the best, but it can cleric. It has wish support, and a nice ability which gives it a better defense presence. It gets hit hard by some physicals these days, but Wish/Protect can solve that problem quick. It can also take special hits well to an extent. Surf, Ice Beam, and HP electric variants can deal damage back at fore which gives it some decent offensive pressure. Its support qualities hold it as still viable.

[BurntZebra]

Well, I vouch for Flygon at A because of its CB set which is wallable, its ATK stat isn't too high, and at full speed it loses bulk. If invested it can have nice bulky, it has 2 effective stabs and a nice movepool as a whole. It can sweep a good amount of the meta but needs support. A B+ might be suitable also, opinions?

 

I vouch for Forretress at B+. It can wall a significant portion of physicals, but has little pressure to force some of them out. It has great defense stats, and can succesfully tank special hits also. It is one of the best spinner, and spikers. Due to its lack of pressure, it is set up bait a lot unless properly supported. Opinions?

 

And I believe Vaporeon is an A. It might not be the best, but it can cleric. It has wish support, and a nice ability which gives it a better defense presence. It gets hit hard by some physicals these days, but Wish/Protect can solve that problem quick. It can also take special hits well to an extent. Surf, Ice Beam, and HP electric variants can deal damage back at fore which gives it some decent offensive pressure. Its support qualities hold it as still viable.

I would say vaporeon isn't A at this point. It has 4mss pretty hard and with gyarados running around, you don't want to be giving it any free switch ins so you decide to run hp electric. Now you are left with 3 other moves, which should probably be wish+protect so you dont lose to the physical attackers you're supposed to counter and ice beam to threaten flygon/dragonite. Now this leaves you open to blaziken/metagross/probably something else I'm forgetting. And if you don't run hp electric, gyarados will poop on your day for sure unless you run the copyrighted zebra breloom, and you are still left with the choice between surf and heal bell. And the combination of wish+protect kind of puts a lot of pressure on vaporeon to make the right prediction. You can wish while a jolteon/magneton come in and now you can either protect so you dont get shredded by a stab thunderbolt or you can attack and hope that they sub'ed. If you play it safe you now need to deal with a magneton or jolteon behind a substitute, not to mention you can't really hit either of them unless you run surf. Probably would write something else but I need to do my us history essay now.

[ThinkNice]

Well, I vouch for Flygon at A because of its CB set which is wallable, its ATK stat isn't too high, and at full speed it loses bulk. If invested it can have nice bulky, it has 2 effective stabs and a nice movepool as a whole. It can sweep a good amount of the meta but needs support. A B+ might be suitable also, opinions?

 

I vouch for Forretress at B+. It can wall a significant portion of physicals, but has little pressure to force some of them out. It has great defense stats, and can succesfully tank special hits also. It is one of the best spinner, and spikers. Due to its lack of pressure, it is set up bait a lot unless properly supported. Opinions?

 

And I believe Vaporeon is an A. It might not be the best, but it can cleric. It has wish support, and a nice ability which gives it a better defense presence. It gets hit hard by some physicals these days, but Wish/Protect can solve that problem quick. It can also take special hits well to an extent. Surf, Ice Beam, and HP electric variants can deal damage back at fore which gives it some decent offensive pressure. Its support qualities hold it as still viable.

I agree with Zebra's assessment of Vaporeon's role in today's metagame. I think all the Pokémon you listed fit right into the description of B rank:

 

Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

 

Flygon's CB set is way easier to wall than Dragonite's, its also a really bad idea to lock yourself into Earthquake with all kind of threats that can abuse this to their advantage, big names like: Dragonite, Gengar, Gyarados and Heracross. His Dragon Claw move is grossly outclassed by CB Dragonite then add on the fact that Dragonite can run Mixed or purely special sets way better and has access to DD and we are looking at a Dragonfly that just couldn't cut it and is not effective enough to be A rank.

 

Forretress also does his job well but we can all agree that it needs a lot of support. In our current metagame physical investment becomes more and more important and with that it really doesn't take special hits that well anymore. It does do a multiple of jobs very well though which is setting up spikes, spinning them and blocking physical attackers. It's a lot less susceptible to Magneton but most physical attackers don't care about what Forretress does either. Overall I feel like Spikes are less effective than they used to be and there is just less room to set them up.

 

I vouch Flygon for B+, Vaporeon for B+ and Forretress for B/B+.

 

---

 

Announcement:

 

Dragonite is placed in S rank.

Heracross is placed in A+ rank.

 

I would like to see some focus of discussion on these vouches:

Vaporeon, Forretress and Flygon for B+ rank.

Jolteon for A rank.

Metagross for S rank.

Gengar for S rank.

Slowbro for A+/S rank.

Gyarados for A+/S rank.

Edited February 3, 2015 by ThinkNice

[DoctorPBC]

Metagross definitely not S rank, it's main stab meteor mash gets resisted hard by every common physical wall, it's slow, weak to earthquake which 90% of phys sweepers run and it's setup bait for gyarados, spike forretress, and calm mind slowbro.

It never sweeps and it doesn't punch enough holes in other teams.

My vote is for it to go A/A+ at best . It's strong and I haven't listed the upsides to using it, but it's not meta defining and it has very notable flaws

[bl0nde]

Metagross  setup bait for gyarados, spike forretress, and calm mind slowbro.

 

Metagross can run thunderpunch, I saw one break a skarm today (2 hit) in a sweep. it might have been a jolly one because it out ran an arcanine that wasnt speed invested too (maybe 252 atk 252 spec atk with extreme speed on that arcanine).

 

A couple of my guesstimations:

[spoiler]

Kangaskhan: A

• Access to elementai punches
• Strong Stab usually double edge
• Bulky but still some speed
• When you think dusclops is a good counter for it, it can run crunch and put a dent in there until it is W-o-W'd
• Early bird lets it sleep off damage or makes it a better choice to absorb spore/sleep powder for team mates.

Ursaring: B+

• dat stab - ouch
• elemental punches (not that I have seen one yet?)
• Slow

Snorlax: A

• Still a threat.

Medicham: B+

• Pure Power (ability) 120 stab brick break/ high jump kick
• Elemental punches
• Resists lots of stuff but has no bulk

[/spoiler]

This is all my opinion, I'm barely still grasping what is going on in the meta rofl. u r more than welcome to critique my post anybody. My definiton of A is you can still possibly play around it without directly having a counter for it (just a couple checks). My definition of S is if you don't have a plan for it, it could sweep you real good in the butt.

Edited February 3, 2015 by bl0nde

[MisterHide]

Metagross for S rank:

Agility gross is something very effective for both wall breaking and late game sweep with his huge attack and his amazing bulk coupled with a good double type, make it easy to switch in psychic moves, if it get an attack buff from meteor mash it can 2hko vaporeon and slowbro, making swampert the lone thing that can wall gross

[spoiler]+1 252+ Atk Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 142-168 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 98-116 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 48.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery[/spoiler]

 

Gyarados for S rank:

DD gyara was already very good before the split, and now getting stab physical waterfall it can deal huge damages to skarmory which was the best thing to stop DD gyara, best solutions to stop it  is make your wall  running a HP elec, thunderbold weezing with a EQ predict switch, toxic and roar since there is no much taunt gyara around right now.

 

Slowbro for A+ rank:

Getting slack off make slowbro be the most reliable physical OU wall, have good stab surf & psychic to deal some damages on switch out, calm mind if your opponent don't have anything for make it switch,  icebeam to prevent dragonite from coming in, and run t-wave for making your opponent bring his cleric (if have one). 

Edited February 3, 2015 by MisterHide