[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[Rigamorty]

Well folks, after making a few people in Mauville shed tears tonight, I decided to make this thread.


The obvious thing Dugtrio has going for it is Arena Trap. In the past this gangbang of moles was banned for the reason of being uncompetitive, and quite overpowered. It has the ability to revenge kill without hfail those 2 fat normal types we all know and love: Blissey and Snorlax.

What has changed since the update that would make this varmint not ban-worthy? Something that comes to mind is the fact that the meta seems much more physical-oriented now. Lots of pokemon are very heavy hitting, and most are near impossible for Dugtrio to switch into. There are more bulky pokemon that can survive hits from special sweepers and OHKO back due to heightened coverage from the split, so walls aren't entirely necessary to beat them like before.

That doesn't change the fact though that Dugtrio traps things, and trapping in general has been thought of as bannable in itself. People even argued for a Magneton ban, when all it traps is steel types. Even Diglett was banned, because it still managed to OHKO the special walls, and could trap many things to allow things like curse to give an easy kill through sub spamming.

I'm personally quite on the fence about Dugtrio right now, since killing a special wall just really doesn't seem to have the impact that it did before, making it not as eligible for banning under the support characteristic. The meta is a lot more tank oriented, and less wall oriented now. But trapping is still really fucking annoying.

Discuss.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Rigamorty

[OldKeith]

I'm personally quite on the fence about Dugtrio right now, since killing a special wall just really doesn't seem to have the impact that it did before, making it not as eligible for banning under the support characteristic. The meta is a lot more tank oriented, and less wall oriented now. But trapping is still really fucking annoying.

 

 

So you're telling me that if you lose your Blissey or Snorlax and your opponent runs Jolteon, Starmie, and CM Slowbro you are not in deep trouble?

[MisterHide]

So you're telling me that if you lose your Blissey or Snorlax and your opponent runs Jolteon, Starmie, and CM Slowbro you are not in deep trouble?

 

Imo yes, for exemple metagross (if full life) can get rid of both jolteon and starmie, and can kill slowbro if it get a atk buff from meteor mash

Swampert will be surely soon the most used physical wall, more than skarmory because can come in a thunderbolt, protect to check hp grass, and if he have nothing else to stop magneton it can kill it even by taking a hit from hp grass:

 

252+ SpA Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 156-188 (75.3 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

For dugtrio, the new meta currently point out it's not as effective as before, lets see if the ability to trap every non-fly/levitate pokemon deserve to be banned itself or not (If yes, it would mean diglet and wynaut should be banned too)

[OldKeith]

Imo yes, for exemple metagross (if full life) can get rid of both jolteon and starmie, and can kill slowbro if it get a atk buff from meteor mash

 

-Um, not really. Why the hell would Jolteon or starmie stay in on a Metagross in the first place? Relying on an attack boost from meteor mash that only happens 1 out of 5 times is not an ideal argument on how your Metagross will take down a special attacking team.

 

Swampert will be surely soon the most used physical wall, more than skarmory because can come in a thunderbolt, protect to check hp grass, and if he have nothing else to stop magneton it can kill it even by taking a hit from hp grass:

 

-The lack of reliable instant recovery makes Swampert a less efficient wall than Vaporeon or Slowbro, although it has a nice typing and can work well against some things that beat Vapo/Slowbro. 

 

The problem with Dugtrio remains. It is rather uncompetitive, especially in an environment where you do not have many great special wall choices.

 

I think Diglett is okay because it is slower and hits less hard. But Dugtrio should be banned.

Edited January 27, 2015 by OldKeith

[RysPicz]

Let's not forget one thing, because surely, the most often seen set is the reversal one, but a while ago, Dugtrio gained also the CB set, which is also very viable and powerful and imo, should not be overlooked.

I think we simply do not have enough answers for dugtrio currently. Lack of sucker punch, no good priority moves (ice shard/ bullet punch)... It reminds me the discussion I had with Thinkie in the Diglett thread, posts got deleted (WHY? :( ) and I can't quote myself exactly the way I said it. But there was something said about how severly Diglett (it still applies to Dugtrio) limits teambuilding and how heavily uncompetitive it is.

 

Dugtrio should be baneed.

[Sacky]

IMO the ou meta was very healthy when this little bastard was banned..and actually i was against a ban of trio in first place..but the result of the ban was really good..the same whit baton pass

i think trio should be banned again

[DrCraig]

It takes out the main specials walls unless they run an unconventional set, like whirlwind/hail/growl and shit.

 

Dugtrio is bad otherwise, but the way it takes out lax and blissey, and revenge kills as a whole is uncompetitive.

 

Probably a good idea to ban it.

[PandaJJ]

Imo yes, for exemple metagross (if full life) can get rid of both jolteon and starmie, and can kill slowbro if it get a atk buff from meteor mash

Swampert will be surely soon the most used physical wall, more than skarmory because can come in a thunderbolt, protect to check hp grass, and if he have nothing else to stop magneton it can kill it even by taking a hit from hp grass:

 

252+ SpA Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 156-188 (75.3 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

For dugtrio, the new meta currently point out it's not as effective as before, lets see if the ability to trap every non-fly/levitate pokemon deserve to be banned itself or not (If yes, it would mean diglet and wynaut should be banned too)

 

That argument doesn't make sense on any level. Firstly, there is no way metagross is even swithing in on a starmie, unless choice band:

 

252+ Atk Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 212-250 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

And if you want your metagross to deal with jolteon, you better not lock yourself into a thunderpunch with a choice band. Even with a choice band metagross can't switch in on starmie and proceed to beat jolteon:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 211-249 (80.8 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Now, assuming you were even able to magically take down the starmie - did you forget about dugtrio? After having taken down your special wall, it safely switched out to wait for the moment when it could revenge kill your metagross (which it should have no problem doing, since metagross is wounded by starmie):

 

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 126-149 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Dugtrio is not magneton - it does not suck if the opponent does not bring your prefered steel type, it can still revenge kill.

Edited January 28, 2015 by PandaJJ

[Kiliminati]

Oh Riga, you just had to do it...

I guess in the end, OU is going to be the exact same in terms of what is banned out of it when compared to before the update. Guess it's for the best.

[Senile]

Well folks, after making a few people in Mauville shed tears tonight, I decided to make this thread.

 

The obvious thing Dugtrio has going for it is Arena Trap. In the past this gangbang of moles was banned for the reason of being uncompetitive, and quite overpowered. It has the ability to revenge kill without hfail those 2 fat normal types we all know and love: Blissey and Snorlax.

 

What has changed since the update that would make this varmint not ban-worthy? Something that comes to mind is the fact that the meta seems much more physical-oriented now. Lots of pokemon are very heavy hitting, and most are near impossible for Dugtrio to switch into. There are more bulky pokemon that can survive hits from special sweepers and OHKO back due to heightened coverage from the split, so walls aren't entirely necessary to beat them like before.

 

That doesn't change the fact though that Dugtrio traps things, and trapping in general has been thought of as bannable in itself. People even argued for a Magneton ban, when all it traps is steel types. Even Diglett was banned, because it still managed to OHKO the special walls, and could trap many things to allow things like curse to give an easy kill through sub spamming.

 

I'm personally quite on the fence about Dugtrio right now, since killing a special wall just really doesn't seem to have the impact that it did before, making it not as eligible for banning under the support characteristic. The meta is a lot more tank oriented, and less wall oriented now. But trapping is still really fucking annoying.

 

Discuss.

Dugtrio just isn't relevant anymore. Special sweeper teams are pretty meh now, as even once you get rid of their special walls, most pokemon on teams nowadays are super bulky and can hit pretty hard, being able to punish these comparatively quite frail special attackers, as they can usually take a hit.

 

But even beyond that, they just kind of suffer from consistency. Unless you want to sac something, you have to predict to get your Dugtrio in, and if it fails for whatever reason (ie mispredict), your team is kind of fucked, as it's built around it. Not to mention the fact that it's possible to Pursuit trap shit like Starmie now, and losing an important part of your lategame sweeping core to something like that really fucks you up even if you do manage to pull off a Dugtrio trapping. If you lose your Starmie, and all you have left is a Jolteon to sweep, you're gonna have a bad time, especially against shit like Espeed Dragonite which can easily finish off a slightly weakened Jolteon. If you're running Swampert, an HP Ice Jolteon is gonna have a bad time.

 

Almost nobody is using Dugtrio nowadays, you really don't see the little mole much, because he just doesn't work as well as he used to. The meta is very unfavorable towards the special attacking teams, so he's just not good. I get everyone hates trapping, but come on guys, special teams aren't even relevant at the moment.

 

[spoiler]I also find it funny that you mentioned that people argued for Magneton being banned; yeah, they did, but not successfully, hue[/spoiler]

[Senile]

My argument is that it isn't very good right now, and it's lack of usage supports that argument. It can't support as well as it used to, because physical teams are better than special teams and even if they weren't, special teams just aren't as strong.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Noad

[RysPicz]

Senile:

 

Let's not forget one thing, because surely, the most often seen set is the reversal one, but a while ago, Dugtrio gained also the CB set, which is also very viable and powerful and imo, should not be overlooked.

I think we simply do not have enough answers for dugtrio currently. Lack of sucker punch, no good priority moves (ice shard/ bullet punch)... It reminds me the discussion I had with Thinkie in the Diglett thread, posts got deleted (WHY? :( ) and I can't quote myself exactly the way I said it. But there was something said about how severly Diglett (it still applies to Dugtrio) limits teambuilding and how heavily uncompetitive it is.

 

I think you focused yourself only on the side of Dugtrio's ability of removing people's 2 favourite special walls, while Dug has now also a CB set (I don't recall it ever had an opportunity to actually abuse it since it was banned before CB got released).

While I agree- to some extent- with what you said, that special teams aren't that powerful anymore, it doesn't change the fact that Dug is heavily uncompetitive and it still makes a lot of players angry when they can't do anything or little to it and it simply kills the opponet. Earlier we had BP on Jolt, now it gets trapped and killed. I see CB Dug as even more uncompetitive than the reversal set- in hands of skilled player, who predicts the switch, he can send it out on incoming offensive pokemon such as heracross/ metagross and simply kill it while they cannot do anything, limiting the teambuilding a lot.

 

EDIT:

We do not have the usage statistics like you said, there weren't many tournaments yet, so yeah I guess you think it'd be better to see how things will come out, but I'm pretty sure people will riot about that a lot and imo it'd be better to make a pre-emptive ban for it like it should've been done for the Lino in the past.

Edited January 28, 2015 by RysPicz

[OldKeith]

Dugtrio just isn't relevant anymore. Special sweeper teams are pretty meh now, as even once you get rid of their special walls, most pokemon on teams nowadays are super bulky and can hit pretty hard, being able to punish these comparatively quite frail special attackers, as they can usually take a hit.

 

But even beyond that, they just kind of suffer from consistency. Unless you want to sac something, you have to predict to get your Dugtrio in, and if it fails for whatever reason (ie mispredict), your team is kind of fucked, as it's built around it. Not to mention the fact that it's possible to Pursuit trap shit like Starmie now, and losing an important part of your lategame sweeping core to something like that really fucks you up even if you do manage to pull off a Dugtrio trapping. If you lose your Starmie, and all you have left is a Jolteon to sweep, you're gonna have a bad time, especially against shit like Espeed Dragonite which can easily finish off a slightly weakened Jolteon. If you're running Swampert, an HP Ice Jolteon is gonna have a bad time.

 

Almost nobody is using Dugtrio nowadays, you really don't see the little mole much, because he just doesn't work as well as he used to. The meta is very unfavorable towards the special attacking teams, so he's just not good. I get everyone hates trapping, but come on guys, special teams aren't even relevant at the moment.

 

[spoiler]I also find it funny that you mentioned that people argued for Magneton being banned; yeah, they did, but not successfully, hue[/spoiler]

 

Let's not forget a special attacker you failed to mention: Gengar. Gengar+Starmie+Jolteon can really crush your opponent if his special wall is gone.

[Senile]

Senile:

 

 

I think you focused yourself only on the side of Dugtrio's ability of removing people's 2 favourite special walls, while Dug has now also a CB set (I don't recall it ever had an opportunity to actually abuse it since it was banned before CB got released).

While I agree- to some extent- with what you said, that special teams aren't that powerful anymore, it doesn't change the fact that Dug is heavily uncompetitive and it still makes a lot of players angry when they can't do anything or little to it and it simply kills the opponet. Earlier we had BP on Jolt, now it gets trapped and killed. I see CB Dug as even more uncompetitive than the reversal set- in hands of skilled player, who predicts the switch, he can send it out on incoming offensive pokemon such as heracross/ metagross and simply kill it while they cannot do anything, limiting the teambuilding a lot.

I don't see the CB set as that good, so I didn't even bother mentioning it.

 

It's fine, but not really that amazing. It sorta picks off some things every now and again, but doesn't easily get a chance to switch in, and once it kills something it tosses the opponent back the tempo of the match like a shitty game of hot potato. The fact that it has so much trouble coming in, for the most part relies on things that it's trapping to already be weakened, the fact it has little to no wallbreaking/sweeping capability, and gives the opponent the tempo of match once it's managed to trap something. It usually won't manage to trap that many things in a match, and when it does, there's a loss attached to that trap as well. Since it's not as specialized as Reversal Dugtrio, you can't really build a team which can thoroughly abuse it either.

 

Let's not forget a special attacker you failed to mention: Gengar. Gengar+Starmie+Jolteon can really crush your opponent if his special wall is gone.

Gengar/Starmie/Jolteon/Dugtrio as a team is ridiculously fragile. That leaves you with 2 pokemon to serve as pivots/walls, and absolutely no room for a physical attacker if your Dugtrio fails. What are you gonna run? Gengar/Starmie/Jolteon/Dugtrio/Snorlax/Slowbro? If your Dugtrio fails, you're probably fucked. Stopping your opponent's offense once your Slowbro is gone will basically be impossible, you'll just get overrun. A team like that is also fucked hard by random shit like Agility Metagross.

 

Also, Gengar usually runs a more support role nowadays, throwing out hard to punish Will-O-Wisps and abusing it's immunities, while also providing a decent offensive threat in Shadow Ball to force things out/prevent things from coming in.

[Pedrr]

 you do not have many great special wall choices.

 

lol : 

 

is it enough?

[RysPicz]

Lmao sdef Flareon hold me

my sides

[Pedrr]

I wanted to reply but I noticed it is the same guy who posted the Slaking discussion.

the OU tier is not just snorlax / blissey / skarmory / starmie / dragonite

U_u

why trio sould be OP ? you can use claydol for break it.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Noad
Keep it polite please

[DaftCoolio]

why trio sould be OP ? you can use claydol for break it.

i dont think breaking it is the problem, the problem is its ability to trap and kill pokemon. It can switch out against claydol but shit cant switch out against dugtrio.

 

 

can flying types switch out?

[OldKeith]

the OU tier is not just snorlax / blissey / skarmory / starmie / dragonite

U_u

why trio sould be OP ? you can use claydol for break it.

 

 

Because Arena Trap is uncompetitive. It makes many OU pokemon unplayable, and if you run an inferior special wall choice just because you fear Dugtrio, you're not gonna win many officials.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Noad
Removed content

[RysPicz]

Guys, guys. Keep it on a human level please, it's a discussion about Dugtrio, let's not make it a private flame war.

 

Can flying types switch out?

Yes, same for levitates

Edited January 28, 2015 by Noad
Ty but top keks aren't needed here o/

[Noad]

Guys, guys. Keep it on a human level please, it's a discussion about Dugtrio, let's not make it a private flame war.

 

^ Let's keep this in mind, thank you. 

[Kiliminati]

^ Let's keep this in mind, thank you.

Top keks are always needed, pls

But to stay on topic, Senile makes a good point; with the addition of Hoenn Pokes, Dugtrio really could not be as broken as before with the old meta. Maybe the best idea right now is to just wait and play it out first.

[Senile]

We do not have the usage statistics like you said, there weren't many tournaments yet, so yeah I guess you think it'd be better to see how things will come out, but I'm pretty sure people will riot about that a lot and imo it'd be better to make a pre-emptive ban for it like it should've been done for the Lino in the past.

We do have usage stats, they just aren't public yet because, as you said, there haven't been many tournaments yet. Dugtrio isn't used very often. Like, at all.

 

I'm really not seeing that much talk about Dugtrio, I'm seeing a lot of people talking about Dragonite and even Metagross, but not very much Dugtrio talk. Hell, this thread has been out for a bit with pretty much no discussion beyond "oh yeah it traps things so let's ban it", which is not, never has been, and never will be a valid argument on it's own for a ban. Before the update, I hypothesized that Dugtrio wouldn't be that big of a threat, and so far, it seems I've been pretty dead on, especially now that TTar is gone.

 

As for people rioting about it not being banned immediately, the only response I can muster to that is "top kek"; That's hardly a concern. If they want it banned, then they should use it, show it's effective, and argue as to why it should be banned. I haven't seen a single convincing argument for banning it, and I haven't seen it used, so I see absolutely no reason to ban it. It's that simple.

 

And the biggest reason this comment rubs me the wrong way is that you're saying "we should just make a pre-emptive ban", under the assumption that it's just going to get banned anyway. No, we're not "just testing it out", Dugtrio isn't banned because I don't think it's anywhere near banworthy to the moment, and I haven't seen a single reasonable point against that.

 

TL;DR: If you think trapping alone is gonna get something banned, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[spoiler]pls add 4th gen shit darkshade so we can unban wobbuffet <3[/spoiler]

[Kiliminati]

[spoiler]pls add 4th gen shit darkshade so we can unban wobbuffet <3[/spoiler]

WE NEED THIS ^^^

[MisterHide]

 

That argument doesn't make sense on any level. Firstly, there is no way metagross is even swithing in on a starmie, unless choice band:

 

252+ Atk Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 212-250 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

And if you want your metagross to deal with jolteon, you better not lock yourself into a thunderpunch with a choice band. Even with a choice band metagross can't switch in on starmie and proceed to beat jolteon:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 211-249 (80.8 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Now, assuming you were even able to magically take down the starmie - did you forget about dugtrio? After having taken down your special wall, it safely switched out to wait for the moment when it could revenge kill your metagross (which it should have no problem doing, since metagross is wounded by starmie):

 

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 126-149 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Dugtrio is not magneton - it does not suck if the opponent does not bring your prefered steel type, it can still revenge kill.

 

 

Off topic reply:

[spoiler]Metagross can run agility, choice band is not the unique set,

Evs spread in order to have 101 speed is enough, and put the rest on hp

Metagross can easily switch in when predicting a psychic or ice beam:

252 SpA Starmie Psychic vs. 166 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 17-21 (9.6 - 11.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252 SpA Starmie Ice Beam vs. 166 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 25-29 (14.2 - 16.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Metagross use agility, now outspeed both dugtrio and jolteon

252+ Atk Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 112-132 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If the metagross come with a non 100% hp starmie or without taking any damage, you are garantued to defeat the star

Now dugtrio wanna revenge kill? Gross faster 252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Dugtrio: 154-183 (140 - 166.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Jolteon want it to? no prob 252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 192-228 (137.1 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[/spoiler]

 

About dugtrio itself, the ability to revenge/kill every low hp pokemons slower than it is pretty uncompetitive, and deserve a ban for such an ability

Edited January 29, 2015 by MisterHide