[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[NikhilR]

You don't need to run QA, Taunt goes through Substitute so if you play it right Dugtrio will never be able to pull of a 200 base Reversal on Umbreon.

 

May be this would be one of those times where the predictions favours my side, but what if Dugtrio uses screech just before the umbreon user taunts you? 

 

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 84-100 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

[codylramey]

lol

why lol? of the few umbreons around im sure a lot of them dont run taunt

[DrCraig]

why lol? of the few umbreons around im sure a lot of them dont run taunt

Since Umbreon is set up bait a lot of the time, its kind of silly not to carry taunt for spikes and set up moves. Not like it has many other superior options. Edited April 21, 2015 by DrCraig

[OldKeith]

Umbreon already often carries Pursuit, Wish and Protect. The 4th move can be Taunt, Heal Bell, or Toxic, depending on the role it has in the team. Assuming every Umbreon must run Taunt is just silly.

[bl0nde]

Source:

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47727-tiering-and-you/?hl=tiering+and+you

 

"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions."

"In other words, something that takes away options from the player, creating a lack of options"

 

"Things which restrict the metagame in ways which are unfavorable for an evolving competitive metagame"

 

• I cannot use this set:

Bold Blissey @ leftovers 252 hp 252 def

Serene Grace

[tbolt, Ice Beam, Calm Mind, Softboiled]

 

because dugtrio can trap it and I will have "no control of the game events" at that point. I cannot use other sets in the metagame I would like to use because I am basically "restricted" to 3 available moveslots for hail or other gimmick to dependably keep my blissey from being trap killed.

 

• I cannot use this set:

Careful Umbreon @ leftovers 252 hp 252 special def

Pursuit

Moonlight

Heal bell

Toxic

 

in the metagame because this pokemon will also get taken out by dugtrio if trapped. The presence of dugtrio restricts me from dependably being able to use this set (among others) by "taking control of the games events out of the hands" of me as a player.

 

"an example of an aspect which invalidates certain elements of play would be trapping abilities such as Shadow Tag or Arena TrapThese abilities take away the opponent's capability to switch, removing one of the most important mechanics in competitive pokemon. They are abilities which are inherently heavily uncompetitive"

 

"Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."

 

Dugtrio is not usually a sweeper. However, it is only beaten in *base speed* by 7 pokemon in our game and is capable of sweeping through a plethora of targets that are weakened and/or slower than itself.

http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/stat/speed.shtml

 

You can pursuit dugtrio to prevent further trapping; however, the pursuit user either needs to not be weak to dugtrio's moves (and in reasonable health) or must be faster in base speed. Also, being forced to carry a pursuit user to reliably stop a trapper in itself is "centralizing?". These are just more restrictions when dealing with dugtrio - "a pokemon that takes away options from the player."

Edited April 22, 2015 by bl0nde

[codylramey]

Id just like to point out blonde that uncompetitve does not equal ban worthy under our current policies. I know u never directly said tha dug deserves a bam bc its uncompetitve but it was implied. I also know you made a comment about centralization which i will not reply to somply bc i have no real opinion either way.

[Rigamorty]

Source:
https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47727-tiering-and-you/?hl=tiering+and+you

[font='times new roman']"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions."[/font]
[font='times new roman']"In other words, something that takes away options from the player, creating a lack of options"[/font]

[font='times new roman']"Things which restrict the metagame in ways which are unfavorable for an evolving competitive metagame"[/font]

• I cannot use this set:

Bold Blissey @ leftovers 252 hp 252 def
Serene Grace
[tbolt, Ice Beam, Calm Mind, Softboiled]

because dugtrio can trap it and I will have "no control of the game events" at that point. I cannot use other sets in the metagame I would like to use because I am basically "restricted" to 3 available moveslots for hail or other gimmick to dependably keep my blissey from being trap killed.

• I cannot use this set:

Careful Umbreon @ leftovers 252 hp 252 special def
Pursuit
Moonlight
Heal bell
Toxic

in the metagame because this pokemon will also get taken out by dugtrio if trapped. The presence of dugtrio restricts me from dependably being able to use this set (among others) by "taking control of the games events out of the hands" of me as a player.

[font='times new roman']"an example of an aspect which invalidates certain elements of play would be trapping abilities such as Shadow Tag or Arena TrapThese abilities take away the opponent's capability to switch, removing one of the most important mechanics in competitive pokemon. They are abilities which are inherently heavily uncompetitive"[/font]

[font='times new roman']"Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."[/font]

Dugtrio is not usually a sweeper. However, it is only beaten in *base speed* by 7 pokemon in our game and is capable of sweeping through a plethora of targets that are weakened and/or slower than itself.
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/stat/speed.shtml

You can pursuit dugtrio to prevent further trapping; however, the pursuit user either needs to not be weak to dugtrio's moves (and in reasonable health) or must be faster in base speed. Also, being forced to carry a pursuit user to reliably stop a trapper in itself is "centralizing?". These are just more restrictions when dealing with dugtrio - "a pokemon[font=arial] [/font][font=arial]that takes away options from the player."[/font]

if you get 1 or 2 spikes out dugtrio can't beat the blissey you mentioned. And trying to name a full on specific move set that loses to dugtrio 100% is too specific.

I could say just the same that oh my dugtrio is in on aerodactyl with pursuit and that gives me no control over what happens because I die no matter what, ban aerodactyl.

[DoubleJ]

That set beats the choice band variant.

[bl0nde]

I could say just the same that oh my dugtrio is in on aerodactyl with pursuit and that gives me no control over what happens because I die no matter what, ban aerodactyl.

 

To be clear, my post says is explaining why dugtrio is unhealthy for the game.

 

So you are saying that you can say "the same" about aerodactyl, i.e., aerodactyl is unhealthy for the game because it can pursuit trap a weakened dugtrio?

Edited April 24, 2015 by bl0nde

[Robofiend]

So you are saying that you can say "the same" about aerodactyl, i.e., aerodactyl is unhealthy for the game because it can pursuit trap a weakened dugtrio?

 

Doesn't even have to be weakened: 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 250-295 (124.3 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

He's inferring from your quote and its application to Dugtrio:

 

"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions."

"In other words, something that takes away options from the player, creating a lack of options" - lol Senile what an idiot

 

That since Aerodactyl (and other Pursuit users) take away autonomy from the user they too are uncompetitive and thus banworthy.

 

However, most of us believe that uncompetitive elements of the game are not de facto banworthy, they are banworthy in light of also being unhealthy (e.g. Baton Pass, which was uncompetitive cancer). For instance, Magneton is uncompetitive in its own way as well (and much better at taking down pokemon like Metagross compared to Dugtrio, since it can easily switch in) but we're not going to ban it just because of this: there must also be an argument that it's unhealthy or meets an Uber criterion on the table.

 

I'd also like to point out that

 

You can pursuit dugtrio to prevent further trapping; however, the pursuit user either needs to not be weak to dugtrio's moves (and in reasonable health) or must be faster in base speed. Also, being forced to carry a pursuit user to reliably stop a trapper in itself is "centralizing?". These are just more restrictions when dealing with dugtrio - "a pokemon that takes away options from the player."

 

This is a bit of a gray area: you're not totally required to have a trapper on your team - Dugtrio's so fragile that it cannot switch in under almost any circumstances. It also must run either CB or SubRev to be effective, and both provide significant opportunities for your opponent to force you out of play and or Revenge kill you. For instance, Arcanine/Aero/Jolt/Gyara/Weezing/Gengar can come in on a SubRev set and threaten it out - which can end Dugtrio's life if you have spikes up and at least clears that annoying Liechi boost. Gyarados/Heracross/Metagross/Aerodactyl can all come in on a CB locked set and use their free turn to either set up the game winning Agil/DD or Pursuit trap it. Defensive P2 can also swap in, trap you and kill you. So there are around 8 solid revenge killers for Dugtrio, all of whom are very good otherwise.

 

However, Dugtrio does force the meta to adapt to its presence. Any good pokemon does that. Ever notice that you pretty much have to have checks for Metagross, Heracross, Weezing, Gengar, Gyarados and Blissey in order to win matches? Ever notice that you basically can't run Sludge Bomb Weezing because Heracross, Gyarados and Metagross can respectively abuse its limited coverage? The truth is that anything that's worth using will be centralizing to some degree because you need to have a way to deal with it if you want to be successful. It's only when there are too few ways of dealing with a pokemon that it becomes overcentralizing and unhealthy.

 

On the other hand:

 

• I cannot use this set:

Bold Blissey @ leftovers 252 hp 252 def

Serene Grace

[tbolt, Ice Beam, Calm Mind, Softboiled]

• I cannot use this set:

Careful Umbreon @ leftovers 252 hp 252 special def

Pursuit

Moonlight

Heal bell

Toxic

 

Neither of these sets are very good in their own right, so it's not only Dugtrio who's stopping them from being effective. CM Blissey lacks the support power of the Twave/Aroma sets and gets shit on really hard by Flygon/Heracross/Metagross/Superpower, so you just waste your time trying to set up and maybe getting a kill unless of course you manage to kill off all of your opponents Phys attackers first. The Umbreon set you listed gets pooped on by SubPunch Gengar and is total bait for Metagross, Forretress, Skarmory, Ursaring, Magneton and Heracross. It's not Dugtrio who's stopping you from using those sets - in fact you should be the one stopping yourself from using them, given that they're piss-poor.

 

TL;DR - uncompetitive =/= banworthy =/= unhealthy for the millionth time

[Maekaaay]

[XPLOZ]

I don't understand why this pokemon isn't banned yet. It can revenge kill so many things while the opponent can't even react. One of the only things you can do is to bring an Aero Pursuit, so that dugtrio can't come in again. However, it already fucked something and his job might be done. What if I don't want to run an Aero Pursuit ?

Some people say that something like Gyara DD is punishing. Well, not really. You will always have to face a Gyara which did 1 DD. It has already safe switches like an Arcanine. If you can't face it, your team is bad, you desserve to lose.

Oh wait, if I bring an Aero Pursuit CB to revenge dugtrio, the opponent has a free placement of Gyarados DD, hasn't he ? So I have to run an aero without CB, nice.

 

You can see how we fear this uncompetitive thing. A strategy with dugtrio is way too simple to establish. Rip brain, rip switches, rip beautiful battles. I don't agree with the sentence uncompetitive =/= banworthy. What do you want to do ? A competitive game ? If yes, it seems logical that it's banworthy.

Edited May 13, 2015 by XPLOZ

[Frag]

I propose a test ban, the test on lax was good to prove some points, so, we could do the same here.

[codylramey]

A test ban would be pointless if you use the same criteria as you did lax. Nobody changes their teams due to dug, just the wat they play after they know the opponent has one. Since we would be banning due to uncompetitve properties i dont see what a test ban is going to show us. Especially in the slow to rvolve meta we have.

[ThinkNice]

A test ban would be pointless if you use the same criteria as you did lax. Nobody changes their teams due to dug, just the wat they play after they know the opponent has one. Since we would be banning due to uncompetitve properties i dont see what a test ban is going to show us. Especially in the slow to rvolve meta we have.

>superman teams

[BurntZebra]

I don't understand why this pokemon isn't banned yet. It can revenge kill so many things while the opponent can't even react. One of the only things you can do is to bring an Aero Pursuit, so that dugtrio can't come in again. However, it already fucked something and his job might be done. What if I don't want to run an Aero Pursuit ?

Some people say that something like Gyara DD is punishing. Well, not really. You will always have to face a Gyara which did 1 DD. It has already safe switches like an Arcanine. If you can't face it, your team is bad, you desserve to lose.

Oh wait, if I bring an Aero Pursuit CB to revenge dugtrio, the opponent has a free placement of Gyarados DD, hasn't he ? So I have to run an aero without CB, nice.

 

You can see how we fear this uncompetitive thing. A strategy with dugtrio is way too simple to establish. Rip brain, rip switches, rip beautiful battles. I don't agree with the sentence uncompetitive =/= banworthy. What do you want to do ? A competitive game ? If yes, it seems logical that it's banworthy.

Well dugtrio can revenge kill some stuff, but only if it gets a safe switch and the thing its coming in vs is low enough health to die, and then you run the risk of either getting set up on once you revenge kill or getting pursuit'ed as you switch out, either by heracross, metagross, or aerodactyl usually. Also Arcanine is a safe switch for dd gyara? Think you're high or something, and definitely underestimating gyarados, many people see gyarados as the best set up sweeper as it can punish teams that rely on dugtrio/starmie/jolteon to sweep as gyarados ohkos all of those at +1 and outspeeds. Gyarados can also survive a rock slide from aero very easily, so don't really know why you would run no cb on aero.

 

And now with snorlax back, dugtrio can't really trap as easily, as it needs screech to deal with curselax and will fail to trap whirlwind lax completely. 

[Vaeldras]

I don't really like dugtrio but i'm not sure if the "trapping is uncompetitive" argument can still work with pursuit trappers being a thing now.

Don't get me wrong, dugtrio IS uncompetitive, but so is trapping in general.

I don't see it's chances of being banned increasing now that snorlax is back

[BurntZebra]

I don't really like dugtrio but i'm not sure if the "trapping is uncompetitive" argument can still work with pursuit trappers being a thing now.

Don't get me wrong, dugtrio IS uncompetitive, but so is trapping in general.

I don't see it's chances of being banned increasing now that snorlax is back

Well there's not much debate over whether trapping is uncompetitive or not, because it totally is. But what is debatable is if uncompetitive=banworthy 

[Vaeldras]

Well there's not much debate over whether trapping is uncompetitive or not, because it totally is. But what is debatable is if uncompetitive=banworthy 

 

Ah, good, thought you (the council) already had a clear opinion on that.

[Gunthug]

Well there's not much debate over whether trapping is uncompetitive or not, because it totally is. But what is debatable is if uncompetitive=banworthy 

Sorry to nitpick a little, but the question isn't if uncompetitive=banworthy, because the answer is "not always." The question is "is dugtrio banworthy" - we know that it's uncompetitive, but whether or not its banworthy depends on if the uncompetitive nature of trio rises to the level of overpowered - either by support characteristics, or by the "unhealthy" tag, since it's not probably not offensively or defensively uber by definition. The more and more I see of it, the more I wonder if it might be banworthy, even though initially my thoughts leaned towards no

Edited May 13, 2015 by Gunthug

[BurntZebra]

Ah, good, thought you (the council) already had a clear opinion on that.

Well we do (as far as I know), but community can still debate if they so desire

 

 

Sorry to nitpick a little, but the question isn't if uncompetitive=banworthy, because the answer is "not always." The question is "is dugtrio banworthy" - we know that it's uncompetitive, but whether or not its banworthy depends on if the uncompetitive nature of trio rises to the level of overpowered - either by support characteristics, or by the "unhealthy" tag, since it's not probably not offensively or defensively uber by definition. The more and more I see of it, the more I wonder if it might be banworthy, even though initially my thoughts leaned towards no

Should have specified that I am against a dugtrio ban. I just said that above for the sake of discussion on this thread because we all know dugtrio can trap stuff under certain conditions and there's no point in debating that. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by BurntZebra

[NikhilR]

Well dugtrio can revenge kill some stuff, but only if it gets a safe switch and the thing its coming in vs is low enough health to die, and then you run the risk of either getting set up on once you revenge kill or getting pursuit'ed as you switch out, either by heracross, metagross, or aerodactyl usually. Also Arcanine is a safe switch for dd gyara? Think you're high or something, and definitely underestimating gyarados, many people see gyarados as the best set up sweeper as it can punish teams that rely on dugtrio/starmie/jolteon to sweep as gyarados ohkos all of those at +1 and outspeeds. Gyarados can also survive a rock slide from aero very easily, so don't really know why you would run no cb on aero.

 

And now with snorlax back, dugtrio can't really trap as easily, as it needs screech to deal with curselax and will fail to trap whirlwind lax completely. 

 

Dugtrio can always come in after something has died and ensure a guaranteed kill on that something, which could have the potential to may be come back in and kill something else. For eg - A +2 Ursaring will possible take some damage while setting up and once it gets a kill, the dug user can take out that ursa without allowing it to dish out more damage.

 

The ONLY attack Metagross can come in and pursuit safely is Aerial Ace. A move that Dugtrio uses solely for one pokemon only, which means that your chances of killing a dugtrio using pursuit with metagross, is pretty less and in a way you'd be stupid if you were to run pursuit meta to trap dug. Heracross is somewhat valid but lets not forget how running Pursuit Heracross means that you can become set up bait for DD gyara. Same thing applies for Aerodactyl. Also what XPLOZ meant by not running CB was that if setting up Gyara was match winning, then pursuit Aero is set up bait for that. So in this case carrying Rock Slide would do some dmg to Gyara or potentially ko it, if it is at a low health.

 

Basically, whatever pokemon you guys suggest to take advantage of Dugtrio, can be used against you if you run a pursuit trapper to kill Dugtrio which basically is almost ending the match for yourself since the dugtrio user has already done his job of killing his target thus eliminating its need to exist. Whereas you probably have a lot more to lose because you might have to sack something you need, to deal with the situation. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by NikhilR

[BurntZebra]

Dugtrio can always come in after something has died and ensure a guaranteed kill on that something, which could have the potential to may be come back in and kill something else. For eg - A +2 Ursaring will possible take some damage while setting up and once it gets a kill, the dug user can take out that ursa without allowing it to dish out more damage.

 

The ONLY attack Metagross can come in and pursuit safely is Aerial Ace. A move that Dugtrio uses solely for one pokemon only, which means that your chances of killing a dugtrio using pursuit with metagross, is pretty less and in a way you'd be stupid if you were to run pursuit meta to trap dug. Heracross is somewhat valid but lets not forget how running Pursuit Heracross means that you can become set up bait for DD gyara. Same thing applies for Aerodactyl. Also what XPLOZ meant by not running CB was that if setting up Gyara was match winning, then pursuit Aero is set up bait for that. So in this case carrying Rock Slide would do some dmg to Gyara or potentially ko it, if it is at a low health.

 

Basically, whatever pokemon you guys suggest to take advantage of Dugtrio, can be used against you if you run a pursuit trapper to kill Dugtrio which basically is almost ending the match for yourself since the dugtrio user has already done his job of killing his target thus eliminating its need to exist. Whereas you probably have a lot more to lose because you might have to sack something you need to deal with the situation. 

That means sacking one pokemon to kill another pokemon with dugtrio, assuming it isn't secretly an endure salac pokemon that can turn the tables vs you, and assuming the person is running a pursuit pokemon, you are theoretically down 5-4. Metagross can only come in vs double edge, thief/pursuit (for gengar), aerial ace, and rock slide, and yeah obviously I wouldn't send in a metagross vs a dugtrio that I wasn't sure was cb locked, especially if it eq'ed something before. Pursuit metagross has use outside of dugtrio, so not sure what you're getting at there. Heracross can easily run pursuit+rock slide on one cb set as well, so not really gyarados bait either. 

Aerodactyl loses to gyarados, regardless of choice band, unless flinch, since cb rock slide won't ohko standard gyaras, which was my point originally. 

[Frag]

This discussion is going nowhere, instead of theorizing why not testing the meta without it, nobody will die if we do it.

[Rigamorty]

This discussion is going nowhere, instead of theorizing why not testing the meta without it, nobody will die if we do it.

what differences will we be looking for if we test it? How will we know if it should stay banned or not?