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Show the exact amount of hp during battles


Vaeldras

Question

1 i can't believe i couldn't find this thread anywhere (typed "show hp")

2 I can't believe it has never been implemented in the first place!

 

I mean, currently new players have an EXTREMELY unfair advantage at guessing how much damage a pokemon can take, since their eyes are not even nearly as worn and shrekt as the ones of, let's say, walrus.

 

k?

 

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% maybe, don't agree with exact number being shown.  We are talking about oponents pokemon right?  Because I feel like I recall it showing your own, maybe not in pvp I never do that I guess.

 

Lemme check, pretty sure it won't show any of em while spectating...

 

No, wait, i recall showing the exact amount of hp while nuzlocking and paydaying.

 

Not sure if % would be better though, the exact amount would be more accurate.

 

In the end one could say

 

tumblr_inline_n5gmmdx9V11rjf3sr.jpg

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If while spectating it's better not showing the exact hp number, if a friend is spectating my battle from my opponents view he can tell me the Hp at the start and i can more or less get what spread the pokemon i'm battling have beforehand

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I can see doing % of HP but certainly not exact numbers. A lot of Pokemon choose to either invest in Speed or HP (Marowak comes right to mind), and the mind games associated with that is a big part of competition. Either way, it is not needed imo, the bar does just fine. 

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This has a severe drawback. If you know exactly how much damage you're doing, you can guess the opponent's EV spread with relative accuracy.

 

If it's given by default, the EV spread is obvious, which is bad. If it's given by damage ("FEEBAS used TACKLE! MAGIKARP took 88395 damage!"), it's still not going to work.

 

Let's say that you just used Psywave (damage = 0.5-1.5x user's level) on my Aggron for some reason. Depending on which one of these that I'm using, you're going to be able to instantly figure out its approximate EV spread. If it does 50 damage and takes off more than 1/3 of my HP, it's clear that the Aggron isn't bulky. If it does considerably less, It's a bulky Aggron. Different and unusual EV spreads are instantly given away by this.

a3e22c6c34.png

 

If the opponent either knows Pokemon like the back of his hand or takes the time to calc things, he has your approximate EV spread and there is nothing you can do about it. This would be an unfair system. If you're using something super gimmicky like a defensive Pikachu, it will only have a single chance to work against each person since the opponent will know that it's weird when they hit it. Even if they OHKO it, the damage will indicate that something is off about it. They can then store this information somewhere and be ready for you and your weird Pokemon next time.

 

Damage calculations make this system automatically disadvantageous, and damage calculations are also the solution to new players not knowing how much they're doing and receiving. It's better to give the player an optional means to learn the meta (making their own calcs) rather than give scouting a whole new meaning.

Edited by RacheLucario
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thats a bit generous, it gives a rough idea of the ev spread would probs be more accurate

 

Ok, it reveals 2 stats.

It reveals an approximate defensive stat by giving you the damage done in HP.

It also reveals the approximate HP stat itself.

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Think of it as uncompetitive rather than unfair

You mean noncompetitive?

 

Everyone has their own perspective on what is competitive and what is not. I still play a game called "Dofus" an MMORPG similar to the non MMORPG final fantasy tactics advance for the gameboy advance. A turn by turn based game with many classes but similar stats to pokemon and in this game people can see the players hp/mana movement points, action points and also their gear(some gear can be hidden with cosmetics) and depending on the numbers on them you can predict/assume what type of gear they have under the gear shown and what element they are or what type of class they are playing. Whether it be a tanky type or a super aggressive type and the game is still consider competitive regardless of the info you get on the enemy because the enemy also sees your info.

 

It reveals the ev spread of your opponent.

It doesn't necessarily reveals it it gives you an idea. And this goes both ways, to you and your opponent. I don't see the imbalance in this at all.

 

I mean, I'm just saying I understand what RacheLucario is saying and what others are saying but what they are saying applies to everyone else it's not just one sided. If anything adding this feature will add to the competitiveness of the game because it means people joining the competitive scene for the first time will get their teeth knocked off and will have to adapt and overcome and learn the EV spreads of the players through either scouting/spectating COMP fights or doing research. I can also see the meta changing a lot more from time to time with this.

 

If the opponent either knows Pokemon like the back of his hand or takes the time to calc things, he has your approximate EV spread and there is nothing you can do about it. This would be an unfair system. If you're using something super gimmicky like a defensive Pikachu, it will only have a single chance to work against each person since the opponent will know that it's weird when they hit it. Even if they OHKO it, the damage will indicate that something is off about it. They can then store this information somewhere and be ready for you and your weird Pokemon next time.

 

Just wanted to take RacheLucario's quote and just say that there isn't completely nothing you can do about it, there is something you can do about it. Either know Pokemon like the back of your hand or take the time to calc things, to know the opponents approximate EV spread and counter attack. 

 

So I say again.. I don't see where this system would be unfair unlike how the system is currently. The real COMP players would just stomp most players that won't want to bother with calc or knowing Pokemon like the back of their hands.

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You mean noncompetitive?

 

Everyone has their own perspective on what is competitive and what is not. I still play a game called "Dofus" an MMORPG similar to the non MMORPG final fantasy tactics advance for the gameboy advance. A turn by turn based game with many classes but similar stats to pokemon and in this game people can see the players hp/mana movement points, action points and also their gear(some gear can be hidden with cosmetics) and depending on the numbers on them you can predict/assume what type of gear they have under the gear shown and what element they are or what type of class they are playing. Whether it be a tanky type or a super aggressive type and the game is still consider competitive regardless of the info you get on the enemy because the enemy also sees your info.

1. No I mean uncompetitive

 

2. Although it may be different for other games, for Pokemon it has always been that you can't see the exact damage amounts and to do so would be deemed uncompetitive in Pokemon. I do understand where you are coming from, I just believe that to keep ev spreads secret, knowing exact damage amounts would spoil it. I am all for % amounts as a half-way point.

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1. No I mean uncompetitive

 

2. Although it may be different for other games, for Pokemon it has always been that you can't see the exact damage amounts and to do so would be deemed uncompetitive in Pokemon. I do understand where you are coming from, I just believe that to keep ev spreads secret, knowing exact damage amounts would spoil it. I am all for % amounts as a half-way point.

Ok, I got you. But why is it different for Pokemon specifically. EV spreads will still be secret to a certain "approximate" extent. Knowing the exact damage is only half the battle, I still don't get why it would spoil the competitive play if both parties are in equal grounds with the tools at hand. 

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Ok, I got you. But why is it different for Pokemon specifically. EV spreads will still be secret to a certain "approximate" extent. Knowing the exact damage is only half the battle, I still don't get why it would spoil the competitive play if both parties are in equal grounds with the tools at hand. 

Probably because there's nothing else to do that requires skill in a pokemon battle.

A lot of the turnarounds are due to the secrets, surprises and when to reveal them.

If you knew beforehand that the opposing snorlax has surf, you're not gonna bother countering it with your rhydon.

However, goign with the assumption that he might, scouting for it safely and playing accordingly depending on whether or not you think he has it. That's where the skill comes into play.

Movesets are a bit extreme of an exaggeration, but same could be said about the EV sets.

Anyways, if you knew the opponent's team to the fullest extent, and the other yours, the battle would likely never end unless one of the two miserably screws up. But with too much info, the wrong move won't ever be played. The outcome of the battle will depend either on coinflip speedties, coinflip switch predicts, or PP stalling.

 

However, displaying a % of what damage has been done simply makes it easier to see if you'll kill it if you use the move a second time, rather than count the pixels on the health bar, and there's nothing wrong with it really.

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Probably because there's nothing else to do that requires skill in a pokemon battle.

A lot of the turnarounds are due to the secrets, surprises and when to reveal them.

If you knew beforehand that the opposing snorlax has surf, you're not gonna bother countering it with your rhydon.

However, goign with the assumption that he might, scouting for it safely and playing accordingly depending on whether or not you think he has it. That's where the skill comes into play.

Movesets are a bit extreme of an exaggeration, but same could be said about the EV sets.

Anyways, if you knew the opponent's team to the fullest extent, and the other yours, the battle would likely never end unless one of the two miserably screws up. But with too much info, the wrong move won't ever be played. The outcome of the battle will depend either on coinflip speedties, coinflip switch predicts, or PP stalling.

 

However, displaying a % of what damage has been done simply makes it easier to see if you'll kill it if you use the move a second time, rather than count the pixels on the health bar, and there's nothing wrong with it really.

That's the type of reasoning I was looking for. Most people answer with just cause, because just cause. How about actually discussing it a bit with reasons and examples, while I do agree that knowing the movesets of your opponent is a bit exaggerated. It's still moving in the right direction for the sake of argument over why this will work or why it won't and what would happen there after.

 

I don't want to sound like a broken record but I still  don't see it to be unfair or in your case as if it will require no skill at all. You still need to know Pokemon like you know the back of your hand, still need to figure out calculations and in most games where your HP can easily determine what type of characteristics your opponent carries still presents with many other factors into play(like moves he will use or if he will switch out characters) that you (the player vs said opponent) have to figure out and with the right skillsets either have a rewarding victory for doing your homework or lose miserably for taking your opponent lightly just because you think it'll be easier now that you can see his HP both % or in numbers.

 

For example, if you fight someone knowing that because of the HP amount on Pokemon(X) you can figure out what type of EVs they have on Pokemon(X) you quickly switch out to Pokemon(B ) from the Pokemon (A) you had currently out to dominate/counter Pokemon(X) the same can be said for the opponent with the Pokemon(X) sees that you switched your Pokemon out to counter him, so in turn he switches out his Pokemon(X) to Pokemon(Y) to counter your Pokemon(B ) !!BUT WAIT!! there is a twist.. your Pokemon(B ) was in fact secretly a cunning maneuver to confuse your foe because of the amount of HP your Pokemon has and it doesn't exactly have the EVs the opponent originally thought or you wanted him to think, and wait for it... ANOTHER TWIST the Pokemon(Y) was also a ploy for you to be confused as well as it was all along to easily counter your Pokemon(B ) and thus bringing us right back to where the battle was and your opponent beats you and now you need to reevaluate your skill set and that the amount of HP on your opponent may not always seem what it appears to be, leaving you to prepare for any type of battle you may encounter in the future.

 

Half way through the example I got carried away with the twist thing and well you know.. one thing let to another... but I hope you get what I'm trying to say here.

 

Edit: All my parentheses with b in the middle turned into smiley faces with shades.

Other edit: Oh and I'd like to also say that I agree with you completely on "The outcome of the battle will depend either on coinflip speedties, coinflip switch predicts, or PP stalling." But most of COMP fights feel that way already if both parties are professionals/not new to the COMP scene.

Edited by thenamesed
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