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[Denied] Stricter policies regarding scamming


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This suggestion was prompted by yet another "I got scammed thread" https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/43934-amulet-coin-and-meowth-stolen/

While I feel the onus is on the player to be vigilant at all times even the most experienced of players get outwitted atleast once(maybe a bit of an exaggeration but there'l still be players testifying to this)Yes I know you have multiple systems in place to prevent scamming,Yes I know you cant mollycoddle players and that moderating trades are near impossible,Yes I know players cant be reimbursed due to certain reasons,ie a player saying he got scammed when he really didnt just to get ahead(a form of scamming,albeit not a successful or even remotely viable one but a scam nonetheless)BUT i still feel your policies regarding scamming are a bit too laidback,I honestly feel that scammers should receive some form of punishment to discourage their current behavior.

Yes alot of the time itl be hearsay,Yes it might be time consuming to investigate it,Yes we have the Report player sub-forum(which much like the ban appeals forum never ever gets investigated,or atleast thats what a person would assume from current observations,an example being a team mate reporting a scam and getting absolutely no feed back)Yes I know currently staff are spread thin,with all the captchas being sent to people paydaying ingame and such,but if a person has sufficient proof,ie detailed screenshots where you can explicitly see a person has been scammed,the offender should be investigated and some form of punishment should be dealt out...Your current policies encourage scamming in the sense that the offender knows no punishment will be dealt out so they can go on right ahead and scam til their hearts content,whilst this should be a behaviour thats discouraged and dealt with properly with suitable means of punishment..My suggestion boils down to this;stop being so nonchalant when it comes to scamming,pro-actively deal with these people to curb this disgusting behaviour,investigate and follow up on said cases,put punishments in place.what many people dont take into account is that a majority of the player base are children,and we all know that unfortunately they lack the maturity to discern when someone is being honest or not,by nature they gullible and naive.these are the kinda players we should be protecting,not the scammers..

 

Please take into account everything I've said.I feel I've made valid points but not every one shares the same views so if you against my suggestion please discuss it in a civil manner(no flaming plox)

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This suggestion was prompted by yet another "I got scammed thread" https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/43934-amulet-coin-and-meowth-stolen/

While I feel the onus is on the player to be vigilant at all times even the most experienced of players get outwitted atleast once(maybe a bit of an exaggeration but there'l still be players testifying to this)Yes I know you have multiple systems in place to prevent scamming,Yes I know you cant mollycoddle players and that moderating trades are near impossible,Yes I know players cant be reimbursed due to certain reasons,ie a player saying he got scammed when he really didnt just to get ahead(a form of scamming,albeit not a successful or even remotely viable one but a scam nonetheless)BUT i still feel your policies regarding scamming are a bit too laidback,I honestly feel that scammers should receive some form of punishment to discourage their current behavior.

Yes alot of the time itl be hearsay,Yes it might be time consuming to investigate it,Yes we have the Report player sub-forum(which much like the ban appeals forum never ever gets investigated,or atleast thats what a person would assume from current observations,an example being a team mate reporting a scam and getting absolutely no feed back)Yes I know currently staff are spread thin,with all the captchas being sent to people paydaying ingame and such,but if a person has sufficient proof,ie detailed screenshots where you can explicitly see a person has been scammed,the offender should be investigated and some form of punishment should be dealt out...Your currently policies encourage scamming in the sense that the offender knows no punishment will be dealt out so they can go on right ahead and scam til their hearts content,whilst this should be a behaviour thats discouraged and dealt with properly with suitable means of punishment..My suggestion boils down to this;stop being so nonchalant when it comes to scamming,pro-actively deal with these people to curb this disgusting behaviour,investigate and follow up on said cases,put punishments in place.what many people dont take into account is that a majority of the player base are children,and we all know that unfortunately they lack the maturity to discern when someone is being honest or not,by nature they gullible and naive.these are the kinda players we should be protecting,not the scammers..

 

Please take into account everything I've said.I feel I've made valid points but not every one shares the same views so if you against my suggestion please discuss it in a civil manner(no flaming plox)

it's not that they just let the players deal with it themselves. It's the fact that they can't actually do anything about it. I'll use Runescape as an example. In Runescape, when someone makes a report about being scammed, and log is created that copies chat and multiple other things that allow staff to review and decide if the player was actually scammed, and by whom they were scammed. In PokeMMO, from what I can tell, the report system works by the player submitting the report, the staff member reads what the player had to say and then let's them know what they should do, etc. They don't have any evidence created. Therefore, all accusations towards a scammer would be hearsay which is in no way suitable evidence to pass judgement upon a player. Even if you tell the player to take multiple pictures, etc. just remember there is always photoshop. Basically, what I am saying is that PokeMMO doesn't have a system that is required to deal with scammers.

 

(also everything that I said here is based upon the assumption that PokeMMO doesn't have the function to log chat etc. like Runescape does. So if I am wrong about that, then disregard everything I said above).

 

Yes I know currently staff are spread thin

 

I'm always available for hire, though I have a strange sense I will never be seriously considered.

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it's not that they just let the players deal with it themselves. It's the fact that they can't actually do anything about it. I'll use Runescape as an example. In Runescape, when someone makes a report about being scammed, and log is created that copies chat and multiple other things that allow staff to review and decide if the player was actually scammed, and by whom they were scammed. In PokeMMO, from what I can tell, the report system works by the player submitting the report, the staff member reads what the player had to say and then let's them know what they should do, etc. They don't have any evidence created. Therefore, all accusations towards a scammer would be hearsay which is in no way suitable evidence to pass judgement upon a player. Even if you tell the player to take multiple pictures, etc. just remember there is always photoshop. Basically, what I am saying is that PokeMMO doesn't have a system that is required to deal with scammers.

 

(also everything that I said here is based upon the assumption that PokeMMO doesn't have the function to log chat etc. like Runescape does. So if I am wrong about that, then disregard everything I said above).

 

 

I'm always available for hire, though I have a strange sense I will never be seriously considered.

I don't think it does,if it does then it would make investigating cases a whole lot easier,yes photo shop creates a problem in itself with the current method of reporting a player but the problem is evidently there,if runescape has put systems in place to actively deal with this problem then maybe the devs should consider making a system with the same principles put in place,its evidently frowned upon over there from what i can gather(never played it)so why are the mods taking such a laid back stance to it over here?I know you have multiple systems in place but it still doesnt address the problem,it makes scamming alot harder yes but it doesnt discourage the behaviour...all im saying is I feel scammers should be dealt with appropriately,even if its just successfully dealing with 1 case to make an example to all the other scammers out there... 

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THREE Conformations to trade.

How can you fall for anything unless you're that thick?

No offence, but I still think that if people can fall for scams, they should just not put blind faith in people they've never met before -.-''

You've made valid points, but stupidity and greed is everywhere and campaigning against it is pointless.

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THREE Conformations to trade.

How can you fall for anything unless you're that thick?

No offence, but I still think that if people can fall for scams, they should just not put blind faith in people they've never met before -.-''

You've made valid points, but stupidity and greed is everywhere and campaigning against it is pointless.

evil succeeds when good men do nothing,i too had the same stance you did rin babeh but its a problem that needs to be addressed,Yes as i said the devs were gracious enough to put all the safety precautions in place to protect us but at the end of the day its still a problem that should be dealt with,I honestly think that getting off scot free for basically committing fraud is bs,whether the person was ignorant/dumb/naive/gullible it still doesn't subtract from the fact that whats going on is wrong..offenders should be punished,end of...this is ofcourse just my opinion and maybe Im just over thinking shit again..

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evil succeeds when good men do nothing,i too had the same stance you did rin babeh but its a problem that needs to be addressed,Yes as i said the devs were gracious enough to put all the safety precautions in place to protect us but at the end of the day its still a problem that should be dealt with,I honestly think that getting off scot free for basically committing fraud is bs,whether the person was ignorant/dumb/naive/gullible it still doesn't subtract from the fact that whats going on is wrong..offenders should be punished,end of...this is ofcourse just my opinion and maybe Im just over thinking shit again..

 

I agree, but in equal stance, stupidity needs to be punished too.

Punish scammers, sure. What about those stupid enough to let it happen?

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I agree, but in equal stance, stupidity needs to be punished too.

Punish scammers, sure. What about those stupid enough to let it happen?

Well if you look at it from their perspective they have been punished for their stupidity,they got scammed and lost something valuable to them..punishment enough I'd say?they've learnt their lesson and hopefully will be a lil wiser for it..seems all the scammers get,are the spoils of dishonesty...

 

The only policy you need is don't be stupid

i very clearly said i feel the onus is on the player to be vigilant,But look at this from a different perspective,you basically rewarding scammers for their disgusting behaviour by blaming the victim when its the offender and not the victim that should suffer the repercussions,not all people that have been scammed are complete tards,some are naive,some gullible,some lack the maturity to differentiate between honesty and dishonesty,yes they should be more careful,I wholeheartedly agree with that,but for what ever reason they had a lapse of judgement and in the process got scammed,while this is a learning curb for any one in life(we all learn sooner or later no one can really be trusted)and they wiser and more aware for it i still think the fact that the scammer gets off scott free is wrong..thats what im getting at here,whether the victim was an idiot or not does that really excuse what the offender did?donno man,just doesnt seem right to me

 

you are probably posting this because you got scammed

Please learn to read before making a biased statement,in my first sentence I very clearly pointed out what prompted me to start this suggestion...

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/report [playername] [description]

Submits a report on the player with a snapshot of the past 30 seconds to a minute of chat and trade history

 

Never return anything to the person who got scammed, but definitely punish the scammers. They're a detriment to the people trying to actually play the game. Even if you don't get scammed, it's annoying to have people constantly try. It also makes the game look incredibly unprofessional when new players find out that it's not against the rules to scam.

 

That being said, unless they have some moderator tools to view the logs of what happened (for example, the /report I suggested) it's just not practical for the moderators to enforce much of anything when it comes to player interactions. "Don't make a rule you can't enforce" is a good policy, but it's probably time to work on making it enforcable.

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And what about the people who get a bad trade, think about it and scream "SCAMMER!!!"?

It's never going to work. Next update devs are adding decimals for trading moneys, so that you actually don't have to count the zeros.

The best that can be done is to make a "Scams to look for" in FAQ. Trading system is already too good and you must really not care to get scammed. 1 year ago there were so many more scammers, I remember global was spammed by kids complaining they got scammed. Now trades work well and people seem to be less stupid, or maybe scammers are worse, I dont know. I've also heard 2 years ago there were many scammers because trading didn't show shinies and item icon, so Lucky Punch was traded instead of Lucky Egg.

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This is almost like extreme feminism for god sake. There has been enough done to 'prevent' scamming. If players aren't paying any attention or blindly trust another player it's not fault of 'the system'. And it's not something 'the system' can fix.

 

'ITS NOT OUR JOBS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ITS THE GOVERNMENT I TELL YOU ITS THE LAW OF THE WORLD'

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This is almost like extreme feminism for god sake. There has been enough done to 'prevent' scamming. If players aren't paying any attention or blindly trust another player it's not fault of 'the system'. And it's not something 'the system' can fix.
 
'ITS NOT OUR JOBS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ITS THE GOVERNMENT I TELL YOU ITS THE LAW OF THE WORLD'


It's more of a matter of wanting Staff to not implicitly encourage scamming... Because the people who would get scammed get scammed despite the barriers in place (i.e. trade evos, holding pokes to transfer, etc.), which is possible to scam if you pretend to be the person's friend for a long enough time. Scams like these should be punished.
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And what about the people who get a bad trade, think about it and scream "SCAMMER!!!"?

It's never going to work. Next update devs are adding decimals for trading moneys, so that you actually don't have to count the zeros.

The best that can be done is to make a "Scams to look for" in FAQ. Trading system is already too good and you must really not care to get scammed. 1 year ago there were so many more scammers, I remember global was spammed by kids complaining they got scammed. Now trades work well and people seem to be less stupid, or maybe scammers are worse, I dont know. I've also heard 2 years ago there were many scammers because trading didn't show shinies and item icon, so Lucky Punch was traded instead of Lucky Egg.

Theres a difference between making a bad trade and getting scammed,I acknowledge there are systems that were well thought out and implemented to make trading safer,thats not the point im trying to make,while it does make it alot harder to scam, people still find new ways and tricks to bypass all this,Flareblitz for example had a person mimic his name using a capital I in place of a lower case L and this person deceived a friend of his who was holding onto his shinies,and the sad thing is that its starting to catch on(i heard of a dusclops getting scammed that way recently)fortunately the devs will be fixing that problem next update,the fact is without consequences scammers are free to do what they want to,now if they knew there were repercussions i think we could safely say that this would work as a deterrent,while it might not stop it completely(as in in the case with botting)it will reduce the number of people trying to gain things dishonestly..I just dont understand where your logic comes from when you advocate scamming by saying people who were stupid enough to get scammed deserve it.regardless of whether a person was foolish or not it doesnt make scamming right and it needs be punished

 

/report [playername] [description]

Submits a report on the player with a snapshot of the past 30 seconds to a minute of chat and trade history

 

Never return anything to the person who got scammed, but definitely punish the scammers. They're a detriment to the people trying to actually play the game. Even if you don't get scammed, it's annoying to have people constantly try. It also makes the game look incredibly unprofessional when new players find out that it's not against the rules to scam.

 

That being said, unless they have some moderator tools to view the logs of what happened (for example, the /report I suggested) it's just not practical for the moderators to enforce much of anything when it comes to player interactions. "Don't make a rule you can't enforce" is a good policy, but it's probably time to work on making it enforcable.

 

+1,i think the devs should seriously consider implementing something along these lines,I think a log recording all the events as gilan pointed out runescape does would help to effectively deal with accusations of being scammed.but yes i agree with you on everything..its time something is done about it.

It's more of a matter of wanting Staff to not implicitly encourage scamming... Because the people who would get scammed get scammed despite the barriers in place (i.e. trade evos, holding pokes to transfer, etc.), which is possible to scam if you pretend to be the person's friend for a long enough time. Scams like these should be punished.

agreed

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it's not that they just let the players deal with it themselves. It's the fact that they can't actually do anything about it. I'll use Runescape as an example. In Runescape, when someone makes a report about being scammed, and log is created that copies chat and multiple other things that allow staff to review and decide if the player was actually scammed, and by whom they were scammed. In PokeMMO, from what I can tell, the report system works by the player submitting the report, the staff member reads what the player had to say and then let's them know what they should do, etc. They don't have any evidence created. Therefore, all accusations towards a scammer would be hearsay which is in no way suitable evidence to pass judgement upon a player. Even if you tell the player to take multiple pictures, etc. just remember there is always photoshop. Basically, what I am saying is that PokeMMO doesn't have a system that is required to deal with scammers.

 

(also everything that I said here is based upon the assumption that PokeMMO doesn't have the function to log chat etc. like Runescape does. So if I am wrong about that, then disregard everything I said above).

 

 

I'm always available for hire, though I have a strange sense I will never be seriously considered.

tfw PokeMMO does have the ability to get chat logs.

m8, any MMO worth it's salt is capable of recording chat logs. Probably not having them saved indefinitely, and maybe they don't actually save them because of space issues, but they're at the very least capable of doing so.

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tfw PokeMMO does have the ability to get chat logs.

m8, any MMO worth it's salt is capable of recording chat logs. Probably not having them saved indefinitely, and maybe they don't actually save them because of space issues, but they're at the very least capable of doing so.

Cool. They should use it.

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Cool. They should use it.

Except for the fact it's not that simple. As I said, storing the chat logs could be an issue, but it's not just that.

The fact of the matter is, there's no way CM's are trusted with chat logs, as far as I can see. I'd be surprised if GM's could and it wasn't just SGM's, but I could be wrong on that. But even assuming GM's can gain access to it, GM's already have tons of responsibilities to begin with, and now you're asking them to use their time scouring through chat logs of dozens of reports per day, determine which are scams or not, and then determine appropriate action because some guy lost his level 32 Kadabra.

They don't have the time or manpower to handle all of that, and as fucking dumb as it is that scamming is basically encouraged, they're basically incapable of all the work that policing scamming would entail. That's just how it is.

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so, a question for staff who might know this. Is storing chat logs an issue (does it use up too much space etc.)?

 

if not, then the solution would be to get more staff, or finally trust their CMs... (the punishment could simply be mutes. Therefore if a CM does abuse their power it wouldn't really have a huge impact and could be easily fixed and then they would be stripped of their title)

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Has anyone ever witnessed a staff member saying "it's not against the rules to scam?"

They don't moderate trades. People have different definitions of scams, from not getting what they're told to figuring out they got a bad deal. The staff don't need to get involved in that, people should get informed, understand the mechanics of a trade, etc.

The only thing staff could potentially do is link a scamming warning/guide in game, and at that point it would only to make them look better and it most likely would not reduce the frequency of scamming as people don't seem to read/people don't all speak English.

It's not that the staff do not care, it's that they don't have the tools to be involved and they're not implemented because they can't be babysitting everyone. Majority of scams are people losing their precious storyline level 77 charizards, it's not usually shinys etc like everyone thinks.

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Has anyone ever witnessed a staff member saying "it's not against the rules to scam?"

They don't moderate trades. People have different definitions of scams, from not getting what they're told to figuring out they got a bad deal. The staff don't need to get involved in that, people should get informed, understand the mechanics of a trade, etc.

The only thing staff could potentially do is link a scamming warning/guide in game, and at that point it would only to make them look better and it most likely would not reduce the frequency of scamming as people don't seem to read/people don't all speak English.

It's not that the staff do not care, it's that they don't have the tools to be involved and they're not implemented because they can't be babysitting everyone. Majority of scams are people losing their precious storyline level 77 charizards, it's not usually shinys etc like everyone thinks.

We are here today to change that to "it is against the rules to scam"

 

Hire more staff that are specialized for dealing with such things

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Has anyone ever witnessed a staff member saying "it's not against the rules to scam?"

No, they use that bullshit evasive "we don't moderate trades" which means the exact same thing. There's no distinction between the two statements except that it sounds bad to say "You're allowed to scam"

 

Edit: And to be clear, I really don't care about the people who get scammed. My problem is with the people scamming. They're a pain in the ass, and by allowing it you actually make scamming a part of the game.

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We are here today to change that to "it is against the rules to scam"

 

Hire more staff that are specialized for dealing with such things

Here's the thing I don't think you understand; They are incapable of all the work it would require. I repeat, incapable. They cannot manage, they do not have the workforce to do it.

And no, they aren't going to trust CM's more. CM's are like the introductory period to staff, to determine they're even worth trusting. And while you could argue against it, I can only imagine the trouble bad CM's from back in the day could have caused if they had actual power. Because of the nature of the staff system, they don't have enough people to police scamming and probably never will.

 

Really, the only real way around this would be to pay "professionals" to act as GM's and moderate things like other MMO's, as they can be trusted (because who the fuck goes "let's abuse on a pokemon MMO and get fired"), but they obviously don't have the funds to even entertain this thought.

 

[spoiler]inb4 people try to tell me they do have money for that, get out of my face plebian.[/spoiler]

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No, they use that bullshit evasive "we don't moderate trades" which means the exact same thing. There's no distinction between the two statements except that it sounds bad to say "You're allowed to scam"

 

Edit: And to be clear, I really don't care about the people who get scammed. My problem is with the people scamming. They're a pain in the ass, and by allowing it you actually make scamming a part of the game.

Except it's not a bullshit argument because it takes a hell of a lot of man power to moderate every trade reported. Not to mention everybody has a different opinion about what a 'scam' actually is.

 

The only reason they 'allow' scamming is because they can't regulate scamming thus they can't disallow it. The only thing they can do is make people aware of these things.

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Except for the fact it's not that simple. As I said, storing the chat logs could be an issue, but it's not just that.

The fact of the matter is, there's no way CM's are trusted with chat logs, as far as I can see. I'd be surprised if GM's could and it wasn't just SGM's, but I could be wrong on that. But even assuming GM's can gain access to it, GM's already have tons of responsibilities to begin with, and now you're asking them to use their time scouring through chat logs of dozens of reports per day, determine which are scams or not, and then determine appropriate action because some guy lost his level 32 Kadabra.

They don't have the time or manpower to handle all of that, and as fucking dumb as it is that scamming is basically encouraged, they're basically incapable of all the work that policing scamming would entail. That's just how it is.

perhaps a possible solution could be to allow cms to sift through the majority of complaints and forward on the ones they feel could be considered scamming to the Gms/SGms,having absolutely no role in the final decision making.even if 1-2 cases were dealt with regularly it could serve as an example to the other wanna be scammers out there,if they know its a punishable offense they'l tread alot more carefully,hopefully serving as a deterrent,whilst it is a near impossible task its not something that cant be done,Im not saying deal with every single case,but at the very least make an effort,show the community something is actually being done about it...

 

Has anyone ever witnessed a staff member saying "it's not against the rules to scam?"

They don't moderate trades. People have different definitions of scams, from not getting what they're told to figuring out they got a bad deal. The staff don't need to get involved in that, people should get informed, understand the mechanics of a trade, etc.

The only thing staff could potentially do is link a scamming warning/guide in game, and at that point it would only to make them look better and it most likely would not reduce the frequency of scamming as people don't seem to read/people don't all speak English.

It's not that the staff do not care, it's that they don't have the tools to be involved and they're not implemented because they can't be babysitting everyone. Majority of scams are people losing their precious storyline level 77 charizards, it's not usually shinys etc like everyone thinks.

Its not about the value of whats gotten scammed,its the thought behind it,its the fact that its happening and nothing is done about it,while you make extremely valid points(being a former staff member and having the first hand experience to back it up)the fact is something should be done about it,no matter how minute,no matter how minuscule,if nothing is done to curb the behaviour nothing will change...rome wasn't built in a day

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