120 Base Power Outrage

[Dracosworn]

Basically, give them a reason to use it, its just inferior to Dragon Claw, only 10+ power than Dragon Claw isn't enough to make people use it, Outrage trapps you, if opponent switches to a scizor you are dead, with 90 base power only don't make you really sweep, even with STAB, also because its a Special move, I think 120 base power wouldn't be that OP since only special variants of Salamence/Dragonite would use it anyway, maybe some arcanine but it wouldn't be that OP. what do you guys think

[RysPicz]

Don't forget about Kingdra.

[fredrichnietze]

well kingdra would be a lot lot stronger

Kingdra Hidden Power Dragon vs. Vaporeon: 72-85 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs

Kingdra Hidden Power Dragon vs. Vaporeon: 95-112 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

special salamance is in fact a thing

rash 252 spa att sala vs 0 hp/sp def ev's starm

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Starmie: 115-136 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

120 outrage vs max hp kingdra

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Kingdra: 210-248 (115.3 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

90 vs max hp kingdra

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Kingdra: 159-188 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

120 vs 0 hp/sp def ev's gar

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Gengar: 127-150 (94 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

vs max def vap 

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Vaporeon: 105-124 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

TL;DR giving salamance a 120 power stab spec move with no fairy's around and very few steel types (which it gets fireblast for) is a bad idea. not even going to get into kingdra/arcanine/ect...

[Senile]

well kingdra would be a lot lot stronger

Kingdra Hidden Power Dragon vs. Vaporeon: 72-85 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs

Kingdra Hidden Power Dragon vs. Vaporeon: 95-112 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

special salamance is in fact a thing

rash 252 spa att sala vs 0 hp/sp def ev's starm

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Starmie: 115-136 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

120 outrage vs max hp kingdra

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Kingdra: 210-248 (115.3 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

90 vs max hp kingdra

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Kingdra: 159-188 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

120 vs 0 hp/sp def ev's gar

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Gengar: 127-150 (94 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

vs max def vap 

Salamence Hidden Power Dragon vs. Vaporeon: 105-124 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

TL;DR giving salamance a 120 power stab spec move with no fairy's around and very few steel types (which it gets fireblast for) is a bad idea. not even going to get into kingdra/arcanine/ect...

Basically this. Base 120 STAB Dragon moves are dangerous. I could imagine DragMag teams popping up already, Magneton shitting on steel types followed by Salamence/Dragonite shitting all over the guy's remaining team. The strong special walls help, sure, but they aren't fullproof.

[fredrichnietze]

Basically this. Base 120 STAB Dragon moves are dangerous. I could imagine DragMag teams popping up already, Magneton shitting on steel types followed by Salamence/Dragonite shitting all over the guy's remaining team. The strong special walls help, sure, but they aren't fullproof.

especially since sala can 2hko bliss and dnite can 1hko so switching in your spec walls isnt even safe

[BurntZebra]

Fred, you act like salamence can destroy a whole team but once it chooses outrage, starmie can come in, survive an outrage (bulky starmie is very common) and okho salamence without any chance of switching out

[fredrichnietze]

Fred, you act like salamence can destroy a whole team but once it chooses outrage, starmie can come in, survive an outrage (bulky starmie is very common) and okho salamence without any chance of switching out

bulky starm meet bulky sala. lives the ice beam and kills vap/starm/ect.... leaving dnite with no counters left.

[Senile]

Fred, you act like salamence can destroy a whole team but once it chooses outrage, starmie can come in, survive an outrage (bulky starmie is very common) and okho salamence without any chance of switching out

You don't attempt an outrage sweep until you've scouted your opponent's team anyway, if Starmie is at full health and you lock yourself into an Outrage, you fucked up.

 

[spoiler]fuck starmie, kingdra og[/spoiler]

[Dracosworn]

I agree, its a sucky idea ._. Forget about kingdra

[BurntZebra]

Well anyways, speaking of base power changes, would increasing base power of pin missile/bullet seed/hi jump kick be a good idea? (I'm probably forgetting a few other moves)

[Dracosworn]

none uses pin missile / bullet seed so yes; idk how many pokemanz have acess to Hi Jump Kick, so Idk

[fredrichnietze]

Well anyways, speaking of base power changes, would increasing base power of pin missile/bullet seed/hi jump kick be a good idea? (I'm probably forgetting a few other moves)

i'll make up a complete list but it'll take a while

[Senile]

Well anyways, speaking of base power changes, would increasing base power of pin missile/bullet seed/hi jump kick be a good idea? (I'm probably forgetting a few other moves)

Hi Jump Kick, dear god no. Just imagine CB Medicham coming out, running around with a base 130 attack STAB with almost no drawback.

 

Bullet Seed and Pin Missile have no real harm in being buffed, but it's not necessary, and don't really support that change.

 

[spoiler]also this isn't really relevant to this thread.[spoiler]also guys stop suggesting ridiculous bp increases, like wtf guys, calm down[/spoiler][/spoiler]

[BurntZebra]

Hi Jump Kick, dear god no. Just imagine CB Medicham coming out, running around with a base 130 attack STAB with almost no drawback.

 

Bullet Seed and Pin Missile have no real harm in being buffed, but it's not necessary, and don't really support that change.

 

[spoiler]also this isn't really relevant to this thread.[spoiler]also guys stop suggesting ridiculous bp increases, like wtf guys, calm down[/spoiler][/spoiler]

>CB

>Medicham

Would probably make hitmons OU possibly and pin missile buff would make forretress a bit more offensive and bullet seed for killing rhydons

[Senile]

>CB

>Medicham

Would probably make hitmons OU possibly and pin missile buff would make forretress a bit more offensive and bullet seed for killing rhydons

Yes, CB and Medicham. Do you think that just because those things aren't in yet doesn't mean they won't be a concern when they're put in? That's not how that works. The devs aren't going to change to future gen mechanics until a pokemon comes out and then change it back. So, no, saying "lol dey rnt out yet, pls go" isn't an argument, the fact they exist in 3rd gen makes them a concern. Period. Beyond that, you haven't really given any actual reason to add it.

 

Pin Missile and Bullet Seed would just become HP Grass/Bug but more likely to swing battles entirely from RNG, and can break subs. No, we don't need to buff those moves an encourage powerful RNG based moves to thrive. I don't think promoting the use of a move with a base power of 50-125 would be good for anyone's sanity, when we already have a more reliable option available that does basically the same thing minus the sub scrubbing and RNG.

[fredrichnietze]

ok so this took a while scrubs so pls actually read this

 

ok so moves that have had their base power changed after gen 3

 

1. fly 70--->90
2. vine whip 35--->45
3. jump kick 70--->100
4. tackle 35--->40
5. thrash 90--->120
6. pin missile 14--->25
7. flamethrower 95--->90
8. hydro pump 120--->110
9. surf 95--->90
10. ice beam 95--->90
11. blizzard 120--->110
12. petal dance 70--->120
13. fire spin 15--->35
14. thunderbolt 95--->90
15. thunder 120--->110
16. dig 60--->80
17. lick 20--->30
18. smog 20--->30
19. fire blast 120--->110
20. skull bash 100--->130
21. hi jump kick 85--->130
22. bubble 20--->40
23. crab hammer 90--->100
24. snore 40--->50
25. thief 40--->60
26. outrage 90--->120
27. giga drain 60--->75
28. furry cutter 10--->40 (doubles with each consecutive use)
29. hidden power 30-70--->60
30. future sight 80--->120
31. rock smash 20--->40
32. whirlpool 15--->35
33. beat up somehow changed
34. uproar 50--->90
35. heatwave 100--->95
36. smelling salts 60--->70
37. knock off 20--->65
38. meteor mash 100--->90
39. air cutter 55--->60
40. overheat 140--->130
41. rock tomb 50--->60
42. sand tomb 15--->35
43. bullet seed 10--->25
44. muddy water 95--->90
45. icicle spear 10--->25
46. covet 40--->60
47. doom desire 120-->140

things i see interesting are

fly giving people a viable hard hitting flying attack at the cost of 2 turns (like bounce with 5 more power and no para)

jump/hi jump kick are ok on most things but we'd have to ban medicham(which i think would be worth it as it would let quiet a few things counter snor/bliss)

the nerfing of many of the elemental attacks which is ok as they are already very strong.

petal dance buff makes several grass types very real threats possibly too much

outrage which would make the dragons broken

giga drain boost checking those bulky waters

knock off new meta

the 2-5 turn attacks becoming actually viable and checking sub's a bit more

and rock tomb becoming much more viable

[BurntZebra]

Yes, CB and Medicham. Do you think that just because those things aren't in yet doesn't mean they won't be a concern when they're put in? That's not how that works. The devs aren't going to change to future gen mechanics until a pokemon comes out and then change it back. So, no, saying "lol dey rnt out yet, pls go" isn't an argument, the fact they exist in 3rd gen makes them a concern. Period. Beyond that, you haven't really given any actual reason to add it.

 

Pin Missile and Bullet Seed would just become HP Grass/Bug but more likely to swing battles entirely from RNG, and can break subs. No, we don't need to buff those moves an encourage powerful RNG based moves to thrive. I don't think promoting the use of a move with a base power of 50-125 would be good for anyone's sanity, when we already have a more reliable option available that does basically the same thing minus the sub scrubbing and RNG.

Well with the CB and medicham logic, you can use that logic with most stuff, Well we might as well ban everything that will be OP when choice band comes out. Why are any updates added? More damage obviously, why is hp changed from 60 to 70? more damage, same with increasing damage on hi jump kick and pin missile, its a bit more drastic though but who suggested that we changed it to the gen 6 damage, gen 4 hi jump kick is 100 base power and much more realistic than 130 base power. I won't argue about the sub scrubbing and RNG though

[Senile]

Well with the CB and medicham logic, you can use that logic with most stuff, Well we might as well ban everything that will be OP when choice band comes out. Why are any updates added? More damage obviously, why is hp changed from 60 to 70? more damage, same with increasing damage on hi jump kick and pin missile, its a bit more drastic though but who suggested that we changed it to the gen 6 damage, gen 4 hi jump kick is 100 base power and much more realistic than 130 base power. I won't argue about the sub scrubbing and RNG though

We're not going to "ban everything that will be OP when choice band comes out", and more importantly, what are you talking about. The devs adding a mechanic to the game isn't the same as banning something. I don't understand what the comparison you're making even is here.

HP was changed to 70 because of the limited movepools in Generation 3, which made HP critical to most pokemon's movesets. The base 60 change significantly limits the power of attacks in Generation 3, as it cripples one of the only coverage moves available to most pokemon. It wasn't a mindless buff, it was a buff to restore balance; Generation 3 was balanced around base 70 HP, base 60 misses out on a LOT of KO's. Changing HP to it's original damage isn't the same as buffing a move's power to that of a future generation.

 

Base 100 is still quite hefty, and a much stronger physical STAB than most pokemon were intended to have. 3rd generation physical attackers are balanced around having lower base power/accuracy moves than special attackers, but having more ease of boost with widespread SD/DDance and CB. Just handing over a base 100 STAB move with an excellent typing isn't a good idea, even if most of the users aren't "that great".

 

fly giving people a viable hard hitting flying attack at the cost of 2 turns (like bounce with 5 more power and no para)

No reason to add this, don't agree with.

jump/hi jump kick are ok on most things but we'd have to ban medicham(which i think would be worth it as it would let quiet a few things counter snor/bliss)

Getting the single best wallbreaker to exist banned and moving up 3 pokemon (well, maybe only 2, because lolhitmonchanistrash) is hardly what I'd call "worth it"; Also, there's literally no way Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan would be able to counter a Snorlax even with this change, as they still get hit really hard by Body Slam. Hitmontop, maybe, but I doubt it'll ever get a place in OU beyond much more than a gimmick even with this buff.

 

Beyond that, I don't think "fuck snorlax/blissey" is a very good reason to add such an overwhelmingly powerful move to begin with.

the nerfing of many of the elemental attacks which is ok as they are already very strong.

No. The elemental attacks were made this way for a reason. Special attackers are balanced differently from physical attackers, especially so without 3rd gen having Life Orb or Choice Specs.

petal dance buff makes several grass types very real threats possibly too much

outrage which would make the dragons broken

No need for these anyway.

giga drain boost checking those bulky waters

No, use HP Grass if BP is a concern; Removing the decision between HP Grass and Giga Drain is eh.

knock off new meta

I'm sure you're joking, so I won't explain.

the 2-5 turn attacks becoming actually viable and checking sub's a bit more

Covered this already.

and rock tomb becoming much more viable

No need for this.

PS: This thread is for Outrage, not all this other shit; Not sure why we're discussing this, it's only tangentially related at best.

[Gunthug]

I think what Fred's list highlights the most is just how arbitrary it would be to change the base power of 1 single move that got changed in later gens. Either we change them all, or we don't change any of them. Changing them all would be too much of a meta shift IMO, so just leave them be. None of the BP shifts are necessary anyway (unlike HP to 70).

[nickesco]

Let's just sit still and wait to see what happens people. I honestly just want a new region with new pokemon to catch. We can worry about the other small stuff afterwards. I'm sure that they're not going to change any moves until after alpha is completed if they do at all.