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[Implemented] Make Wish Abide by 4th Gen Mechanics


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In gen3 the order of when Wish kicks in:

 

Turn 1 - Wish is used

 

Turn 2

Pokemon A makes a move

Pokemon B makes a move

If pokemon on the side that used wish in previous turn now faints out Trainer choose a new pokemon

Wish kicks in

 

Turn3

 

 

 

How it should be:

 

Turn 1

Wish was used

 

Turn 2

Pokemon make their moves or switch out.

Wish kicks in

Trainer choose new pokemon

 

 

 

This is also how the priority was later made in gen4 and onwards. Not because the metagame had changed, but because they realized how this (lets call it a bug) could be taken missintended advantage of in competitive play.

 

More or less the same as why struggle was also changed from gen3 and onto later gen (see other thread for this subject)

 

This is a pokemmo based on gen3 but meant to be something more. A better version if I may say so. Although the current mechanics for wish is not straight out broken, I would highly recommend a change here into how the mechanics work in later generations.

 

5th generation also decided to change how the effect of wish was determined by the casters maximum health, this is an difference which I do not strongly support as this is metagame changing. It is the change from gen 3 to 4 that I like to have implemented because in my view, it was made more as a realization of how the broken move could be taken advantage of which was never supposed to be.

 

 

I will put an example of how this can make a significant difference in the meta in this spoiler. A difference that I believe was never meant to be there and which was why this was changed already in gen4.

 

[spoiler]

In competitive play, we sometimes do what we call a sacrifice. Basically this is to switch into a pokemon that is meant to die so that we can get a free switch into a pokemon that is now available to take out the opponent without taking damage or status from him in the switch.

 

An example could be this;

 

Alakazam(100) vs Gengar(33)

Gengar(33) is taken back, Umbreon(3) comes in

Alakazam(100) used Psychic Umbreon(3) is immune

 

Alakazam(100) returns, Machamp(100) is sent out

Umbreon(3) used wish

 

Umbreon(3) returns Forretress(2) is sent out

Machamp(100) used rock slide

Forretress faints

Umbreon(3) is sent out

Wish heals Umbreon to 53% (here lays the error. This should not have happened) Machamp user would never need here in a normal situation need to guess his next move, it is clear he should rockslide a Umbreon at 3% as he risk Gengar to come in at 33% if he go for cross chop, or eq. Now however:

 

Machamp(100) used rockslide

Umbreon(31) used wish

 

Umbreon can take a 2nd Rockslide and heal up while confuse raying or something. Or Umbreon can predict the Cross chop and go into Gengar who would now heal up instead.

 

[/spoiler]

 

 

How the move works;

 

[spoiler]

Effect Generation III

The turn Wish is used, the user will make a wish. At the end of the next turn, the Pokémon in the user's current position will be healed by half its own maximum HP.

Wish can still be used even if the user's HP is full, but will do nothing if the Pokémon that should be healed has full HP.

Generation IV

While the effects of Wish have stayed the same, the order in which events happen in a given turn have changed, and Wish now kicks in before a Pokémon switches in for a Pokémon knocked out in that turn, meaning Wish can be wasted in such a situation.[/spoiler]

 

TL;DR Please implement 4th gen effect of wish in this MMO

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Please change the title to better reflect the suggestion.

I can not reflect it any better than it currently is.

 

Wish is broken(ish) do reflect how the wish in gen3 had an unintended effect which later on in gen4 was fixed just like struggle also had an unintended bug in gen3 which could cause a internal battle if combined with leftovers.

 

Although the result of the bug here is not an eternal battle, it is an unwanted result which I do believe makes it worthy of naming the subject broken(ish)

 

 

That is unless you want me to name it;

 

"Need to change Wish because it has flaws that was not meant to be"

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I disagree.

 

This title seems to just ask for a random move to be updated to work out as it does in later generation which is what I suggest. But it fails to indicate my reasoning to do so and also reflect the suggestion.

 

Feel free to just decline as an eventually because the way this thread is worded now, it seems like there is no haste at all with doing this...

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I disagree.

 

This title seems to just ask for a random move to be updated to work out as it does in later generation which is what I suggest. But it fails to indicate my reasoning to do so.

 

Feel free to just decline as an eventually because the way this thread is worded now, it seems like there is no haste at all with doing this...

The reasoning does not have to be in the title the reasoning should be in the post

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  • 2 weeks later...

Are you suggesting that you should not be able to sacrifice a pokemon to receive a wish? I think that is pretty meta changing, personally. It makes wish a lot worse and might make its use less safe overall. Wish works in a few different ways in gen 3, like status damage occurring before wish does. It's not broken, it's just different. I see no actual need to change the mechanics of wish. All this suggestion does is nerf it, and I don't think it's broken to the point of being op. That is, provided I have understood correctly.

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That is what I am suggesting and I can easily think of a few situations where this indeed have an unwanted effect on the outcome of a battle but what does it matter.

 

By renaming the thread they have shown their stand at this idea. And if you disagree I can only hope people see it as you rather than as me, the flaws in this mechanic is stupid and it works as both as wish do in later generations as well as a weakened Lunar dance.

 

Lunar dance was a move that healed hp and status fully for a damaged pokemon, with wish, you can have a tank worn down to the point where 1 more hit would kill it (as someone was trying to break it down and lost 1 of their 2-3 special sweepers in the process while it barely lived only for it to come in and get this wish so that it doesn't die afterall. This is something which do not show skill of the trainer who just revived his chance of winning but just the flaw of the move mechanics

 

 

A move should not hit in after a pokemon faints and you switched to the new pokemon, wish should come in the priority between. Having it this way would be as meaningless as having extreme speed going before endure.

 

 

Also since people keep questioning what the problem is with this title and obviously think a title should only explain what the thread is about

 

open spoiler to see a story with no other relation than the fact the title sucked

 

[spoiler]

The discovery of Nitrous Oxide's benefit in surgeries.

 

Back in 1772 a man named Joseph Priestley discovered the gas and he would later on publish his book "Experiments and Observations on Different Kinds of Air"  So I ask you, out from this title, even now that you know what this is good for, do you think the people in this profession would take such a book up to read and learn? Are you perhaps confused with what I mean by this? Maybe I am been diffuse here by purpose.

 

You see, back at this time, Surgery was a difficult procedure and there were no safe way to put a patient into coma while doing the surgery so they would rely on a pair of strong determined brutes to hold the patient still while doing the surgery or just knock the patient out which could lead to other injuries such as brain damage. Meanwhile Joseph Priestley were experimenting with gasses and he found Nitrous Oxide to not only make him happy, but also more unaware of pain in this state, and this was something he quickly saw an use for. He went straight to work to send out this knowledge and he did make a book about the subject describing how this could be used in help of surgery to put the patient in a state where they would not mind the pain of this as much and lay still through it without the suffering which in itself can cause death when severe enough. Unfortunately however, Joseph Priestley did name this book what it was, "Experiments and Observations on Different Kinds of Air", which in itself is nothing wrong with. I mean, it is what the book was about. Just like this thread is about changing wish from gen3 to gen4. In this book, it was also perfectly explained how this could be used as a tool in surgery. But only people who would find out is those who read the book. I mean, even back then alot of books were published and you could hardly blame a man for not reading all books that were ever to be given out just in case they had something to offer to help him improve in his field, we don't even do that today.

 

What professionals do however, is to look for books that applies to their field. And they try find those who seems to be of greater importance to them. To simplify what I mean with this, a doctor would read about medicine, a businessman would read about marketing and business, a Historian would read about history. A coach would read about training philosophy.

 

So who would read the Experiments and observations of different kind of Air in a time where this was in no use in medicine? My best guess would be the people working with chemistry and maybe some scientists. Doctors would rather read about literature meant to how the human body work and what how different things affect that. That is also why it took 20 years from someone discovered the effect here before someone even started experimenting with its use, and closer to 40 before it was in actually use.

[/spoiler]

 

 

However, that been said, it is clear that in this case, people do either not care, or is against the suggestion so they can keep to the third generation mechanic

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This is an insanity that 3rd generation fighters were forced to deal with. It doesn't make it 1 that mmo should deal with and 1 might as well advocate for sandstorm damage to kick in after a new Pokemon comes in for the fainted one.

This was a mechanic that allows a 1 hp endure/sub Pokemon that take damage from sandstorm which took out one Pokemon and would have swept without the sandstorm ttar just made up. With working mechanics this Pokemon has only 1 move left to do if the owner don't got anything to fix sandatream weather with. Instead it get healed from 1 hp and up to 1/2 hp. And do you know what my mainconcern with this is? If the opponent lost his counter to this Pokemon, it won't matter HOW good he predict his opponent and play. The mechanic make it impossible to stop this play.

All of you are advocating for a mechanic which take out the "skill" portion out of the game. 3 crits in row carry more skill than use the flaw in this skill. This is also something that lead them to change the mechanic from gen 3 to gen 4. They saw the flaw in the mechanic and how it couldn't be any answer to stop this.

But please, keep advocating for this. Tell me how this just make up for a different meta and is just fine. Keep telling me how wish never was meant to be just wish but also a nerfed lunar dance in gen3.

That is the result with this mechanic. There is no counter for this move. It will heal something wether the user predict good or bad. If I see what is coming in and kill it before wish comes to play. It takes him no skills at all to go and get the healing advantage after all.

But ofc, this is how it was meant to be. Oh he predicted my wish plan? Fine I just nerflunardance this instead.

It is fine if you guys want to rather keep a broken move in the game. But please call the broken spade what it is. A broken spade.

But it has been obviously clear that this broken move is something the players want to keep so let the majority of indifference combined with a few inputs on how it is just fine with its broken mechanic rule here.

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-1 it sounds to me like you dont want wish to heal other pokemon (its early for me still i could have misunderstood what you meant) To me the only real reason to use a wish user is to heal ur teammates. I like this option.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't have an extremely solid grip on the 4th gen mechanics of Wish, but I think his problem is that Wish is currently way too easy to use. Even if your wish user dies, you still get a free heal on other teammates. The way Wish is presumably supposed to be used (in 4th gen) is through wish-passing. This way, you'd have to put a little effort into healing your teammates. Doesn't mean you can't still do it, though.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't have an extremely solid grip on the 4th gen mechanics of Wish, but I think his problem is that Wish is currently way too easy to use. Even if your wish user dies, you still get a free heal on other teammates. The way Wish is presumably supposed to be used (in 4th gen) is through wish-passing. This way, you'd have to put a little effort into healing your teammates. Doesn't mean you can't still do it, though.

Meh even if this is correct i still dont support. If you want to sac ur wisher to get a free heal on someone else then that should be an option IMO especially since that is an option in gen 3. When we get our gen 4 pokes, gen 4 mechanics then it can change. 

 

How it should be:

 

Turn 1

Wish was used

 

Turn 2

Pokemon make their moves or switch out.

Wish kicks in

Trainer choose new pokemon

 

But according to this it sounds to me that he doesnt want wish to be able to be passed at all. If wish kicked in then the trainer chooses the new poke then its impossible to pass a wish. The same prolly could be said for BP. If this was the way gen 4 works then wish is practically useless. But idt it is.

 

I could still be wrong on the intentions of OP bc it looks to me that the only diff. btwn gen 3 and 4 wish is that you dont pass a wish if the poke thats active at the end of the second turn dies due to the opponents attack. Thus giving up the ability to sac a weak poke in return for a free heal on anther, which seems to be the OPs main problem. And like i said thats fine when we get 4th gen, but i dont agree with it for pokemmo atm.

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Meh even if this is correct i still dont support. If you want to sac ur wisher to get a free heal on someone else then that should be an option IMO especially since that is an option in gen 3. When we get our gen 4 pokes, gen 4 mechanics then it can change. 

 

How it should be:

 

Turn 1

Wish was used

 

Turn 2

Pokemon make their moves or switch out.

Wish kicks in

Trainer choose new pokemon

 

But according to this it sounds to me that he doesnt want wish to be able to be passed at all. If wish kicked in then the trainer chooses the new poke then its impossible to pass a wish. The same prolly could be said for BP. If this was the way gen 4 works then wish is practically useless. But idt it is.

 

I could still be wrong on the intentions of OP bc it looks to me that the only diff. btwn gen 3 and 4 wish is that you dont pass a wish if the poke thats active at the end of the second turn dies due to the opponents attack. Thus giving up the ability to sac a weak poke in return for a free heal on anther, which seems to be the OPs main problem. And like i said thats fine when we get 4th gen, but i dont agree with it for pokemmo atm.

When viewed in the context of the entire OP, it's clear he meant for the "How it should be" to look like this:

 

Turn 1

Wish was used

 

Turn 2

Pokemon make their moves or switch out (Notice that baton pass would count as this stage)

wish kicks in

trainer chooses new pokemon if his previous pokemon fainted

 

As for the rest, we simply differ in opinions here, so I'll leave it at that. Personally, I have no problem with gen 4 mechanics being implemented where gen 3 mechanics aren't optimal. 

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When viewed in the context of the entire OP, it's clear he meant for the "How it should be" to look like this:

 

Turn 1

Wish was used

 

Turn 2

Pokemon make their moves or switch out (Notice that baton pass would count as this stage)

wish kicks in

trainer chooses new pokemon if his previous pokemon fainted

 

As for the rest, we simply differ in opinions here, so I'll leave it at that. Personally, I have no problem with gen 4 mechanics being implemented where gen 3 mechanics aren't optimal. 

Okay i gotchya. And yea differ opinion. Which gen had the best wish mechanic is completely subjective. If the mechanic was clearly 100% better no doubt about it then yea implement it. But thats just not the case here.

 

You would be perfectly able to pass wish with or without baton pass in 4th gen mechanics.

 

That is as long as the pokemon LIVE to receive the wish, not if 1 pokemon is sacked for another to receive the heal.

Yea you should change OP to look a little more like sloopy's version. I thought you wanted wish to be activated b4 you make the first switch. Which would make no since to me.

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Ok i understand the suggestion and will try to explain it. What volpi suggests:

 

Umbreon uses wish and switchs out

Opponent sents low hp snorlax/whatever

Player predicted this and faints the pokemon

Wish "kicks in" healing no one(since the intended target died)

Opponent sents next pokemon

 

How it is:

Umbreon uses wish and switchs out

Opponent sents low hp poke

Player predicted and faints the pokemon

Opponent sents next poke

Wish kicks in.

 

Using wish like this requires 0 skill, it doesnt encourage good predictions at all..

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Ok i understand the suggestion and will try to explain it. What volpi suggests:

 

Umbreon uses wish and switchs out

Opponent sents low hp snorlax/whatever

Player predicted this and faints the pokemon

Wish "kicks in" healing no one(since the intended target died)

Opponent sents next pokemon

 

How it is:

Umbreon uses wish and switchs out

Opponent sents low hp poke

Player predicted and faints the pokemon

Opponent sents next poke

Wish kicks in.

Using wish like this requires 0 skill, it doesnt encourage good predictions at all..

I still dont see the problem. I mean sacing low hp pokes for a free wish isnt much diff than sacing low hp pokes for a free switch. Ur sacing a poke, thats a poke that may have been able to be saved by a wish used against a diff poke but you chose to sac him so another may live. Its called strategy, and while i would agree to use some mechanics from use later gen pokemon games I think that until Pokemmo gets those later gens implemented into the game we should try to be conservative when it comes to doing that kind of thing, and idt that the sac-wish strategy is worth doing that for.

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  • 1 year later...
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