Masters Finale Series (50s Singles) [January 17]

[Alphatron]

Please keep the argumental posts regarding bans out of this thread. We do not control these things, and never have. We leave it up to you, the community to determine bans.
 
If you would like to make a complaint or suggestion on the topic, speak to those in charge of the tier lists directly.

If by community you mean a very small group of people that thought it was a good idea and the 2 people who run the tier list.

[demirs]

If by community you mean a very small group of people that thought it was a good idea and the 2 people who run the tier list.

A beautiful and successful comment..

[Alphatron]

A beautiful and successful comment..

Im not saying it's wrong, but Im being honest. If it were up to the community as in put to a vote. Curse wouldnt have been banned. Personally I like having that extra move. I can pass boost to it and defense curl isnt banned so essentially you can create the same effect with a little effort and not lose any speed on top of it. 

[Senile]

Im not saying it's wrong, but Im being honest. If it were up to the community as in put to a vote. Curse wouldnt have been banned. Personally I like having that extra move. I can pass boost to it and defense curl isnt banned so essentially you can create the same effect with a little effort and not lose any speed on top of it. 

Votes are the single worst way to make tiering decisions. If you want an example of this, the Mega Gengar thread on Smogon for 6th gen; There was a poll on if it should be banned or not, and most people voted for it to not be banned. However, the thread was full of great pro-banning arguments, and the anti-ban side was very weak in their arguments, with the same disproven argument being repeated over and over. In the end, however, M.Gengar was still banned, due to how blatantly overpowering it was.

Not losing any speed is hardly relevant, considering basically everything outspeeds Snorlax to begin with. (Hell, that's part of why Curse is so good on him, the lowered speed is irrelevant); Defense Curl's lack of offensive boost means that Defense Curl Lax can't wall out as many things as it could with Curse, because his nerfed offenses makes him easier to deal with as it limits what he can actually beat.

[ThinkNice]

Votes are the single worst way to make tiering decisions. If you want an example of this, the Mega Gengar thread on Smogon for 6th gen; There was a poll on if it should be banned or not, and most people voted for it to not be banned. However, the thread was full of great pro-banning arguments, and the anti-ban side was very weak in their arguments, with the same disproven argument being repeated over and over. In the end, however, M.Gengar was still banned, due to how blatantly overpowering it was.

Not losing any speed is hardly relevant, considering basically everything outspeeds Snorlax to begin with. (Hell, that's part of why Curse is so good on him, the lowered speed is irrelevant); Defense Curl's lack of offensive boost means that Defense Curl Lax can't wall out as many things as it could with Curse, because his nerfed offenses makes him easier to deal with as it limits what he can actually beat.

You forgot Defense Curl boosts Snorlax's Rollout, so it does definetely increase his offenses aswell duh..

[Alphatron]

Votes are the single worst way to make tiering decisions. If you want an example of this, the Mega Gengar thread on Smogon for 6th gen; There was a poll on if it should be banned or not, and most people voted for it to not be banned. However, the thread was full of great pro-banning arguments, and the anti-ban side was very weak in their arguments, with the same disproven argument being repeated over and over. In the end, however, M.Gengar was still banned, due to how blatantly overpowering it was.

 

Again, I wasnt saying its wrong, nor do I think that voting would be effective seeing as everyone running it is a biased vote. But calling it a "community decision" when it was more of a Barrage/ThinkNice decision was my issue w/ ShiChan's statement.  If you look at my tourney thread I implemented the rule into Monday Night Hotel Fights before any official did. Im all for trying it out and with as incomplete as our meta is, it makes sense. 

Not losing any speed is hardly relevant, considering basically everything outspeeds Snorlax to begin with. (Hell, that's part of why Curse is so good on him, the lowered speed is irrelevant); Defense Curl's lack of offensive boost means that Defense Curl Lax can't wall out as many things as it could with Curse, because his nerfed offenses makes him easier to deal with as it limits what he can actually beat.

 

My point was you can pass the same effects as curse to Snorlax. But thanks for being so thorough in your explanation. 

[EricTheGreat]

If by community you mean a very small group of people that thought it was a good idea and the 2 people who run the tier list.

this is accurate

[ThinkNice]

 

Votes are the single worst way to make tiering decisions. If you want an example of this, the Mega Gengar thread on Smogon for 6th gen; There was a poll on if it should be banned or not, and most people voted for it to not be banned. However, the thread was full of great pro-banning arguments, and the anti-ban side was very weak in their arguments, with the same disproven argument being repeated over and over. In the end, however, M.Gengar was still banned, due to how blatantly overpowering it was.

 

Again, I wasnt saying its wrong, nor do I think that voting would be effective seeing as everyone running it is a biased vote. But calling it a "community decision" when it was more of a Barrage/ThinkNice decision was my issue w/ ShiChan's statement.  If you look at my tourney thread I implemented the rule into Monday Night Hotel Fights before any official did. Im all for trying it out and with as incomplete as our meta is, it makes sense. 

Not losing any speed is hardly relevant, considering basically everything outspeeds Snorlax to begin with. (Hell, that's part of why Curse is so good on him, the lowered speed is irrelevant); Defense Curl's lack of offensive boost means that Defense Curl Lax can't wall out as many things as it could with Curse, because his nerfed offenses makes him easier to deal with as it limits what he can actually beat.

 

My point was you can pass the same effects as curse to Snorlax. But thanks for being so thorough in your explanation. 

 

I shall be honest here and say I agree with you. ShinyChansey's statement is wrong. It is not completely a community decision. First of all, we try to be as unbiased as possible. I usually don't look at something and think 'ban' or 'don't ban'. I break down the possible counters, factor in variables like potential team builds and maybe abuse of certain team mates etc. Even if something looks overpowered I will look at things that makes it less so. Ten you always have to consider 'is this unhealthy for the metagame?'. This is a very hard question to answer, especially because bias can be a killer here. In a sense you got to you know yourself well when looking at a complicated ban like this one.

 

But like I said, Senile did give the chance for people to defend Curselax. We did not discuss it only between ourselves and then were like 'yep banning it fuck batlax'. Like I said when something like this comes up I'm not pro-ban or anti-ban, so at the start I didn't really have an opinion on the matter. But yeah most anti-ban 'arguments' I saw were just people who were angry for even CONSIDERING SUCH A HORRIBLE SUGGESTION. In fact, the discussion itself didn't really have much good discussion in it (IMO). The community does decide how it reacts, and if all we are getting are hateful responses it isn't exactly helping the subject. I think I only saw like... two or three constructed arguments as too why Curselax shouldn't be banned. (I don't factor in cody's 100 posts which were all saying basicaly the same) and the rest was just hate or discussion about the people in charge of the tiers.

 

Again, we look at good arguments. Some of them did have a good point, but in the end we have to ask ourselves does this outweigh the pressure Curselax puts on the meta? That's why I tried to describe as well as possible (while keeping it short enough so people would actually read it) as to why we deemed Curselax ban worthy. (Also a lot of people were focusing on the wrong points as to why is should be banned or not).

 

Lastly, I would say community votes or community decisions. Won't work with things like this. Yes we did once put Espeon back in UU with a vote, but this was still early on when we didn't have much experience in tiering. Some people don't even understand what an Uber is, in the wobbu thread we saw countless of posts with 'snorlax is not uber idiot I can beat it by doing this and this', they are missing the point. We are always asking for the feedback of the community, just like when we switched to the tier1 and tier2 system. We didn't just do it, we made a thread about it and asked for opinions. Yes the community doesn't ultimately decide, but it can have an impact on the decision and is by no means neglected.

 

I feel like a fucking staff member trying to explain himself

[SirGaryOak]

I feel like a fucking staff member trying to explain himself

Maybe this is why people is hating on you atm?

[spoiler]

Pls dont ban

[spoiler]hue[/spoiler]

[/spoiler]

 

Going back to topic I think that you ShiChan should be open to keep/remove the ban of using curse on snorlax until a day or two before the tournament since there still seems to be some slight disagreement with the decision and maybe someone will do some good points or idk soon which would change snorlax's current state. Usually when you post the list of banned Pokemon in the OP you don't change it even if there have been made changes in the tier list afterwards (between post of OP and battling day). But in this case I really think you should be open to a change for the ban of using curse on snorlax. ;)

 

I found it fun to battle without facing curselax but atm I'm not sure what side to stand on, since it's (IMO) on the edge and still is too new for me to decide for a decision on what I think about the use of curse on snorlax. So unfortunately I'm not going to give my opinion on this yet neither any suggestions.

[timwaps]

If by community you mean a very small group of people that thought it was a good idea and the 2 people who run the tier list.

You're right dude, that is the reaility of this game.

[Sacky]

i think DD tyranitas are more overpower in this meta than curselax, ban curselax is seriously a bad desicion.

 

i dont understand how a curselax is a meta-breaker, is a potencial meta-breaker just like any pokemon whit a buff move like calm mind or bulk up, but...isnt that a part of the strategy in pokemon in first place?

 

i like to know when we can vote for banning shinychansey for tournaments organization, sorry dude, but since u r in charge the things are going just bad

 

[Archinix]

i like to know when we can vote for banning shinychansey for tournaments organization, sorry dude, but since u r in charge the things are going just bad

Ban your only hope at getting official tournaments, hmm.

[Sacky]

Ban your only hope at getting official tournaments, hmm.

 when u and emlee are in charge the tournaments havent any trouble....but since that uu tournament (thebloo clause xd) we can just count easily 3 tournaments whit problems, and not all for the players side

[Archinix]

 when u and emlee are in charge the tournaments havent any trouble

Thanks, I'm sure I speak for both of us when we did the best we could when hosting.

 

 but since that uu tournament (thebloo clause xd) we can just count easily 3 tournaments whit problems, and not all for the players side

That may be the case, but think. Who else is hosting Tournaments? For Masters Jindu and Xela are because Cipher/myself had planned it for Cipher Doubles/Archi 50s/ShiChan 100s and once they got rid of us you could say, they just filled the spots. ShiChan is still the "host" of it. So think, if you got rid of ShiChan, you wouldn't have official tournaments, and probably no refs if you even got a host.

[Sacky]

i dont beliave the "less bad" choice be a really a choice...i think u can choice new people or maybe the old hosters can come back...i dont know how u run the stuffs, but i think the comp comunity deserve a better way to make the things

but i stop the off-topic right now, i think the ban of curselax is a priority right now

[Senile]

i think DD tyranitas are more overpower in this meta than curselax, ban curselax is seriously a bad desicion.

 

i dont understand how a curselax is a meta-breaker, is a potencial meta-breaker just like any pokemon whit a buff move like calm mind or bulk up, but...isnt that a part of the strategy in pokemon in first place?

 

i like to know when we can vote for banning shinychansey for tournaments organization, sorry dude, but since u r in charge the things are going just bad

 

>Implying it matters who's hosting it

Curselax would have been banned regardless of who was hosting it. If you have issues with the ban, complain about it elsewhere. (Not that complaining about it will get you very far, but you know)

[JSTUD]

Let's all forget about the tierlist "dilemma" and focus our energy on prepping our teams for the Master tournies.

[Sacky]

>Implying it matters who's hosting it

Curselax would have been banned regardless of who was hosting it. If you have issues with the ban, complain about it elsewhere. (Not that complaining about it will get you very far, but you know)

 

if u see, my "complaining" about the host was make before than my opinion in the ban of curselax....i dont want to make a bible in every post, just say its a bad desicion.....i mean...the use of curselax is banned...but we can still run DD tyranitars...something is wrong in here

[timwaps]

if u see, my "complaining" about the host was make before than my opinion in the ban of curselax....i dont want to make a bible in every post, just say its a bad desicion.....i mean...the use of curselax is banned...but we can still run DD tyranitars...something is wrong in here

The wrong thing here is Shinychansey and the alleged "community"

[ShinyChansey]

I would like to make a formal post regarding the problems brought up in this thread.

 

To start off with, we will speak of the ban of Curse by Snorlax. Bans for official events have always been determined by the community (excluding bugged moved, items, ect). We will not be changing that now even if our opinions differ. Like the community, many staff members have mixed feelings on the topic but the decision has been made. If you have a problem with the ban, we are not the ones to come to with your complaints/suggestions. The ones you should be going to are those in control of the ban lists. Since we have been going with the ban lists determined by the community for over a year, it would make no sense to ignore a ruling now. If the ban is lifted, it will be lifted in official events as well.

 

Another topic I would like to bring up would be me being "in charge of events". I want to clear this up for all who have it in their head that I am "in charge". No single staff member is in charge of events. Just because you see me running many events does not make me a leader. It simply means I enjoy giving the community something to play for. I am not responsible for the lack of events and no one person is. However since I do host many events, of course there will be more calls that some would see as unfair. To that topic, I would like the clarify on the fact that no decisions are made by me alone. When making a call, I will moreso get the opinion from the match's referee then every other staff member's opinion as well. In every case majority rules. I'm not out to get you guys. I'm open to admitting mistakes and in the past I've even apologized personally to those I have affected. I'm just here to give you events (among my other duties), something fun to do at the end of the week.

 

I hope that can clear some things up for you all. No one likes conflict. Now let's prepare for Masters, it's going to be a great event!

[Archinix]

Another topic I would like to bring up would be me being "in charge of events". I want to clear this up for all who have it in their head that I am "in charge". No single staff member is in charge of events. Just because you see me running many events does not make me a leader.

I bet you had to say this to avoid getting in trouble.
 

It simply means I enjoy giving the community something to play for. I am not responsible for the lack of events and no one person is.

Well we haven't really had any official tournaments since the start of November to the end of November, what happened in that time period? You're right, you're not responsible for it and no one is, but someone is responsible for something to do with it, y'know?
 

To that topic, I would like the clarify on the fact that no decisions are made by me alone.

Correct, they aren't made alone, but half the time are made by refs who do not care, or even pay attention to the event at hand. Might as well be made by you, atleast we'd get someone to make a call who payed attention to what happened.

 

In every case majority rules. I'm not out to get you guys

Majority of refs, as I said don't pay attention. So basically, a blind man is driving a truck, how will that end up, ya think?

 

I'm open to admitting mistakes and in the past I've even apologized personally to those I have affected.

The one time you did, you got treated like an ass, feel bad for that.

 

I'm just here to give you events (among my other duties), something fun to do at the end of the week.

Which you can't even do, cause the refs who aren't paying attention won't even help you out. Funny when someone thought and stated = it was because I was a >insert possible offensive term here<

 

As I stated before, the competitive scene is going to die out soon enough, we can't wait forever for the events. 

I hope that can clear some things up for you all. No one likes conflict. Now let's prepare for Masters, it's going to be a great event!

That's Hisagi's signature exclamation mark >.>

[JeanMarc]

Seriously, I have nothing against the ban of Curse on Snorlax, after reading the thread, I personally am for banning curselax, but I think it lacks of continuity to ban it for the masters tournament. Dragonite and Tyrannitar were banned because it wasn't in the same meta that the one in which the players won their masters invite with, removing Curselax is a major change to the meta and doesn't make sense if you want to follow that idea. I still think that banning Curselax is a good idea, but starting it in the masters tournament is a bad idea IMO.

[Senile]

Seriously, I have nothing against the ban of Curse on Snorlax, after reading the thread, I personally am for banning curselax, but I think it lacks of continuity to ban it for the masters tournament. Dragonite and Tyrannitar were banned because it wasn't in the same meta that the one in which the players won their masters invite with, removing Curselax is a major change to the meta and doesn't make sense if you want to follow that idea. I still think that banning Curselax is a good idea, but starting it in the masters tournament is a bad idea IMO.

Without Tyranitar/Dnite, Curselax is even MORE overpowering than it is in the current meta. It makes perfect sense to ban it here.

Besides that, things such as Moonlight Umbreon and Hariyama are being allowed, so it's not like the intent is to make a perfect replica of how the metagame was before flat battles, just removing two major additions not everyone might like.

[timwaps]

 

 

If you have a problem with the ban, we are not the ones to come to with your complaints/suggestions. The ones you should be going to are those in control of the ban lists. Since we have been going with the ban lists determined by the community for over a year, it would make no sense to ignore a ruling now. If the ban is lifted, it will be lifted in official events as well.

 

 

Community =  those in control of the ban lists.

 

Its ok, that was a mistake and i think u know it. Now please make a real ban list based on the community oppinion.

[fredrichnietze]

I would like to make a formal post regarding the problems brought up in this thread.

 

To start off with, we will speak of the ban of Curse by Snorlax. Bans for official events have always been determined by the community (excluding bugged moved, items, ect). We will not be changing that now even if our opinions differ. Like the community, many staff members have mixed feelings on the topic but the decision has been made. If you have a problem with the ban, we are not the ones to come to with your complaints/suggestions. The ones you should be going to are those in control of the ban lists. Since we have been going with the ban lists determined by the community for over a year, it would make no sense to ignore a ruling now. If the ban is lifted, it will be lifted in official events as well.

 

Another topic I would like to bring up would be me being "in charge of events". I want to clear this up for all who have it in their head that I am "in charge". No single staff member is in charge of events. Just because you see me running many events does not make me a leader. It simply means I enjoy giving the community something to play for. I am not responsible for the lack of events and no one person is. However since I do host many events, of course there will be more calls that some would see as unfair. To that topic, I would like the clarify on the fact that no decisions are made by me alone. When making a call, I will moreso get the opinion from the match's referee then every other staff member's opinion as well. In every case majority rules. I'm not out to get you guys. I'm open to admitting mistakes and in the past I've even apologized personally to those I have affected. I'm just here to give you events (among my other duties), something fun to do at the end of the week.

 

I hope that can clear some things up for you all. No one likes conflict. Now let's prepare for Masters, it's going to be a great event!

quick question, does this mean the [unofficial] tier list are really official? because this + the other tier list being locked/trashed seems to me as official support of that thread as THE thread's for pokemmo.