July-2022 Movement Discussion

[Munya]

Discussion coming early this month, lots of changes via usage, and some changes that may happen because of usage changes as well.  End of the season so 4.36% usage to go either way.

 

Moving DOWN to UU from OU:

Torkoal

 

Moving UP to UU from NU:

Absol

Zoroark

 

Quickbanned to BL2 from NU due to gaining their Hidden abilities:

Feraligatr - With Sheer Force, most of Feraligatr's viable moves have become significantly more powerful, in addition to negating recoil from Life Orb. Already an extremely scary sweeper without it, its Hidden Ability pushes Feraligatr over the edge. It will be monitored closely in UU as well.

 

Serperior - With Contrary in combination with Leaf Storm to combine a powerful move with a +2 special attack boost, a great speed stat, and good bulk, Serperior can very easily snowball. It has been determined that it's too much for NeverUsed to handle, and the Tier Council will keep an eye on it in UU too. 

 

 

 

Discuss away, tell us what we have done wrong/right, your opinions on all of them, as well as the other hidden ability mons we have gained.

[Zymogen]

Was just about to ask to discuss fera and serp, good to see they’ve already been dealt with

[Imperial]

Chlorophyll Venusaur will definitely need to be looked into if Torkoal drops down to UU, especially once it's able to set up with Growth

Edited Friday at 09:11 AM by Imperial

[TohnR]

Why ain't Serp already in OU ?
The mon will clearly be a top tier there, and could even be argued to be ban worthy (I can only see 2 viable counters in Venu and Blissey, we are missing Heatran tbh)

 

Also sad moment for my guy Zoroark who was an absolute beast in UU for the past 2 seasons, and finally rizes the moment it is the worst in the metagame, with Roost on Empoleon and Machamp in EVERY SINGLE team 😢 Magneton is the one that should've rose this season ... Ever usage

Edited Friday at 10:21 AM by TohnR

[DarylDixon]

lets goo speed boost blaziken in NU

[suigin]

3 hours ago, TohnR said:

The mon will clearly be a top tier there, and could even be argued to be ban worthy (I can only see 2 viable counters in Venu and Blissey, we are missing Heatran tbh)

Serp's issue is that it cannot handle every check you throw at it. You don't really need Heatran in the meta for it.

It has as much Special Attack as Oddish without boosts so the first Leaf Storm won't do much.

You need HP Fire for Scizor/Ferrothorn, Dragon Pulse for Dnite, Hydreigon and Salamence, Leech Seed+Sub for Blissey/Chansey and now the new Weezing and you also need HP Rock for Volcarona.

It's not bad but on paper it doesn't seem that much stronger than any other good late game sweeper.

[Zymogen]

Has there been any discussion on contrary’s evasion boost from defog? Was it a conscious decision to keep it?

[OrangeManiac]

I think Serp should be banned from UU immediately. Sure, it has some technical counters like Crobat and Mandibuzz but it would centralize an already messed up metagame to a ridiculous extent. Contrary Serp has been OU in Gen 6 and Gen 7, metas with incredibly high power level and it was always limited to its full potential by Chansey/Blissey, yet still was incredibly strong. I think Serp needs those special blob in the tiers to not run over things with minimal effort, or have people dedicate their full teams to make sure this thing just doesn't run them over. I'd argue it's easily Offensive Ubers in UU (sweeps a significant portion of the metagame with little to no effort) but even if that definition was stretched to the max, there is no way you could argue this thing wouldn't be at least unhealthy for teambuilding. 

[Munya]

1 hour ago, Zymogen said:

Has there been any discussion on contrary’s evasion boost from defog? Was it a conscious decision to keep it?

There was not, how do later games handle it, not at home to check

[Bertolfoso]

28 minutes ago, Munya said:

There was not, how do later games handle it, not at home to check

They do not, and imo it's how it should be it's all in your opponent's control

[PoseidonWrath]

Are we all forgetting how Weezing his HA is amazing in OU? 

lts really strong vs Conkeldurr, Scizor, Breloom, Mienshao removing their abillity.

its like a better version of Cofa since with mummy u gotta have to touch cofa first and it Weezing doesnt get easily pursuit trapped by Tyranitar

 

 

[Umbramol]

Since the new additions are to UU. I suggest apart from keeping an eye to serperior and feraligatr to also having a look at sun. Which said sun is the reason that I remain skeptical about serperior being an offensive Uber. Chlorophyll Venusaur might prove a way more difficult beast to handle and it also checks serperior. Serperior while strong and being able to cripple checks like crobat seems on paper that it can be somewhat handled. But this is not a definitive opinion. The tough thing about it is that the tier is dead. So I urge people to help out in the testing process 

[Lvkee]

Don't think you guys will have to worry about Serperior or Venu in UU for much longer, pretty sure they'll go to OU via usage

Edited Friday at 04:54 PM by Lvkee

[Umbramol]

14 minutes ago, Lvkee said:

Don't think you guys will have to worry about Serperior or Venu in UU for much longer, pretty sure they'll go to OU via usage

I too think so. But I doubt in this game both are gonna rise in 1 month. People take some time to adapt. I think sun Pokemons will rise first. Then in the next 2-3 months, serperior and weezing are gonna follow.. that's what I believe

[Zymogen]

40 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

Since the new additions are to UU. I suggest apart from keeping an eye to serperior and feraligatr to also having a look at sun. Which said sun is the reason that I remain skeptical about serperior being an offensive Uber. Chlorophyll Venusaur might prove a way more difficult beast to handle and it also checks serperior. Serperior while strong and being able to cripple checks like crobat seems on paper that it can be somewhat handled. But this is not a definitive opinion. The tough thing about it is that the tier is dead. So I urge people to help out in the testing process 

Agree, Venu is a much bigger threat I think. Serp excels as a scarf sweeper which means that it requires a fair amount of prediction, as well as needing a turn to start doing real damage. Venu on the other hand is going to be a monster as it has even more speed and doesn't have the downside of being locked into one move, alongside a much better base spatk stat

 

But it's also a very valid point that they're unlikely to stay in UU regardless, as Luke said, so I guess we just have to watch and wait

Edited Friday at 05:18 PM by Zymogen

[Zymogen]

1 hour ago, Bertolfoso said:

it's all in your opponent's control

I disagree. Evasion boosts, by definition, take autonomy away from the opposing player. The advantage gained from this ability is wildly disproportionate to the risk of using defog, and the ability for the opponent to circumvent this advantage is completely at the mercy of RNG even if they possess the theoretical means i.e. a faster revenge killer or a priority user. Of course, there specific circumstances to which this doesn't apply, such as when using guaranteed hit moves like Aerial Ace; but in the grand scheme of things this is a microscopic caveat which doesn't really apply to the UU or OU metas.

 

My issue lies with the fact that the threat of an evasion boost is enough to completely change the course of a battle without even coming onto the field, because if your opponent doesn't have rapid spin, they are effectively forced to keep entry hazards otherwise they risk losing the game purely to RNG. I think this is a dynamic that requires proper consideration.

Edited Friday at 05:41 PM by Zymogen

[suigin]

On one hand I agree on the other hand it's nice to have something that can punish mindless defog use.

[Zymogen]

3 minutes ago, suigin said:

On one hand I agree on the other hand it's nice to have something that can punish mindless defog use.

What if it was paired with screens

[Quinn010]

i think evasion boost on defog is fine it reward players for switching in on defog 

Edited Friday at 08:25 PM by Quinn010

[suigin]

2 hours ago, Zymogen said:

What if it was paired with screens

That's the part that agrees

[Thenavarro]

Little is said about feraligart 

[Zymogen]

1 hour ago, Quinn010 said:

i think evasion boost on defog is fine it reward players for switching in on defog 

I just feel like it completely contradicts the evasion clause though personally, but maybe it's just me

[Quinn010]

3 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

I just feel like it completely contradicts the evasion clause though personally, but maybe it's just me

if you compare it to moves like double team or sand veil this can't be outplayed defog can. i mean its just my pov i understand if people disagree 

[OrangeManiac]

6 hours ago, Lvkee said:

Don't think you guys will have to worry about Serperior or Venu in UU for much longer, pretty sure they'll go to OU via usage

This is definitely true, however I somehow can't seem to understand why UU is getting dumpstered while we have to wait for things to go OU by usage. Can't we make Pokemon OU that are going to go OU by usage with almost full certainty? And if in some rare instance we are wrong, then I guess we can let those Pokemon to be tested if they fall below the OU usage. But it feels weird precedent what we're having that before things are going to OU (which depends on the time of release can take multiple months), they are slugged through UU testing while everyone who has played Pokemon for more than 12 ladder games realize there is no way in the universe these Pokemon aren't getting OU usage. Why is UU being treated this horribly?

[Munya]

Nothing has been decided yet, things may be banned to OU, but another thing we are discussing is using seasonal cutoff for the entirety of the next season to let things naturally rise faster, if they are going to.  There is a lot to digest and a lot of different opinions on how to handle it.