Machamp & Kings Rock

[Huargensy]

13 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

in this example you show 3 different coverage moves when machamp can only run 2. also a wallbreaker is meant to break walls. if you predict good with helmet chip forb dmg its managable to prevent machamp from sweeping. 

Sure, because we're not all forced to carry the same coverage, I'm just showing the damage it does with the right coverage.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Huargensy

[caioxlive13]

On 6/9/2022 at 12:45 PM, Zymogen said:

I disagree. Its stats are virtually identical to Conk’s, and it has the same ability and movesets. It would 100% be banned even if we tested it, so why waste time?

 

Machamp:

 

Conk:

 

Machamp is Slighty worse than conkeldurr. even if they attack are 10 point lower, and HP is 15, he has more Special Defense, allowing him to resist to Special Moves that usually is a problem to Conkeldurr.
 

128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 156-185 (73.5 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 129-152 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

in both calcs, i used infernape with 128 Sp. Atk, that are usually the amount of EVs invested on Mixed Sets, Naive, and for Conk/Machamp, i Maxed out HP EVs.

Both take a lot of damage, but conkeldurr will have less HP left, allowing him to be killed with another one, if they don't use Drain Punch(Use Stone Edge or Bulk Up , or something else, trying to predict a opponent switch). And i used Overheat as a example, however some Mixed sets use Flamethrower or Fire Blast. I will leave both calcs.

128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 109-129 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 133-156 (62.7 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 87-105 (44.1 - 53.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 107-126 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

We can see that players that use flamethrower infernape cannot guarraant the 2HKO on Machamp. If a mon "OU" have trouble against one machamp, i don't want to think the difficult to defeat one on UU.

[TohnR]

Why would you even argue pre-event, this meta is gonna last only a few days nobody cares honestly

[epicdavenport]

9 minutes ago, TohnR said:

Why would you even argue pre-event, this meta is gonna last only a few days nobody cares honestly

I really hope so.

[Zymogen]

22 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Machamp is Slighty worse than conkeldurr. even if they attack are 10 point lower, and HP is 15, he has more Special Defense, allowing him to resist to Special Moves that usually is a problem to Conkeldurr.
 

128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 156-185 (73.5 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 129-152 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

in both calcs, i used infernape with 128 Sp. Atk, that are usually the amount of EVs invested on Mixed Sets, Naive, and for Conk/Machamp, i Maxed out HP EVs.

Both take a lot of damage, but conkeldurr will have less HP left, allowing him to be killed with another one, if they don't use Drain Punch(Use Stone Edge or Bulk Up , or something else, trying to predict a opponent switch). And i used Overheat as a example, however some Mixed sets use Flamethrower or Fire Blast. I will leave both calcs.

128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 109-129 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 133-156 (62.7 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 87-105 (44.1 - 53.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 107-126 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

We can see that players that use flamethrower infernape cannot guarraant the 2HKO on Machamp. If a mon "OU" have trouble against one machamp, i don't want to think the difficult to defeat one on UU.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Zymogen

[Quinn010]

On 6/14/2022 at 10:30 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Machamp is Slighty worse than conkeldurr. even if they attack are 10 point lower, and HP is 15, he has more Special Defense, allowing him to resist to Special Moves that usually is a problem to Conkeldurr.
 

128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 156-185 (73.5 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 129-152 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

in both calcs, i used infernape with 128 Sp. Atk, that are usually the amount of EVs invested on Mixed Sets, Naive, and for Conk/Machamp, i Maxed out HP EVs.

Both take a lot of damage, but conkeldurr will have less HP left, allowing him to be killed with another one, if they don't use Drain Punch(Use Stone Edge or Bulk Up , or something else, trying to predict a opponent switch). And i used Overheat as a example, however some Mixed sets use Flamethrower or Fire Blast. I will leave both calcs.

128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 109-129 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 133-156 (62.7 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 87-105 (44.1 - 53.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
128 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 107-126 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

We can see that players that use flamethrower infernape cannot guarraant the 2HKO on Machamp. If a mon "OU" have trouble against one machamp, i don't want to think the difficult to defeat one on UU.

oml my guy show infernape calcs a true ledgend 

[Raichuforyou]

Why is time even being wasted on solutions like how Kings Rock interacts with multihit moves instead of just flat out banning the item? Just kind of curious on the balancing team's philosophy on handling some of these RNG-heavy items that would save a lot more time and headaches if they were just removed (I also talk of items like Quick Claw, Bright Powder, etc).

Has there ever been something outright said where the devs would not like to ban items? Those kind of bans are commonly done in showdown/smogon scenes, just curious why it isn't even entertained here.

[Bertolfoso]

6 hours ago, Raichuforyou said:

Why is time even being wasted on solutions like how Kings Rock interacts with multihit moves instead of just flat out banning the item? Just kind of curious on the balancing team's philosophy on handling some of these RNG-heavy items that would save a lot more time and headaches if they were just removed (I also talk of items like Quick Claw, Bright Powder, etc).

Has there ever been something outright said where the devs would not like to ban items? Those kind of bans are commonly done in showdown/smogon scenes, just curious why it isn't even entertained here.

It was banned, then introduced with this change. Dont ask me why

[suigin]

17 hours ago, Raichuforyou said:

Why is time even being wasted on solutions like how Kings Rock interacts with multihit moves instead of just flat out banning the item? Just kind of curious on the balancing team's philosophy on handling some of these RNG-heavy items that would save a lot more time and headaches if they were just removed (I also talk of items like Quick Claw, Bright Powder, etc).

Has there ever been something outright said where the devs would not like to ban items? Those kind of bans are commonly done in showdown/smogon scenes, just curious why it isn't even entertained here.

They have conflicting ideologies, they want balance, not to ban anything but also want to remain truthful to the games. It's a mess.

[Raichuforyou]

19 hours ago, suigin said:

They have conflicting ideologies, they want balance, not to ban anything but also want to remain truthful to the games. It's a mess.

There's just no way to balance these RNG items. I can understand doing things like taking away Garchomp's HA, preventing certain mons from learning certain moves like Draco Meteor Hydregion, etc.

I understand I am probably going to get Munya asking or pointing to winrates of these RNG items, but that isn't the point in an argument for banning them. They are all typically not proper for a healthy competitive environment where the better player typically wins.