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Machamp & Kings Rock


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Banned to BL2:

Machamp -

The addition of Drain Punch and Mach Punch to its learnset make it extremely similar to Conkeldurr. While not as powerful or as bulky on the physical side, Machamp now has the tools it needs to succeed in the upper tiers and to very quickly centralize the NeverUsed tier around itself. The Tier Council believes that this Pokemon has no place in NU.

 

Machamp will be monitored closely in the UnderUsed tier, and may be subject to a ban to the OverUsed tier in the future if it becomes an issue. 
 

 

 

Unbanned from all formats of official play:

King Rock & Razor Fang - With the upcoming changes these will no longer effect each individual strike of a multi-hit move basically removing its main purpose and will will be reintroducing it into competitive play.

 

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0 Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom: 40-48 (25.4 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Machamp stone edge + No Guard = No Miss..

this calculation is taking into account the most defensive machamp possible, and the most defensive rotom possible, even so it does considerable damage... We must also bear in mind that machamp will learn Drain Punch and will have the move to recover easily vs other pokemon, maybe rotom is not the best example, but yes, maybe it could be left a few weeks to test machamp in NU and depending on how the community adapts see if to remove it to UU or not.
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33 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Scyther getting access to CC is also pretty big

Scyther needs a lot of support to be useful with its 4x rocks weakness. It would also be best off scarfed otherwise it's frailty will make it one shot from the tiers common threats. Close combat doesn't seem like enough for it to replace some of the premier mons in the tier.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Essebinha said:
0 Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom: 40-48 (25.4 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Machamp stone edge + No Guard = No Miss..

this calculation is taking into account the most defensive machamp possible, and the most defensive rotom possible, even so it does considerable damage... We must also bear in mind that machamp will learn Drain Punch and will have the move to recover easily vs other pokemon, maybe rotom is not the best example, but yes, maybe it could be left a few weeks to test machamp in NU and depending on how the community adapts see if to remove it to UU or not.

nice 0atk machamp vs bold rotom calc super relevant lmao ( real calc  252+ Atk Guts Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 115-136 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Edited by Quinn010
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1 hour ago, Quinn010 said:

nice 0atk machamp vs bold rotom calc super relevant lmao ( real calc  252+ Atk Guts Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 115-136 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

yes, anyway rotom is not the best example, since it has Hex. Also, already in the past Lucario was given a chance in UU, a chance to P-z in UU (Y stayed in uu), to Blastoise Shell smash..., Maybe we should give machamp a chance, if he breaks the goal he goes up to UU, as was done in the past.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Essebinha said:

yes, anyway rotom is not the best example, since it has Hex. Also, already in the past Lucario was given a chance in UU, a chance to P-z in UU (Y stayed in uu), to Blastoise Shell smash..., Maybe we should give machamp a chance, if he breaks the goal he goes up to UU, as was done in the past.

Giving lucario a chance in uu was a mistake

Edited by Havsha
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I also believe this move was a bit too rash, I really don't think Machamp would be too much for NU with Mach and Drain punches. At least a short test period would suffice

I disagree. Its stats are virtually identical to Conk’s, and it has the same ability and movesets. It would 100% be banned even if we tested it, so why waste time?

 

Machamp:

c800f0e8fa59a8b34c545ed6ea7fc493.png

 

Conk:

9b113acc6625dfb21746d94506e558c9.png


 

Edited by Zymogen
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3 hours ago, Zymogen said:

I disagree. Its stats are virtually identical to Conk’s, and it has the same ability and movesets. It would 100% be banned even if we tested it, so why waste time?

 

Machamp:

c800f0e8fa59a8b34c545ed6ea7fc493.png

 

Conk:

9b113acc6625dfb21746d94506e558c9.png


 

I guess you're right, but Conk does have a bigger attack stat and superior physical bulk... Idk. Machamp didn't have tremendous usage in NU so I would at least want to give it a try. Im unsure how much meta has changed ever since I stopped actively playing but I remembered NU to be fairly offensive and fast paced metagame where mons like Machamp wouldn't really have much place due to low speed. I'm theorymoning here a lot right now due to lack of experience so I defo could be wrong here

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I think we all can agree that Machamp got a huge buff with this update, and is now just a mini-Conk... or even just Conkeldurr with different pixels. Obviously too much for NU and likely so for UU, but we'll leave that to a suspect test. We recognize that with these move changes, there will be a lot of changes happening within the tiers and we don't want to make too many rash decisions. It will take time for there to be stability, but change is good for a defining metagame. I anticipate an exciting Summer and I look forward to the matches ahead.

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3 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

I think we all can agree that Machamp got a huge buff with this update, and is now just a mini-Conk... or even just Conkeldurr with different pixels. Obviously too much for NU and likely so for UU, but we'll leave that to a suspect test. We recognize that with these move changes, there will be a lot of changes happening within the tiers and we don't want to make too many rash decisions. It will take time for there to be stability, but change is good for a defining metagame. I anticipate an exciting Summer and I look forward to the matches ahead.

If HA's get added in or after this event the TC will have a very fun summer along with the rest of the community.

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On 6/9/2022 at 9:03 AM, Quinn010 said:

nice 0atk machamp vs bold rotom calc super relevant lmao ( real calc  252+ Atk Guts Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 115-136 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

He only leave 0 Atk to make clear that even without investments on Atk, does considerable damage, and your calc with Atk maxed, proof their point. 
And Facade does more damage and can be used on most part of walls of OU and UU, except the Rock, Steel and Ghost Types. On UU, he will found one potential check: Bronzong. 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 210-247 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 132-156 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

even Guts Max attacked Machamp can only 2HKO on him with close combat. So, this can force the use of Close Combat, or Bulk Up + Drain Punch combos
+1 252+ Atk Guts Machamp Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 196-232 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And no, bronzong cannot do much if they enter while Machamp are using Bulk Up. 
4 SpA Bronzong Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 186-218 (57.9 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage(Note: Drain Punch leave it on 70% after damage, so Bronzong need to enter in correct timing.)

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I don't understand why we are suspect testing Machamp in UU without a proper meta at the moment while we expect more changes to come to us soon. The timing is stupid. What if you guys find it to be banworthy and in some weeks a bunch of new stuff come out and it's not banworthy again. Testing should start after the updates are finished.

 

On a sidenote I personally believe that it will be manageable even in the current meta or the meta after the changes. There is a wide variety in UU that safely forces it out because it gets threatened to be revenge killed. Similar to heracross that has 1 clear check but losses momentum after a KO. The 2 defensive ghost types in the tier can manage Machamp. So there isn't a discussion in my opinion.

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8 hours ago, Umbramol said:

Similar to heracross that has 1 clear check but losses momentum after a KO. The 2 defensive ghost types in the tier can manage Machamp. So there isn't a discussion in my opinion.

The difference with Heracross is that if he has a way to hit Gligar, attack a little more and be able to retaliate with mach punch, Heracross can retaliate helplessly for the lack of priority, on the other hand, although dusclops is a good answer and actually the most consistent for him at the moment, spiritomb is not that great, in fact he gets a kill percentage of 2 stone edge after SR , it could still be taken into account, but I don't think we are going to have a spiritomb at 100 % throughout the duel, not to mention they both  don't have reliable recovery beyond rest or pain split and in the case of spiritomb it only makes it worse to control it, I'd like to mention slowbro, but you can't enter it on a facade though I think facade is irrelevant in the best set Machamp can use, it still exists

On the other hand, about the updates, nothing is known for sure yet, they could add something new or not, in the same way, if they put something, those things would also be checked in the suspect.

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 65-77 (41.4 - 49%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 89-105 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 136-160 (79 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Edited by Huargensy
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1 hour ago, Huargensy said:

The difference with Heracross is that if he has a way to hit Gligar, attack a little more and be able to retaliate with mach punch, Heracross can retaliate helplessly for the lack of priority, on the other hand, although dusclops is a good answer and actually the most consistent for him at the moment, spiritomb is not that great, in fact he gets a kill percentage of 2 stone edge after SR , it could still be taken into account, but I don't think we are going to have a spiritomb at 100 % throughout the duel, not to mention they both  don't have reliable recovery beyond rest or pain split and in the case of spiritomb it only makes it worse to control it, I'd like to mention slowbro, but you can't enter it on a facade though I think facade is irrelevant in the best set Machamp can use, it still exists

On the other hand, about the updates, nothing is known for sure yet, they could add something new or not, in the same way, if they put something, those things would also be checked in the suspect.

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 65-77 (41.4 - 49%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 89-105 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 136-160 (79 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You are proving my point in a way, UU right now is a very boring, wall favoured meta. What your calc shows is that in conditions with rocks on the field Machamp gets a small chance to KO good physical defending walls. So therefore the pokemon is now a reliable wallbreaker that doesn't break through the tier. And is slow enough to be able to revenge killed. These calculations show to me that the pokemon is not banworthy, but it is a new good option that can fit in many play styles. So we get a good Pokemon now. Not an OP pokemon.

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38 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

You are proving my point in a way, UU right now is a very boring, wall favoured meta. What your calc shows is that in conditions with rocks on the field Machamp gets a small chance to KO good physical defending walls. So therefore the pokemon is now a reliable wallbreaker that doesn't break through the tier. And is slow enough to be able to revenge killed. These calculations show to me that the pokemon is not banworthy, but it is a new good option that can fit in many play styles. So we get a good Pokemon now. Not an OP pokemon.

Rocks should always be counted when trying to calculate something defensive, after all it is an important factor throughout the match and even at the level we have a very good rock setter, on the other hand, I am aware of how defensive UU is, still, In recent months I have seen an even greater abundance of offense teams, I include myself in these, perhaps the problem is that machamp, in addition to being a wallbreak, can be a good revenge with mach, in fact if a safer decision has not been made it is because in general there are many offensive flying mons that can cushion a mach and finish off, but even so it is something that should be discussed, if I do the calculations for defensive pokemon it is because of being in an unfavorable position you will only make sure of losing a pokemon to a poor predict,.
In the same way, it is a suspect, it is not a safe ban, there is still very little information since it arrived so it could easily not prove to be something broken and stay.

Edited by Huargensy
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On 6/11/2022 at 8:40 PM, KaynineXL said:

I always disliked the claim that "it's good in OU, so it must be too op for NU" because it doesn't work like that, especially on slow mons that can be revenge killed. I'm talking about when comparing to Conke.

The NU meta doesn't have the resources necessary to handle it. The only semi-reliable defensive answers to it would be Slowking, Musharna and Golbat. But, with dark types and pursuiters so prevalent in the tier, a well-built team can easily remove or cripple the psychic types before Machamp even enters the field. Golbat is susceptible to knock off and risks stone edge crits as well as pressure from hazards so it's not perfect either. 

 

Options for revenge-killing Machamp are again limited, as it's incredibly bulky and now has access to stab priority boosted by either guts or bulk up. Fast psychics and ghosts would be the method of choice however they're of questionable viability at the moment for the same reasons. 

 

Out of all the sets, I think bulk up would be the most problematic now that it has access to mach punch. I just don't see how the meta could adapt to handle it since most of its more reliable answers are already low viability or have moved up to UU.

Edited by Zymogen
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6 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

The NU meta doesn't have the available resources to handle it. The only semi-reliable defensive answers to it would be Slowking, Musharna and Golbat. But, with dark types and pursuiters so prevalent in the tier, a well-built team can easily remove or cripple the psychic types before Machamp even enters the field. Golbat is susceptible to knock off and risks stone edge crits as well as pressure from hazards so it's not perfect either. 

 

Options for revenge-killing Machamp are again limited, as it's incredibly bulky and now has access to stab priority boosted by either guts or bulk up. Fast psychics and ghosts would be the method of choice however they're of questionable viability at the moment for the same reasons. 

 

Out of all the sets, I think bulk up would be the most problematic now that it has access to mach punch. I just don't see how the meta could adapt to handle it since most of its more reliable answers are already low viability or have moved up to UU.

See it's not that I disagree with you, you may well be right. I'm just arguing with how people justify it to be OP by using an example in OU.

 

I do agree NU tier has strong dark types and it's quite low risk to just partner up with a fighting type like Machamp.

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5 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

I always disliked the claim that "it's good in OU, so it must be too op for NU" because it doesn't work like that, especially on slow mons that can be revenge killed. I'm talking about when comparing to Conke.

It is not only the comparison with Conkeldurr that is the reason for the ban, it has a broader background, first because it has few defensive responses, in fact I will provide some calculations towards the majority of pokes that could even control machamp

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 106-125 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 109-129 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 112-134 (61.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In fact dusknoir would consider a count of this but its use is almost nil, the other 2 cannot get 2 hits and what makes it even more complicated is that they have a low speed to be able to heal before and be a good control, in fact at least golbat could be considered in a certain sense, it is faster and could heal(Doing the calculations I also saw that bold nidoqueen could be a good control with RH damage and power to be faster, but it still takes a lot of damage)

 

Well, that's something that he always did since before the update, being a wallbreak, the problem falls when getting mach punch it just makes the problem of being able to be revenged more hardly, the problem is aggravated when unlike UU, here the majority of common sweeps are weak or neutral to fighting, taking a lot of damage from mach punch (Immune and resistant to mach are highlighted in red in the image, pink are neutral or effective).

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 76-90 (49 - 58%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 81-96 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 69-82 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Now, add to that the fact that there are a lot of sinisters on the level that can be combined with machamp to take out ghosts and psychics that resist mach or could take a couple of hits, there's no need to even suspect or machamp to realize that he has no justification for staying.

 

 

image.png.48cca54af5d2ccb43d14ae9e6bb56aea.png

Edited by Huargensy
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Zymogen already said everything relevant there is needed to be said about Machamp, it is quite literally the copy of Conkeldurr with 10 less usable stats - a difference so minimal that people can only tell the difference because of the Pokemon sprite in the screen. There is no reason to keep this thing in UU, it absolutely shreds down any defensive play with its sheer power and coverage and what is even more alarming is the fact that it can use Mach Punch to clean many of the frail offensive Pokemon. Let's think for a second, Conkeldurr was on the verge of being considered too strong for OU, a tier which contains the largest amount of options to keep Conkeldurr in check and has actual hard counters like Cofagrigus. So it's not really "if" Machamp gets banned from UU but "when" and no Hidden Ability change on the metagame will fix anything. Keep in mind that every good Conkeldurr counter will always become OU by usage just for being a Conkeldurr counter. And by doing so, that would always leave a lack of Machamp counters in the lower tiers. So there is no other sensible option but to ban Machamp to BL and unfortunately keep it there for good, making it suffer an extremely lonely existence forever.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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On 6/11/2022 at 6:55 PM, Huargensy said:

The difference with Heracross is that if he has a way to hit Gligar, attack a little more and be able to retaliate with mach punch, Heracross can retaliate helplessly for the lack of priority, on the other hand, although dusclops is a good answer and actually the most consistent for him at the moment, spiritomb is not that great, in fact he gets a kill percentage of 2 stone edge after SR , it could still be taken into account, but I don't think we are going to have a spiritomb at 100 % throughout the duel, not to mention they both  don't have reliable recovery beyond rest or pain split and in the case of spiritomb it only makes it worse to control it, I'd like to mention slowbro, but you can't enter it on a facade though I think facade is irrelevant in the best set Machamp can use, it still exists

On the other hand, about the updates, nothing is known for sure yet, they could add something new or not, in the same way, if they put something, those things would also be checked in the suspect.

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 65-77 (41.4 - 49%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 89-105 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 136-160 (79 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

in this example you show 3 different coverage moves when machamp can only run 2. also a wallbreaker is meant to break walls. if you predict good with helmet chip forb dmg its managable to prevent machamp from sweeping. 

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