April 2022-Movement Discussion Thread

[Munya]

The tier changes are happening on the 31st at some point, if that is before the seasonals there is nothing that I can do about that.  I can't tell the system hey, stop taking usage so I can set the tiers back to the way they were for these specific tournaments, nor do I schedule the tournaments themselves.  Those dates changing are at the developer level.

[Makarovs]

13 minutes ago, Munya said:

The tier changes are happening on the 31st at some point, if that is before the seasonals there is nothing that I can do about that.  I can't tell the system hey, stop taking usage so I can set the tiers back to the way they were for these specific tournaments, nor do I schedule the tournaments themselves.  Those dates changing are at the developer level.

yeah,I already know that most things are out of your power. But I remember pory2 being going to OU by mistake some time ago, and when you noticed it was by mistake, somehow it got back to UU quickly, so you or a superior do have the power to hold these pokemons in a respective tier, it's just a matter of good will. Anyways, thanks for your answer, I'm not expecting any changes from now, we all know how it works here.

[DoubleJ]

Speaking as an individual and not for the TC, I recognize that Electrode presents a problem for the NU tier. While dual screen setters already exist in NU, none do it better than Electrode due largely to its raw speed and access to any combination of Volt Switch, Explosion or Teleport to carry momentum forward. In a tier already plagued by overpowered offense and underwhelming defensive cores (which just took a big hit with Venusaur, Gligar and Dry Skin Toxicroak moving up to UU), set-up sweepers will gain an unfair advantage making dual-screen teams seemingly OP and too good not to use. Counter play will revolve around Whimsicott spamming Encore/Taunt/Defog with Prankster and hoping you don't lose even more momentum with an untimely Defog from other mons if you choose to forego Whimsi.

 

While yes, there are always niche strategies to slow down Electrode, it is often way too easy to predict its counter play and thus you place yourself at a disadvantage trying to stop this overly supportive PokeBall.

 

I personally believe that Electrode poses a unique threat to NU and should thus be banned under the Uber Support characteristic. This does not invalidate other Dual-Screen strategies which already exist, it just prevents this playstyle from becoming too good not to use.

[RysPicz]

How do you intend to have a fun and diverse metagame, if you are not allowing the metagame to change? We already have an incredibly disgusting OU which hasn't changed in idk, 2 years? Don't do the same to NU. At least give Electrode a test. Things have changed compared to how they were before, you can theorymon and imply how broken it might be, but you never know when a smart Chinese will figure out a perfectly viable counter-strategy. At least give it a try, rather than quickban.

 

[Quinn010]

9 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Counter play will revolve around Whimsicott spamming Encore/Taunt/Defog with Prankster and hoping you don't lose even more momentum with an untimely Defog from other mons if you choose to forego Whimsi.

not really like what gb said nu got the most crit mons absol alone can already stop some screen teams. you also have have a lot of taunt users in nu  pokemon like jynx completely stop a screen team(im not saying every1 should use jynx but there are enough pokemon that can stop it) if walls are really that weak i would suggest a light clay ban

[OrangeManiac]

Why is Electrode even being discussed? It's not even great. It was just the best available screen setter for UU sweepers. If anything the UU sweepers were amazing, Electrode was just their screen setter. Electrode being "good" was just a product of its metagame, not Electrode itself. This is almost as if Ludicolo was perceived strong in NU just because it has alright viability in OU. But Ludicolo only has that viability due to OU metagame (Pelipper), Ludicolo without its best friend doesn't do much in NU. Electrode as a screen setter is the same in regards to UU.

 

If screens hyper offense becomes a problem in NU then by all means discuss how to fix it but so far we can't know that is the case. And even if it is the case, it needs heavy arguments that Electrode is the problem - not the specific sweeper. Most NU sweepers aren't as dominant at sweeping entire teams as let's say Azu or Venomoth in UU, which were the mons Electrode supported. Tbh even mentioning Electrode now is very premature.

[DoubleJ]

@OrangeManiac UU also has more viable walls and better Scarf users that can stop Azu and Venomoth even after set-up. Everyone keeps mentioning Absol and other crit users as stoppers to screens, but you also have to recognize how dangerous they can be with effective screen support, which is what Electrode offers. 

[epicdavenport]

26 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

@OrangeManiac UU also has more viable walls and better Scarf users that can stop Azu and Venomoth even after set-up. Everyone keeps mentioning Absol and other crit users as stoppers to screens, but you also have to recognize how dangerous they can be with effective screen support, which is what Electrode offers. 

Not to mention most of NUs crit users have terrible bulk except drapion ( not the greatest special bulk though ). Absol and Honchkrow both have to worry about explosion or volt switch. Relying on a non 100% sucker punch crit to counter something makes for terrible play. Neither for nor against Electrode moving down just helping present information.

[caioxlive13]

18 hours ago, Poufilou said:

Why can't it be an argument ?

Reason is simple: King's Rock post. Some players argumented that: If mon had less than 6% usage, then automatically isn't viable in tier(This make a little of sense. If mon aren't good, then he will not be too used, except in some teams.), to defend that the only counter for Cloyster King's Rock isn't viable and cloyster king's rock need to be banned because he had no viable counters on OU

Now, the argument used is returning back against players that want to defend Electrode stay on Never Used. The only thing that i can do, is pick popcorn on Swiss Shops, and watch.

Edited March 29, 2022 by caioxlive13
Fixing some writing errors.

[epicdavenport]

11 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Reason is simple: King's Rock post. Some players argumented that: If mon had less than 6% usage, then automatically isn't viable in tier(This make a little of sense. If mon aren't good, then he will not be too used, except in some teams.), to defend that the only counter for Cloyster King's Rock isn't viable and cloyster king's rock need to be banned because he had no viable counters on OU

Now, the argument used is returning back against players that want to defend Electrode stay on Never Used. The only thing that i can do, is pick popcorn on Swiss Shops, and watch.

It still doesn't have above 3% usage like you stated but with Venusaur moving up Whimsicott has better chances of survival and being used.

[gbwead]

Can someone explain why I see "NU doesn't have good walls" as an argument supposedly in favor of an Electrode ban? Are walls a direct counter to Electrode? What's the deal with that? Is Blissey the ideal switch that prevent Electrode from doing its job? If no, what walls are you guys refering to?

Edited March 29, 2022 by gbwead

[epicdavenport]

47 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Can someone explain why I see "NU doesn't have good walls" as an argument supposedly in favor of an Electrode ban? Are walls a direct counter to Electrode? What's the deal with that? Is Blissey the ideal switch that prevent Electrode from doing its job? If no, what walls are you guys refering to?

Quagsire and Golurk should both hard counter Electrode. One isn't even effected by explosion and the other has water absorb to face down the likely ensuing Feraligatr. Electrode could run hp grass but then it would miss out on one of it's more useful moves.

[Huargensy]

I don't know what a whimsicott can do to a drapion on a screen team

[CaptnBaklava]

2 hours ago, epicdavenport said:

Quagsire and Golurk should both hard counter Electrode. One isn't even effected by explosion and the other has water absorb to face down the likely ensuing Feraligatr. Electrode could run hp grass but then it would miss out on one of it's more useful moves.

Laughs in nature gift feral 

[DiosSlurpuff]

Venusaur to UU seems to me that it will bring an important change in NU, perhaps the same or more than when Blastoise went to UU.

Possibly this drives the use of Amonguss or who knows, maybe Tangrowth.

Edited March 29, 2022 by DiosSlurpuff

[caioxlive13]

5 hours ago, gbwead said:

Can someone explain why I see "NU doesn't have good walls" as an argument supposedly in favor of an Electrode ban? Are walls a direct counter to Electrode? What's the deal with that? Is Blissey the ideal switch that prevent Electrode from doing its job? If no, what walls are you guys refering to?

Walls cannot counter directly Electrode, but depending on wall, can counter any mon that electrode are supporting.

And other reasons:
- Electrode is very faster. Even scarfed mons from NU, like Blaziken, cannot outspeed him. So, unlike other Screen Setters, that you can outspeed and KO before they set up, Electrode can set Screens safety, unless you use taunt with priority boosted due to Prankster.
- They moves allow some mon to enter with security in field, like Explosion, Volt Switch or Teleport. In 3 cases, you can put a mon and start to set up.

[epicdavenport]

7 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Walls cannot counter directly Electrode, but depending on wall, can counter any mon that electrode are supporting.

And other reasons:
- Electrode is very faster. Even scarfed mons from NU, like Blaziken, cannot outspeed him. So, unlike other Screen Setters, that you can outspeed and KO before they set up, Electrode can set Screens safety, unless you use taunt with priority boosted due to Prankster.
- They moves allow some mon to enter with security in field, like Explosion, Volt Switch or Teleport. In 3 cases, you can put a mon and start to set up.

There are options to out speed and one shot but they make you go out of your way to plan for this one mon and limit the effectiveness of yours. The worst example I can think of is scarf slaking and like I said that's the worst since it's set up fodder itself.

[Zymogen]

On 3/28/2022 at 9:31 PM, Poufilou said:

Why can't it be an argument ? If Electrode makes screen teams usage rise, their counters will rise aswell, the fact that they exist IS an argument. Don't dismiss any argument that doesn't suit you, thank you. 

The main problem with Whimsicott as a counter is that it's rendered completely useless when the opposing player has a dark type on their team. Drapion previously had high usage in screens cores because of this reason, as well as it just being generally well-suited for this kind of team.

 

Edit: Nvm Huargensy already beat me to it

Edited March 29, 2022 by Zymogen

[caioxlive13]

11 minutes ago, epicdavenport said:

There are options to out speed and one shot but they make you go out of your way to plan for this one mon and limit the effectiveness of yours. The worst example I can think of is scarf slaking and like I said that's the worst since it's set up fodder itself.

Okay, let i explain the problem:

Electrode, assuming nature Timid/Jolly(Timid if you use Volt Switch or Teleport, Jolly if Explosion), had 222 Speed,assuming 31 IV speed and 252 EV speed. How you will pass those speed? Blaziken, the most used mon on NU,and are most used Jolly Scarf, only reach on a maximum 217 Speed, fully trained on this stat.

The problem is your base 150 Speed, that well trained, make your mon more faster than ANYTHING on Never used. So,you can set screens before opponent try to punish this.

Edited March 29, 2022 by caioxlive13

[epicdavenport]

19 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Okay, let i explain the problem:

Electrode, assuming nature Timid/Jolly(Timid if you use Volt Switch or Teleport, Jolly if Explosion), had 222 Speed,assuming 31 IV speed and 252 EV speed. How you will pass those speed? Blaziken, the most used mon on NU,and are most used Jolly Scarf, only reach on a maximum 217 Speed, fully trained on this stat.

The problem is your base 150 Speed, that well trained, make your mon more faster than ANYTHING on Never used. So,you can set screens before opponent try to punish this.

That's pretty much what I said. Slaking beats it but is a terrible option and there are other choices but it limits your team just to out speed and one shot a single poke.

[Stokes]

Quagsire and mantine now top tier Nu xD

[Stokes]

Quote

Drapion + electrode the best team

 

[NiceRNGbro]

as long as there is ninjask hp ground electrode it won't be a problem, learn guys.

[xMago]

atm electrode must remain in UU.

[heichicoda]

Slowbro finally doesn't have to move every season