the wrongest thing i've seen so far (evasion clause)

[ronarid]

wtf? this totally destroy a big part of the game, it's always been an important thing to me, both having some evasive pokemon, and moves that never miss, like aerial ace, shock wave etc

 

i've also just spent a lot of money breeding pokemons based on that strategy, and i just discovered they cant be used in pvp

 

what's the problem? luck based? then why dont also exclude fire blast, blizzard, sleep powder, every move that has not 100% accuracy? but also flamethrower, thunderbolt, with 10% of deal a status that's luck based, not to mention critical hits, are you serious?

 

if that's strategy is overpowered to you it's just because you are just bad at probabilistic calculation, you should play chess instead of destroy the pokemon game, ridicolous that toxic spikes and stealth rock are not considered over powered instead

Edited March 8, 2022 by ronarid

[pachima]

Because I assume most won't reply to avoid any unwanted discussions, let me try to thoroughly explain why some rng based events are acceptable while others are not, in one word: Control.

 

When it comes to Fire Blast/Blizzard/Thunder/Focus Blast/... the player who uses those moves has a) the choice of using said moves instead of, let's say, Flametrower/Ice beam/Thunderbolt/... and b) The control, in a battle, to click the better statistical play (They aren't forced to click those moves if they want to avoid the miss, but they can also use these moves if that means the highest statistical favorable outcome). 

 

However, Control has to work for both sides. If the enemy wants to avoid, let's say, a scald burn, they can switch to a Poke that doesn't mind the burn much. If they want to avoid a freeze, they can try to avoid having a slower mon than the Ice beam/Etc, etc. 

Now, what happens, if you use, let's say, double team? First, you have no longer control over your own game, or in other words, you are literally playing to rely in an event you cannot control, by any means. Second, the opponent loses also all control in most possible outcomes. No matter what they do, they are stuck into having to hit the Pokemon that has increased evasiveness, and no matter what they do they cannot control when, and if such will happen. (Disregarding factors that bypass the evasiveness checks because they are all irrelevant).

 

Note, please, that this is very different than reducing accuracy (Which, appropriately isn't banned - Moves like Octazooka, Mud Slap are all legal). With reducing accuracy the enemy has control over their field, by switching their Pokemon, for instance.

 

Now you ask: Why is control important? Because this is a competitive game, and as such there has to be some degree of competitiveness in both player's moves, in this case the attempt at maximizing their odds at winning. Evasion moves, such as double team, remove this aspect entirely, thus turning Pokemon into a non competitive game, where all but luck is minimized.

 

Evasion moves probably have several different interpretation, and this is simply mine. However, there is a reason why said moves are usually banned in most Pokemon environments, even ouside Pokemmo.

 

I hope this has enlightened you.

Edited March 8, 2022 by pachima

[Minks]

1 hour ago, ronarid said:

you should play chess instead

absolutely

[DeadGorilla]

i cant even tell if this is a shitpost or not

[RysPicz]

I like the fact that he put "so far" in the thread name. He's up for a lot of surprises

[Quinn010]

double team should be allowed 

[suigin]

Make it so you can yell dodge at your Pokemon like in the anime to add a bit of agency to evasion, easy stuff.

[caioxlive13]

On 3/8/2022 at 3:47 PM, pachima said:

Because I assume most won't reply to avoid any unwanted discussions, let me try to thoroughly explain why some rng based events are acceptable while others are not, in one word: Control.

 

When it comes to Fire Blast/Blizzard/Thunder/Focus Blast/... the player who uses those moves has a) the choice of using said moves instead of, let's say, Flametrower/Ice beam/Thunderbolt/... and b) The control, in a battle, to click the better statistical play (They aren't forced to click those moves if they want to avoid the miss, but they can also use these moves if that means the highest statistical favorable outcome). 

 

However, Control has to work for both sides. If the enemy wants to avoid, let's say, a scald burn, they can switch to a Poke that doesn't mind the burn much. If they want to avoid a freeze, they can try to avoid having a slower mon than the Ice beam/Etc, etc. 

Now, what happens, if you use, let's say, double team? First, you have no longer control over your own game, or in other words, you are literally playing to rely in an event you cannot control, by any means. Second, the opponent loses also all control in most possible outcomes. No matter what they do, they are stuck into having to hit the Pokemon that has increased evasiveness, and no matter what they do they cannot control when, and if such will happen. (Disregarding factors that bypass the evasiveness checks because they are all irrelevant).

 

Note, please, that this is very different than reducing accuracy (Which, appropriately isn't banned - Moves like Octazooka, Mud Slap are all legal). With reducing accuracy the enemy has control over their field, by switching their Pokemon, for instance.

 

Now you ask: Why is control important? Because this is a competitive game, and as such there has to be some degree of competitiveness in both player's moves, in this case the attempt at maximizing their odds at winning. Evasion moves, such as double team, remove this aspect entirely, thus turning Pokemon into a non competitive game, where all but luck is minimized.

 

Evasion moves probably have several different interpretation, and this is simply mine. However, there is a reason why said moves are usually banned in most Pokemon environments, even ouside Pokemmo.

 

I hope this has enlightened you.

Nice text Pachima, however he will certain not read because is too big. I will resume for you.
 

 

On 3/8/2022 at 2:25 PM, ronarid said:

wtf? this totally destroy a big part of the game, it's always been an important thing to me, both having some evasive pokemon, and moves that never miss, like aerial ace, shock wave etc

 

i've also just spent a lot of money breeding pokemons based on that strategy, and i just discovered they cant be used in pvp

 

what's the problem? luck based? then why dont also exclude fire blast, blizzard, sleep powder, every move that has not 100% accuracy? but also flamethrower, thunderbolt, with 10% of deal a status that's luck based, not to mention critical hits, are you serious?

 

if that's strategy is overpowered to you it's just because you are just bad at probabilistic calculation, you should play chess instead of destroy the pokemon game, ridicolous that toxic spikes and stealth rock are not considered over powered instead

Evasion moves make you dodge too much from moves, making things rely more on Luck than in skill(Idk the skill, Top Ranks only spam the same move vs Low Ladder;). And you cannot avoid it at any way, unless using sure-hit moves, that are all TRASH(With the exception of Aura Sphere) without Technichan(60 Base Power and 0 Priority), Haze(That your mon can being KO'ed without have chance to react, or opponent have taunt, preventing haze to work), or count with luck of Clear Smog hit.

"But how Accuracy Drop and Confusion, or moves with 95% or less Accuracy, aren't banned?"
First: To moves with less accuracy, people that are putting this moves on their sets are assuming the risk of miss this move. People are assuming the risk of 20% miss to use Hydro Pump instead of Surf, that have 90 Power but under normal conditions(Nothing affecting your chance of attacking, hitting chance, and something simmilar.) will not miss(100% Accuracy). Second: To Accuracy Drop and Confusion, yes, they can prevent you from attack sometimes, however ,like pachima sayed , Switching out removes it and you make your opponent waste PP to reduce your acc to -6  for nothing. Rely on luck of Flinch, have Inner Focus to prevent it. Moves like Scald and Discharge, Switch out to a mon that are immune to move or their stat problem caused, or use Heal Bell/Holding Lum Berry/Aromatherapy, or switch-in to a Mon with Natural cure, and if you get statused, just switch out and ended the problem

[ronarid]

6 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Nice text Pachima, however he will certain not read because is too big.

you are coherent to the evasion ban philosophy, assuming things that are wrong

 

pachima answer was riidicolous, you have more control over an evasive pokemon with moves that never miss, and other moves that clear changes of stats, then the control you dont have like being poisoned, paralyzed, stealth rocked, or over a fast pokemon using agility

Edited March 10, 2022 by ronarid

[ronarid]

6 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

 

"But how Accuracy Drop and Confusion, or moves with 95% or less Accuracy, aren't banned?"
First: To moves with less accuracy, people that are putting this moves on their sets are assuming the risk of miss this move. People are assuming the risk of 20% miss to use Hydro Pump instead of Surf, that have 90 Power but under normal conditions(Nothing affecting your chance of attacking, hitting chance, and something simmilar.) will not miss(100% Accuracy). Second: To Accuracy Drop and Confusion, yes, they can prevent you from attack sometimes, however ,like pachima sayed , Switching out removes it and you make your opponent waste PP to reduce your acc to -6  for nothing. Rely on luck of Flinch, have Inner Focus to prevent it. Moves like Scald and Discharge, Switch out to a mon that are immune to move or their stat problem caused, or use Heal Bell/Holding Lum Berry/Aromatherapy, or switch-in to a Mon with Natural cure, and if you get statused, just switch out and ended the problem

what about fissure and other one ko moves? those too are about assuming 70% risk of miss

 

on all the things you said at the end i totally agree, every move in the game has a counter play, the same thing apply to evasion increase, 60 power it's enough to deal with it, the luck factor comes in when you put many never-miss moves to your team, but you face an opponent who dont play double team and so. exactly the same luck factor of using inner focus ability but your opponent doesnt play flinching moves

 

the fact is not that it's all about luck or that it's an unbeatable strategy, it's that is a good strong strategy that should not be overlooked when you build your team

[ronarid]

anyway, i think the best thing would be a separate pvp cathegory with no clauses, and i still havent look at the tournament but i imagine the sames rules apply to all of them, and would be great if there were tournaments with no clauses too

[CaptnBaklava]

2 hours ago, ronarid said:

anyway, i think the best thing would be a separate pvp cathegory with no clauses, and i still havent look at the tournament but i imagine the sames rules apply to all of them, and would be great if there were tournaments with no clauses too

Feel free to host them. 

[caioxlive13]

17 hours ago, ronarid said:

you are coherent to the evasion ban philosophy, assuming things that are wrong

 

pachima answer was riidicolous, you have more control over an evasive pokemon with moves that never miss, and other moves that clear changes of stats, then the control you dont have like being poisoned, paralyzed, stealth rocked, or over a fast pokemon using agility

about Evasion, we need to be realist. Example: You have a Haze Vaporeon. How you will fight against a Double Team Jolteon? Impossible, not? Because if they hit your vaporeon, probablly you being One-shotted. And are little options of sure-hit moves, most part of then are useless because are weaker moves without priority. So, you count more with RNG than your own skill. and if you don't clear their stats, opponent can keep with 3x Evasion until fight ends, unlike accuracy drop that you can remove just switching.

About Entry Hazards, they are a problem when you switch out, is a way to punish some opponent switch. You can clear it with defog(That opponent can only avoid it temporally with Taunt) or Rapid Spin(That can only be avoided if opponent enter in field with a ghost-type.). Can use Magic Coat to bounce them back(That aren't used but exists, when HA comes in, Espeon gain Magic Bounce, that are a ability that works like the move Magic Coat) or enter with a Magic Guard mon. With exception of move Magic Coat, all moves/abilities mentioned above have mons that are viable on Actual metagaming. Mentioning only OU:  For Rapid Spin, have Starmie as an example, or Excadrill(In Sand Teams). On defog, basically all Flying mons(I don't record if Gyarados learn, but the rest learns.) and Rotom/Hydreigon can Learn. For Magic Guard, have Reuniclus.

About OHKO moves, we need to check the moves that can miss. They still have a Damage Roll, and you can predict using your skill to put a mon that resist to move, before they hits. So, a skill are needed to make they effective. Moves OHKO not. If mon aren't immune, they will depend of a 30% roll, and if they hit, is OHKO independent if opponent are +6 defense/+6 Sp. Def and you are -6 Atk/-6 Sp. Atk.


 

Edited March 10, 2022 by caioxlive13

[ronarid]

On 3/10/2022 at 2:44 AM, CaptnBaklava said:

Feel free to host them. 

how?

[razimove]

On 3/10/2022 at 5:09 AM, ronarid said:

pachima answer was riidicolous, you have more control over an evasive pokemon with moves that never miss, and other moves that clear changes of stats, then the control you dont have like being poisoned, paralyzed, stealth rocked, or over a fast pokemon using agility

you legit have no clue of what you're speaking of.

[ronarid]

On 3/10/2022 at 4:39 PM, caioxlive13 said:

about Evasion, we need to be realist. Example: You have a Haze Vaporeon. How you will fight against a Double Team Jolteon? Impossible, not? Because if they hit your vaporeon, probablly you being One-shotted. And are little options of sure-hit moves, most part of then are useless because are weaker moves without priority. So, you count more with RNG than your own skill. and if you don't clear their stats, opponent can keep with 3x Evasion until fight ends, unlike accuracy drop that you can remove just switching.

About Entry Hazards, they are a problem when you switch out, is a way to punish some opponent switch. You can clear it with defog(That opponent can only avoid it temporally with Taunt) or Rapid Spin(That can only be avoided if opponent enter in field with a ghost-type.). Can use Magic Coat to bounce them back(That aren't used but exists, when HA comes in, Espeon gain Magic Bounce, that are a ability that works like the move Magic Coat) or enter with a Magic Guard mon. With exception of move Magic Coat, all moves/abilities mentioned above have mons that are viable on Actual metagaming. Mentioning only OU:  For Rapid Spin, have Starmie as an example, or Excadrill(In Sand Teams). On defog, basically all Flying mons(I don't record if Gyarados learn, but the rest learns.) and Rotom/Hydreigon can Learn. For Magic Guard, have Reuniclus.

About OHKO moves, we need to check the moves that can miss. They still have a Damage Roll, and you can predict using your skill to put a mon that resist to move, before they hits. So, a skill are needed to make they effective. Moves OHKO not. If mon aren't immune, they will depend of a 30% roll, and if they hit, is OHKO independent if opponent are +6 defense/+6 Sp. Def and you are -6 Atk/-6 Sp. Atk.


 

if you keep vaporeon against jolteon on the field, double team is the last of the reason why you lose. you can switch to a ground pokemon with whatever move like swift or faint, or mind reader and any strong ground move like earthquake

 

yes, on entry hazards you are saying right

 

one hit ko, well i agree just in part, if your strategy is to use them and hope they hit, you have very low chances to beat even any other mediocre strategy, a different thing is if you keep it as your last weapon, but even so i doubt it would be convenient to put them, especially when double team exist

[ronarid]

19 minutes ago, razimove said:

you legit have no clue of what you're speaking of.

well afaik there are more moves to respond to evasion increase than to remove hazards or heal status, i could be wrong about the agility thing as there are a lot of move with priority

Edited March 12, 2022 by ronarid

[Poufilou]

30 minutes ago, ronarid said:

how?

Competition alley > Unofficial tournaments. Host your own stuff with your own rules and hope people participate in it. 

 

But not too much hope either. Cos evasion is the opposite of both competitive and fun so good luck finding people to play with. 

[razimove]

17 hours ago, ronarid said:

well afaik there are more moves to respond to evasion increase than to remove hazards or heal status, i could be wrong about the agility thing as there are a lot of move with priority

I feel like pachima did a great job explaining it to you, re-read it if needed, evasion simply isnt competitive. Just like items that promote poor gameplay i.e. kings rock, quick claw, brightpowder also arent fair by default, even tho for wtv reason they are still allowed aside from brightpowder. If you want to play without clauses, just dont custom matches without competitive clauses instead of joining matchmaking which is competitive to some extent.