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Return of LC in official tournaments and Matckmaking


DiosSlurpuff

Question

Well, this has already been requested several times by the LC player base and all requests were ignored, so I don't have high expectations for this post.

 

I see the return of LC as an official tier as necessary, even more so after seeing the resolution regarding the lack of LC in the Cup of the Year in which they implemented 2 dubs matches.

 

I see the return of this format officially as important, both in tournaments, TT and even adding a classification system as with the other tiers to push the format a little more.

it seems like a joke that it has been decided to eliminate the tier for having ''a base small number of players'' but that at the same time have implemented random battles that make it even more difficult to find UU, NU and Doubles duels.

 

The removal of LC was for a completely ridiculous reason, and I think I can speak for everyone who still plays it when I say we want this tier back.

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On 1/27/2022 at 3:29 PM, gbwead said:

They needed to remove LC for several reasons:
1. Make room for Random Battles

 

I can understand your other points, but was it really necessary to prioritize a format that could hardly be called competitive over one that was?

 

20 hours ago, Bearminator said:

Forcing teams to run LC players just for the sake of TT would hurt some teams and reduce their changes for some months.

 

Something like that happened in the cup of the year, SIA did not participate due to lack dubs players (As far as I know, maybe it was not the reason, idk), that did not prevent putting 2 duels dubs to solve the lack of LC in the tournament

Edited by DiosSlurpuff
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19 minutes ago, DiosSlurpuff said:
On 1/27/2022 at 7:29 PM, gbwead said:

 

I can understand your other points, but was it really necessary to prioritize a format that could hardly be called competitive over one that was?

lc isnt competitive too its just braindead clicking u turn with foo

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On 1/27/2022 at 11:48 PM, Bearminator said:

Forcing teams to run LC players just for the sake of TT would hurt some teams and reduce their changes for some months.

ngl bear, this is a really poor excuse, a lot of LCs cost like 150-200k to make and obtain their max lvl 5 stats. And most others are stuff like 4x30 1x31, 3x30 1x31 1x<25 etc, they dont even cost what a standard comp costs. And please look at how inflacted the economy is, does that little value really serve as an excuse?

Edited by razimove
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On 2/5/2022 at 2:21 PM, razimove said:

ngl bear, this is a really poor excuse, a lot of LCs cost like 150-200k to make and obtain their max lvl 5 stats. And most others are stuff like 4x30 1x31, 3x30 1x31 1x<25 etc, they dont even cost what a standard comp costs. And please look at how inflacted the economy is, does that little value really serve as an excuse?

that is very exagerrated. there aren't "a lot" of perfect LC comp that are cheap to make, in fact, it is quite a minority of them that can be done without 31s and still be perfect.

however any budget LC comp is way cheaper than any budget comp from other tiers, though the stat drop is felt more in LC. 

besides, that wasn't even Bear's point that you quoted. 

 

I want LC to be supported in some way but I don't think these arguments have any value for it especially when you aren't exactly right about them. I bred a lot of LC for people that wanted to play the tier and most of the time I had to take time to talk about what EV spread they needed so I could breed the cheapest thing IV-wise, sometimes new people that wanted to play had no idea how to spread their EVs and stuff, I had to take more time again to exchange, and it's info you dont find easely even if ur familiar at some degree with the comp aspect of pokemon. tl;dr money isn't the only thing needed but also knowledge and experience & its a good thing if u find ppl to help you but I don't see any little team or teams without veterans being able to regularly bring a player that can play LC and have the resources for it, and if the one LC player is not here, RIP. 

 

In my opinion, the fact that the PvP community doesn't have grounds in the game itself (not talking about forums, that is frequented by low % of players, not talking about discord, where you just see the same active players on the platform), is the thing that will make impossible to make any sort of viable way to re-implement LC. If we had ability to communicate in-game, to display information about tiers, about unofficial events and tournaments, it would be so easy to bring ppl into LC. If you play the game, and if you are interested in PvP, there is nothing visible to you except MM and tournaments. Everything else is learning with team mates that you find and eventually you are lead to forums and pvp unofficial but lets be honest that is still rare to see.

 

However, it is very often that when LC is brought up, people are being curious about it, ask why its not playable, why its not around, what are these weirdos doing with baby pokemons, I mean, the playerbase is just here waiting but it's not given a chance and I can see why it is not, because this game does not have the tools atm to favour the introduction of people to PvP besides letting the community do it by themselves with their own external tools than the game. 

 

edit : too harsh when I said "nothing visible", the statistics was a good thing to implement and a good step towards displaying info and bringing interest.

Edited by Poufilou
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20 hours ago, Poufilou said:

Bear's point that you quoted. 

it was, there's little to no reason to justify changing teams aside from well building costs, cause even time wise there's people invested into the tier from community content and I doubt it's that hard to find someone to join their team or incentivize them into start taking part of them and learn for TTs. Also I'm not really sure which yyou're speaking of,  but I just checked a random one, not meta but snovier on showdown mixed spread (which im assuming is similiar to ours here) 20/31/20/31/20/31 reaches max lvl 5 stats. I do know some like ferroseed etc want 31s, but even then I don't remember vast majority needing, and I had boxes of perfect ones. It always depends on the spread of invested stats.

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1 hour ago, razimove said:

it was, there's little to no reason to justify changing teams aside from well building costs, cause even time wise there's people invested into the tier from community content and I doubt it's that hard to find someone to join their team or incentivize them into start taking part of them and learn for TTs. Also I'm not really sure which yyou're speaking of,  but I just checked a random one, not meta but snovier on showdown mixed spread (which im assuming is similiar to ours here) 20/31/20/31/20/31 reaches max lvl 5 stats. I do know some like ferroseed etc want 31s, but even then I don't remember vast majority needing, and I had boxes of perfect ones. It always depends on the spread of invested stats.

For the majority of pokemon, if you want perfect stats, you will need 31s in the stats you invest in, just like level 50. It is true that for the other uninvested stats, you sometimes need 20 IV (when the the BP of that stat is a round number iirc) to have max stat (and the minimum univested IV needed varies depending on last number of BP from 0 to 9), but that is still 3x31 1x30 1x20 (seems the most recurrent overall). Some pokemons depending on the spread dont need 31s at all to be perfect indeed but they are rare. 

 

In any case, LC being cheaper isn't a counter-argument to Bear's statement or doesn't invalidate it. And this fact will never be enough to cover the difficulties of bringing LC into TT (meaning it has to become official again and all consequences that it means and back to square one with devs not wanting to support it the same way as other tiers). As long as we can't have LC official, which we probably won't ever again, if we consider the state and tools of the game atm, it seems we can't have any form of official backup from staff, as Bear said it would be contradictory with the stance of devs. 

 

There is a third party in this, and it is the community. I believe that we are enough organized to not let die the tier, and we still have the technical possibilities to play it. Over a year ago now, I tried to create some sort of "unofficial LC matchmaking" with a discord server, an ELO bot, there was a leaderboard, rewards and stuff, but it did not work so well, being only advertised in forums and bringing only a community that is already divided. I remember it still having had around 200 matches being played in 2 months, which wasn't so bad considering the low percent of people coming to the server. We will never be able to re-create anything as much practical as what we ask for, but I believe it can be possible to achieve something. 

 

Now, I want to ask, if staff can not do anything to officially support and host LC tournament or events, would it be possible to receive some sort of support in some way ? I would love to see more interaction between what the community can have to offer and the staff resources. 

 

@Bearminator  @MPDH  Would it be possible, if the community approaches you with a plan and well-detailed stuff about how we want to handle the tier and possible events around it, that you can bring financial/advertising support ? You wouldn't be "officially" supporting it, as we will be taking care of everything, but you will make the community happy and show that it's possible to have other kind of interaction between all of us than just players VS staff/devs in forums rants and posts and years of begging and frustration. Would something like this be possible ? It would be so nice to have staff and community working together and not just being in this permanent state of negotiation. 

Edited by Poufilou
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24 minutes ago, Poufilou said:

but that is still 3x31 1x30 1x20

 

On 2/5/2022 at 1:21 PM, razimove said:

And most others are stuff like 4x30 1x31, 3x30 1x31 1x<25 etc

I guess that 'etc' qualifies at that, but who am I to say it right. The 'perfect LC' generally doens't take much value from 5x31, aside from maybe some like a ferroseed that runs giga drain or something.

 

24 minutes ago, Poufilou said:

(meaning it has to become official again and all consequences that it means and back to square one with devs not wanting to support it the same way as other tiers)

see but there it is, the main reason, no point in hiding behind any other reason. Squirtle doens't want it to be a thing, therefor it's not a thing. What I said refers to bear statement and that alone, not the whole thing aswell. You're trying to be picky on what you're gathering around. 


Edit: I also don't see how has the staff/community been in a 'negotiation' state, like ever. You seem to think too highly of your power as a community member. 

Edited by razimove
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7 minutes ago, razimove said:

Edit: I also don't see how has the staff/community been in a 'negotiation' state, like ever. You seem to think too highly of your power as a community member. 

So, what are the reasons of you posting here then ? If not trying to make a voice out for something to happen. 

 

Maybe I think too "highly" and we'll just have another Nope thrown at us but it never hurts to try, especially to try in a way that is less 'confronting' and more "building". Cos you can open suggestion threads all you want again and again we probably wont have LC back officially. 

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8 hours ago, Poufilou said:

There is a third party in this, and it is the community. I believe that we are enough organized to not let die the tier, and we still have the technical possibilities to play it. Over a year ago now, I tried to create some sort of "unofficial LC matchmaking" with a discord server, an ELO bot, there was a leaderboard, rewards and stuff, but it did not work so well, being only advertised in forums and bringing only a community that is already divided. I remember it still having had around 200 matches being played in 2 months, which wasn't so bad considering the low percent of people coming to the server. We will never be able to re-create anything as much practical as what we ask for, but I believe it can be possible to achieve something. 

 

Now, I want to ask, if staff can not do anything to officially support and host LC tournament or events, would it be possible to receive some sort of support in some way ? I would love to see more interaction between what the community can have to offer and the staff resources. 

 

Would it be possible, if the community approaches you with a plan and well-detailed stuff about how we want to handle the tier and possible events around it, that you can bring financial/advertising support ? You wouldn't be "officially" supporting it, as we will be taking care of everything, but you will make the community happy and show that it's possible to have other kind of interaction between all of us than just players VS staff/devs in forums rants and posts and years of begging and frustration. Would something like this be possible ? It would be so nice to have staff and community working together and not just being in this permanent state of negotiation. 

They really are trying to give excuses to don't re-add LC. He are saying that build LC teams is too expensive, However, some mons are fine with 3x28, even 3x29. Not necessary need from Max IV on all stats. Different of, OU, when even 1 IV on each stat counts, so a mon with 2x31 4x25 will not be too useful, except someones like Chansey/Blissey that are fine 2x31(HP, Def) 1x>20(Sp. Def) or Darmanitan/Mienshao(that are too paper(Paper = Mon with 75 or less on both defenses, and don't are affected by eviolite.), that a IV on Defenses is Useless.). And, unlike Under Used and Never Used, Metagaming on LC is fixed and don't are/rarely are changed(Only if some mon go to NU, because LC in theory only accept mons that are the first on evolutionary line, that are Untiered(In showdown, NFEs not in a Higher tier), with some mons banned), so a team can last more than on both tiers, that every 3 months need to be changed because some mon that can hold your team is relegated to UU/NU, or some mon of your team is promoted to UU/OU, that can make your team worse and a Re-build becomes necessary. If the problem in LC, according to Devs, is Mienfoo/Bronzong spam, in OU is a Garchomp/Scizor/Cofa + Chansey/Skarmory + Blissey + Rotom spam. In UU, the spam is Rotom-Heat. In NU, is Blaziken/Slowbro(If Slowbro are in NU.) spam.

(P.S.: Can send to me the Elo Bot on a DM, Poufilou?)

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Don't quote me again if what you say doesn't even answer to my post please.

 

And I'll repeat again, not only for caoix cos idc that much, but we can say that more than half of perfect comps at lvl 50 are 3x31 2x30 cos 3x invest are the most common thing to do. In LC, you still need at least 3x31 the same way if you want perfect stats at level 5 for most mons aswell. Between 3x31 2x30 and 3x31 1x30 1x20 there's not a huge price difference. Stop trying to make it look like something that it isn't. It can even be more expensive for some mons that require 5x EV invest to gain one little extra stat therefore 5x31. Imperfect IVs LCs are specific to certain mons on certain spread, they are not a norm. 

 

1 hour ago, Munya said:

Adding in game support requires that it become official again under the current system and we currently have no interest in doing that.

Yes, that what we understood so far. What I was asking would be something else than the current system though. The community has had a long history of holding unofficial tournaments, and seeing some community automated tournaments back recently made me remember that it was a thing, because of how little used it is. This may be a whole other suggestion, but I wonder if it would be possible to add something in-game where we would be able (the community) to host automated unofficial tournaments. For the purposes of this, it would be NOT the same place of official tournaments, it would NOT interfere with any official display, it would NOT require staff to do any tiering work. Instead, what if we could have options to create a tournament in the same spirit that we have options to create a duel, and this tournament would be displayed in a new section "unofficial tournaments" , when you open the "PvP" button ? We could have our own stuff there, if you are so reluctant about making anything official. I'm pretty sure any "gimmick tier" could have opportunity to show aswell, not only LC. If it's too difficult to implement what the community has been asking for ages in the current system, maybe it's time to give a little thought about the system itself. I feel that we cannot argue anymore to bring LC back in the conditions that exist right now. Why not create new ones that we can agree on ? 

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2 hours ago, Poufilou said:

And I'll repeat again, not only for caoix cos idc that much, but we can say that more than half of perfect comps at lvl 50 are 3x31 2x30 cos 3x invest are the most common thing to do. In LC, you still need at least 3x31 the same way if you want perfect stats at level 5.

Not always. You can spend some EV that will not increase any stat(Like 50 EV left, when you need 76 on any stat to give +1 extra point), to compensate that IV missing. That's why the reason for mons of LC be fine with 3x29 on Important stats, that you will use, because you can spend your EVs that you calc on Showdown that will left, with this saving milions of pokédollars(pokeyens) that you will spend to breed their mon, if 3x31, especially if mon requires incense, or is Male Genderlocked. However, use showdown tools and calc first.

 

Spoiler

A Example in pratic:

Golett @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Adamant Nature
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 124 HP / 244 Atk / 112 Def

With this spread of EV, I will have 40 EV left. I can, if want, reduce Golett's Attack IV to 29. As long i train 4 EV for every IV that i remove, the stat will not change. So, I can Make a change: Reduce in 8 the HP IVs and in 2 the Attack IVs. Training 32 EV on HP, and 8 in Atk,the stat will not change but i will saved a lot of money, because i will only need a 29 On Atk and a 24 on HP.



However, you can breed a 5x31 for LC, If you want to leave mon "Perfect". Pure cosmestic for certain mons, but is your decision. 
And please, if you can,send me in DM the link for elo bot(Or at least their name to I search myself.). If you can't or don't want, at least tell me.

Edited by caioxlive13
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There is rarely more than 4 EV left on most EV spreads. You keep being wrong and explaining how it works doesn't help. Anyone can go take some time in showdown teambuilder right now and do some playing around with let's say the top 10 most popular pokemon in the tier and out of the main spread possible I dare you to find as a result that 3x29 are a common thing that is relevant to any point you're trying to make. 

Edited by Poufilou
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3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Can someone catch me up on w.e this endless LC comps eving and breeding mons have to do with the primary discussion of this thread?

Defend the point of Mons of LC don't are Expensive, negating one of staff's argument to don't return LC for competitive

 

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12 minutes ago, Poufilou said:

There is rarely more than 4 EV left on most EV spreads. You keep being wrong and explaining how it works doesn't help. Anyone can go take some time in showdown teambuilder right now and do some playing around with let's say the top 10 most popular pokemon in the tier and out of the main spread possible I dare you to find as a result that 3x29 are a common thing that is relevant to any point you're trying to make. 

image.png.aa0fe94ced445efca52c1b47599fdb14.png

This spread for mienfoo will be sufficient?(I don't make this sprea,is one recommended by smogon

)

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1 minute ago, caioxlive13 said:

Defend the point of Mons of LC don't are Expensive, negating one of staff's argument to don't return LC for competitive

 

I don't think staff ever stated that the reason LC won't return is because LC comps are too expensive.

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