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How RNG Strategies Are Being Abused In OU


Lvkee

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My last post got deleted, probably because it wasn't the nicest of posts but DO NOT RESPOND to this guy until he addresses all the arguments against his takes that he conveniently ignored in the last thread he ruined by repeating everything ad nauseam. This guy bloated the last thread to the point of unreadability and will do the same to this thread if you pay him attention.

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It's very difficult to determine what kind or degree of RNG is deemed acceptable for a competitive environment and what isn't. RNG is fundamental to pokemon battling, so reducing or removing a specific RNG aspect from the game is inherently problematic. If we were to remove partially or completly RNG from the game, we would no longer be playing Pokemon and something else entirely.

 

For this reason, as competitive community, we need to find balance when tiering to limit RNG aspects, which should be done only when strictly necessary and without alienating key aspects of gameplay that comes from RNG mechanics. In order to get a big picture, I tend to categorize the different kinds of RNG:
 

Damage Variation RNG

  • Damage Rolls (16 possible dmg rolls)
  • Critical Hits
  • Number of hits in Multi-Hits Moves 
  • Random Base Power Moves

Secondary Effects RNG

  • Status Inducing moves
  • Flinches (Dark Pulse, Air Slash, Waterfall, moves affected by King's Rock, etc.)
  • Boosts/Drops

Order RNG

  • Speed ties
  • Quick Claw

Status RNG

  • Freeze
  • Sleep
  • Paralysis
  • Confusion
  • Infatuation

Tanking Abilities RNG

  • Cursed Body
  • Static
  • Flame Body
  • Effect Spore
  • Cute Charm

Supporting Abilities RNG

  • Shed Skin
  • Harvest (not implemented)
  • Healer

Accuracy/Evasion RNG

  • Evasion Boosting Moves
  • Evasion Boosting Abilities
  • Evasion Boosting Items
  • Accuracy Drop Moves
  • Low Accuracy Moves

Auto boosting RNG

  • Moody (not implemented)
  • Accupressure
  • Starf Berry

Survival RNG

  • Focus Band

Metronome

 

 

I do not claim that these RNG aspects are equivalent when they are in the same category, but that it can be useful when comparing different RNG aspects to look at those that share similarities. With that being said, I believe it's imperative to look at 3 things when discussing these RNG aspects: their game impact potential, their occurence probability and their solution disruptiveness.

 

For instance, when comparing Evasion Boosting Moves to Evasion Boosting Abilities, we can see that they have very similar game impact potential, but very different occurence probability and solution disruptiveness:

  • They have similar game impact potential because ultimately a dodge from an evasion boosting moves or from an evasion boosting ability is the same.
  • They have different occurence probability because once a pokemon uses (moveslot cost) an evasion boosting move, that boost lasts forever (unless that mon switches out) and can stack up to +6 unlike a pokemon with an evasion boosting ability that will no longer dodge when the weather dissipates. 
  • They have different solution disruptiveness because banning Evasion Boosting Moves doesn't lead to any collateral bans or issues, but banning Evasion Boosting Abilities would lead in several cases in entire species of Pokemon getting banned as collateral damage.

Therefore, it's not because Evasion Boosting Moves and Evasion Boosting Abilities have the same game impact potential that they should be treated the same way necessarily. Bans being binary in nature, forces us to treat RNG issues the same way: Evasion Boosting Moves are either banned or allowed and Evasion Boosting Abilities are either banned or allowed. If we look only at bans, there isn't much else that can be done here. However, nerfs open up endless possibilities on how to handle these problematic abilities. It's possible to disable abilities, complex ban moves or modify game mechanics in order to limit RNG aspects in sometimes a more appropriate manner.

 

When comparing Nerfs to Bans, usually Nerfs alienate the game way more than Bans and this is why Bans are prefered. I personally find Bans more "clean" from a game design perspective, but Nerfs can have some use for impossible situations where bans would be too harsh or excessive.

 

Some may think Nerfs are an abomination, should never be considered and that devs/staff/tc are wrong in pushing for nerfs solutions for pvp issues in recent years: baton pass rework, shadow tag, SD complex ban on Garchomp, Draco Meteor Complex ban on Hydreigon, etc. However, nerfs are actually way more fundamental than people realize and some of them have been accepted as canon.

 

We have Evasion Clause in PvP which basically bans the use of Evasion Boosting Moves. We have also OHKO Clause in PvP which basically bans the use of OHKO moves in PvP. But when we look at Sleep Clause, we are not looking at a clause that bans Sleeping Moves, we're looking at a clause nerfs Sleeping Moves by altering battling mechanic preventing sleep move users from putting multiple targets to sleep.  

 

My point is not that nerfs have always been there and therefore we should cut devs/staff/tc some slack with potential nerfs, but that we should not look at nerfs as taboo and consider them when necessary for finding solution to limit some of the RNG aspects listed previously. 

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2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

It's been tried to ask for a Hax Item ban here on the forum, it was denied, 
 

I will respond specifically to this point.  It has not been denied, we made a change, we are open to discussion on the topic. If that change was or wasn't enough that is what discussion is good for, if you are not going to contribute to that discussion and just tell people to be quiet about it, don't respond at all. 

 

If it were denied, this thread would have received a post saying it were denied and the discussion would have been over.

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于2021/11/9 AM6点28分,RysPicz 说:

Any results?

Few Chinese people play this forum. I asked the same question on a Chinese chat platform like DC. Most PVP novices don't care about it. Most other PVP proficient players hate King's rock

For curved body and sand sail, many Chinese people will complain that they are disgusted by them

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My lead maxed def Forretress didn't get 1 hit in on a beat up spamming Weavile today(bear it mind, it must need like 5 attacking turns to kill). Furthermore, it took my Bold maxed def Venusaur down to overgrow range before I managed to crit kill it.

 

Kings Rock doesn't need any special change to it or a '"look at me I have kings rock, I'm about to hax you ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)" on switch in. It needs to be removed.

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I don't quite agree with the topic  

Spear shell and King of the card are not as high in the OU rank as the fierce bite land shark, breaking the shell requires the control of the battle environment, near death is a common thing.  

Bullet Fist, Sonic Fist, Speed, Vacuum wave, Surprise, and trickery are all common and good treatments, which are more powerful when combined with attribute gems.  

Geng Ghost's cursed body is its own feature, you know its characteristics and existence, but do not change their fighting mode and strategy, the intention of PVP and the growth of this battle strategy against.  

Elf versus a variety of design elf designers in the design of the war for them to provide a lot of possibilities, not every elf is like a boxer face to face battle.  

PVP is not only a game with your opponent, but also a game with yourself, you can't handle +2 armor break, others pave the way for PM, hold + Shituo Guo can handle all this.  

Everyone has a PM that they can't deal with. Just like there is no war that can't be won, thinking must take the lead.  

This is just my opinion, if your idea is better, so much the better.  

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Just not sure how this thread even has to exist is the thing but alas I've got time on my hands. 

 

Kings Rock is a luck based strategy where the aim is to take autonomy away from your opponent by simply not allowing them to make a move. It is literally the definition of uncompetitive. 

 

How is this different to regular RNG? Its intent. The only reason to run kings rock is to remove autonomy from your opponent, it is the single and only goal.

 

Irrespective of what Pokémon is holding kings rock and what attacking move they are using it is uncompetitive. It doesn't matter if there are counters or checks because regardless it is uncompetitive. 

 

There is no reason for it to be playable, it adds nothing to the metagame and only serves to make it worse, if you don't want to ban it then remove the flinch chance.

 

Nothing I've said here is "my opinion", it is all simply factual.

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18 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

Just not sure how this thread even has to exist is the thing but alas I've got time on my hands. 

 

Kings Rock is a luck based strategy where the aim is to take autonomy away from your opponent by simply not allowing them to make a move. It is literally the definition of uncompetitive. 

 

How is this different to regular RNG? Its intent. The only reason to run kings rock is to remove autonomy from your opponent, it is the single and only goal.

 

Irrespective of what Pokémon is holding kings rock and what attacking move they are using it is uncompetitive. It doesn't matter if there are counters or checks because regardless it is uncompetitive. 

 

There is no reason for it to be playable, it adds nothing to the metagame and only serves to make it worse, if you don't want to ban it then remove the flinch chance.

 

Nothing I've said here is "my opinion", it is all simply factual.

This is actually beautiful and I can't agree more.

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These guys say like it's the end of the world and impossible to win. They want to banish items that only grew because they said it's op, and for sheer convenience.

1° - If the strategy were really OP, more people should be using it, it's the default. But before JorgeFireBolt made that appeal asking to ban the item, it was a very low usage item. Using Cloyster and Weavile, which are now the main leads of King's Rock, as examples: They, before JorgeFireBolt's King's Rock ban Appeal, had 1-2% usage with king's rock, on both. Note that in season that JorgeFireBolt appeal king's rock ban, Cloyster had less than 50% Win Rate and 8% usage. Weavile had 55% usage, but only 4% usage.

 

2° - The King's Rock leads, one of the most controversial agendas here, has a high weakness. As said several times: There are no moves with Multihit + Priority in PokéMMO. So you can force a King's rock lead to use priority move, which is weak and has a low chance of flinch, to try to survive, which in 99% of cases, ends up the same way: Pokemon with King's Rock on the ground and you sweeping the opponent's team.

Cloyster and Weavile, as mentioned earlier, are leads for King's Rock today. The Cloyster, has 45 Sp.Def, making any special move take him down without too much trouble. For priority move, there is Vaccum Wave, or after Shell Smash, a Conkeldurr Mach Punch is viable to knock it down. Who can use Vaccum Wave? Lucario(UUBL) and Infernape(OU) are options.
For Weavile, it takes 4x any Fighter type attack, so need I say what a Mach Punch/Vaccum Wave does? I do not think so

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5 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

These guys say like it's the end of the world and impossible to win. They want to banish items that only grew because they said it's op, and for sheer convenience.

1° - If the strategy were really OP, more people should be using it, it's the default. But before JorgeFireBolt made that appeal asking to ban the item, it was a very low usage item. Using Cloyster and Weavile, which are now the main leads of King's Rock, as examples: They, before JorgeFireBolt's King's Rock ban Appeal, had 1-2% usage with king's rock, on both. Note that in season that JorgeFireBolt appeal king's rock ban, Cloyster had less than 50% Win Rate and 8% usage. Weavile had 55% usage, but only 4% usage.

 

2° - The King's Rock leads, one of the most controversial agendas here, has a high weakness. As said several times: There are no moves with Multihit + Priority in PokéMMO. So you can force a King's rock lead to use priority move, which is weak and has a low chance of flinch, to try to survive, which in 99% of cases, ends up the same way: Pokemon with King's Rock on the ground and you sweeping the opponent's team.

Cloyster and Weavile, as mentioned earlier, are leads for King's Rock today. The Cloyster, has 45 Sp.Def, making any special move take him down without too much trouble. For priority move, there is Vaccum Wave, or after Shell Smash, a Conkeldurr Mach Punch is viable to knock it down. Who can use Vaccum Wave? Lucario(UUBL) and Infernape(OU) are options.
For Weavile, it takes 4x any Fighter type attack, so need I say what a Mach Punch/Vaccum Wave does? I do not think so

 

On 11/12/2021 at 6:16 PM, DaftCoolio said:

Irrespective of what Pokémon is holding kings rock and what attacking move they are using it is uncompetitive. It doesn't matter if there are counters or checks because regardless it is uncompetitive.

 

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On 11/7/2021 at 12:54 PM, pachima said:

I disagree with Cursed Body. There are multiple ways to work around the ability the same way one can play around Togekiss or even stuff like Gyarados.

On 11/7/2021 at 1:16 PM, suigin said:

Provide 3 ways to do so.

For flinchers: Outspeed them using your speed stat, Have abilities that ignore flinch, use priority to hit them.

Now tell me 3 ways a direct attack can outplay a Cursed Body proc without giving away a ton of momentum.

Still waiting, surely a tier council member, hand picked from the finest candidates by Munya himself, who boldly proclaims something like this can back up his claims.

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On 11/12/2021 at 2:16 AM, DaftCoolio said:

Kings Rock is a luck based strategy where the aim is to take autonomy away from your opponent by simply not allowing them to make a move. It is literally the definition of uncompetitive. 

 

How is this different to regular RNG? Its intent. The only reason to run kings rock is to remove autonomy from your opponent, it is the single and only goal.

 

Irrespective of what Pokémon is holding kings rock and what attacking move they are using it is uncompetitive. It doesn't matter if there are counters or checks because regardless it is uncompetitive. 

 

"King's Rock is not a fair item in Pvp", this is a joke.
Togekiss Scarf with Serene Grace + Air Slash having a higher flinch chance than Cloyster King's Rock (60% Togekiss > 41% Cloyster) and on top of that, with the scarf, passing anything that doesn't have increased Speed (Via Agility/Dragon Dance/Scarf) is also Anticompetitive?
Or chansey and blissey winning matches alone because you can't manage to kill one, and not even offenses that in theory have the advantage, can KO'em without taking a Toxic/TWave before (Naive Infernape Life Orb 128 EV Atk(Mixed) can't OHKO chansey/blissey with Close Combat, that in theory can kill one, because is a 120 Power Supereffective move, that hit in her weaker defense.), or even the absurd cores that not even the StallBreaks can handle anymore (Darmanitan, despite being a great Wallbreak, can't see Chansey + Blissey in the same team) , and not having many Viable Punish moves (Knock Off and Outrage are extremely weak in pokemmo), Are they also Anticompetitive?

Edited by caioxlive13
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1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

"King's Rock is not a fair item in Pvp", this is a joke.

 

On 11/12/2021 at 6:16 PM, DaftCoolio said:

 It is literally the definition of uncompetitive. 

 

How is this different to regular RNG? Its intent. The only reason to run kings rock is to remove autonomy from your opponent, it is the single and only goal.

 

Nothing I've said here is "my opinion", it is all simply factual.

 

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In the tiering post on this forum, FOR pokemmo, the thread itself states

"

3. Uncompetitive

Moves or abilities may be banned if they are deemed uncompetitive, based on one of the following aspects.

 

Luck based:

Uncompetitive Luck based Aspects are those that create unacceptable degrees of RNG that take away autonomy for the players. What may be considered an unacceptable degree is rather subjective, so it’s important to keep in mind that there is always luck involved in Pokemon, but not every luck based aspect needs to be removed. "

 

Weighted coin tosses using any skill link pokemon + king's rock and arguably serene grace mons + kings rock + flinch moves (I am looking at you togekiss) are something that should be banned if following the tiering definitions on pokemmo itself. The goal of competitive pokemon is to reward skill, positioning, and smart play with victory, rather than allowing a player to potentially sweep another player who would have outplayed them in any other circumstance just because they brought X amount of pokemon that can abuse weighted coin tosses and pray for RNG to carry them.

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16 hours ago, Harmageddon92 said:

In the tiering post on this forum, FOR pokemmo, the thread itself states

"

3. Uncompetitive

Moves or abilities may be banned if they are deemed uncompetitive, based on one of the following aspects.

 

Luck based:

Uncompetitive Luck based Aspects are those that create unacceptable degrees of RNG that take away autonomy for the players. What may be considered an unacceptable degree is rather subjective, so it’s important to keep in mind that there is always luck involved in Pokemon, but not every luck based aspect needs to be removed. "

 

Weighted coin tosses using any skill link pokemon + king's rock and arguably serene grace mons + kings rock + flinch moves (I am looking at you togekiss) are something that should be banned if following the tiering definitions on pokemmo itself. The goal of competitive pokemon is to reward skill, positioning, and smart play with victory, rather than allowing a player to potentially sweep another player who would have outplayed them in any other circumstance just because they brought X amount of pokemon that can abuse weighted coin tosses and pray for RNG to carry them.

There is no way to question the Reality, the RNG is part of the game.
Whether you take flinch or not,
get Paralyzed with Discharge,
don't move by paralyze,
how many times multi-hit moves will hit,

whether your moves will hit or not, everything in PokéMMO is based on RNG, on luck.

The biggest problem is precisely the guys that use a strategy that has no means to get around RNG-based strategies (For example: Flinch, the team doesn't have the means to attack before a pokemon that has King's Rock or Serene Graçe + 30% flinch move) and instead of trying to reformulate the strategy to help get around the problem, just ask for the ban thinking you can do it at will and damn the counters.

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2 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

There is no way to question the Reality, the RNG is part of the game.
Whether you take flinch or not,
get Paralyzed with Discharge,
don't move by paralyze,
how many times multi-hit moves will hit,

whether your moves will hit or not, everything in PokéMMO is based on RNG, on luck.

The biggest problem is precisely the guys that use a strategy that has no means to get around RNG-based strategies (For example: Flinch, the team doesn't have the means to attack before a pokemon that has King's Rock or Serene Graçe + 30% flinch move) and instead of trying to reformulate the strategy to help get around the problem, just ask for the ban thinking you can do it at will and damn the counters.

I think youre missing the entire point of what i just said, but it's okay, can't sink through to alot of people.

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2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

There is no way to question the Reality, the RNG is part of the game.
Whether you take flinch or not,
get Paralyzed with Discharge,
don't move by paralyze,
how many times multi-hit moves will hit,

whether your moves will hit or not, everything in PokéMMO is based on RNG, on luck.

The biggest problem is precisely the guys that use a strategy that has no means to get around RNG-based strategies (For example: Flinch, the team doesn't have the means to attack before a pokemon that has King's Rock or Serene Graçe + 30% flinch move) and instead of trying to reformulate the strategy to help get around the problem, just ask for the ban thinking you can do it at will and damn the counters.

 

On 11/12/2021 at 6:16 PM, DaftCoolio said:

How is this different to regular RNG? Its intent. The only reason to run kings rock is to remove autonomy from your opponent, it is the single and only goal.

 

It doesn't matter if there are counters or checks because regardless it is uncompetitive

 

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On 11/7/2021 at 12:54 PM, pachima said:

I disagree with Cursed Body. There are multiple ways to work around the ability the same way one can play around Togekiss or even stuff like Gyarados.

On 11/7/2021 at 1:16 PM, suigin said:

Provide 3 ways to do so.

Now tell me 3 ways a direct attack can outplay a Cursed Body proc without giving away a ton of momentum.

Still waiting for this Tier Council member, arguably the biggest thinker outside of the box in TC history,  the Vindicator of CB Venomoth, to provide me with the multiple ways to work around Cursed Body procs without giving away a large window of opportunity for your opponent to set up freely.  Surely he didn't emptily claim a thing and then leave the thread hoping his title alone would carry the weight of his words, right?

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51 minutes ago, suigin said:

Still waiting for this Tier Council member, arguably the biggest thinker outside of the box in TC history,  the Vindicator of CB Venomoth, to provide me with the multiple ways to work around Cursed Body procs without giving away a large window of opportunity for your opponent to set up freely.  Surely he didn't emptily claim a thing and then leave the thread hoping his title alone would carry the weight of his words, right?

Choice Band Venomoth? 

Im interested

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/11/2021 at 8:42 PM, suigin said:

Would be interested in hearing opinions from other actual TC members regarding this issue.

I would assume that most TC members are on board with banning kings rock and perhaps cursed body. Nonetheless, even if I am wrong, the decisions regarding nerfing abilities / removing items would come under the devs' purview, so I don't think the TC can do anything. 

 

Wasn't sure if you were trying to gather the TC members' thoughts or trying to engage in a discussion with them so that these items/mechanics get removed.

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Why anyone says nothing about spore abuse on pvp? This move is such a issue in my opinion... of course have a few ways to counter spore users, but its so annoying playing against it, and subs focus punch make a lot of damage in almost every pokemon, also the move (spore) is 100% chance of make the oponent sleep and can be for like 3 rounds sleeping (depending on rng of couse)?! Makes no sense to me. Would be better if AT LEAST drops the accuracy on pvp matches.

 

Note: sorry for my bad english, im not native speaker lol

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2 hours ago, Reenby said:

Why anyone says nothing about spore abuse on pvp? This move is such a issue in my opinion... of course have a few ways to counter spore users, but its so annoying playing against it, and subs focus punch make a lot of damage in almost every pokemon, also the move (spore) is 100% chance of make the oponent sleep and can be for like 3 rounds sleeping (depending on rng of couse)?! Makes no sense to me. Would be better if AT LEAST drops the accuracy on pvp matches.

 

Note: sorry for my bad english, im not native speaker lol

Have Sleep Clasule. if Spore abusers already put one of your mons to sleep, he cannot put another to sleep until the other wake up.

 

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15 hours ago, NikhilR said:

Wasn't sure if you were trying to gather the TC members' thoughts or trying to engage in a discussion with them so that these items/mechanics get removed.

Players here try to ask for a Ban or a Nerf for King's Rock and other hax.

Second try, item and hax will keep, no staff annouced a Ban of this, until now. If OP item has been readmitted before, it's sure that he will not get banned again.

The players of this tread started the problem(the item was a item of 2,4% usage before started all discussion. Jorgefirebolt probablly have faced a user of this in PvP(When face one is rare), losed up and start the cry, that last for some months. talking that the strategy are op, to Novice in competitive, now they started to use more and more(Special Infernape Users Thanks for Jorgefirebolt. Now growth elo is easier ksksksks) and turned on the most used strategy for Cloyster and Weavile), and now they are suffering with the consequences.

If my english is a little bad, check my location.

Edited by caioxlive13
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20 hours ago, NikhilR said:

I would assume that most TC members are on board with banning kings rock and perhaps cursed body. Nonetheless, even if I am wrong, the decisions regarding nerfing abilities / removing items would come under the devs' purview, so I don't think the TC can do anything. 

 

Wasn't sure if you were trying to gather the TC members' thoughts or trying to engage in a discussion with them so that these items/mechanics get removed.

I want to see them voice their opinions here, I wanna know whether we, the normal players, are against the devs all alone or if they also think certain things here are broken, uncompetitive and unfun to play against.

I've been in the other side and I know damn well that at some point you just give up trying to reason with them, but at the same time dissent in the TC itself might make them think "oh it's ok for this to be like this, only a bunch of them hate it".

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