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[UU Suspect Test] Lucario


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Alright, this thread is for discussing Lucario, if you don't want to participate in that discussion take it to PM stop derailing this thread.  This is for everybody who has posted content with nothing to do with the suspect test at hand.  Myself included when I partook in this a day or two ago.

 

 

In the last 4 tournaments, so not the tournaments directly after the tier changed, Lucario has a 55% win rate with a dead even 50% usage rate.

This is roughly the same as Garchomp in OU as far as winrate goes, garchomp has significantly more usage rate

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1 hour ago, Munya said:

This is roughly the same as Garchomp in OU as far as winrate goes, garchomp has significantly more usage rate

I actually like that you're comparing Lucario to Garchomp. Both Pokemon are Uber characteristics from tiering standpoint, the latter is just saved by MMO's policy for nothing getting banned from OU. Luckily Lucario doesn't have the same limitation from UU 🙂

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Things can for sure be banned from OU, it just won't be permanent.

The comparison was mostly because they are both top of their tier in usage and both pools of usage were roughly around the same amount of teams.  That said I also did point out garchomp has a significantly higher usage rate, so there are some differences.

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Ok boys (And ladies), allow me to input my personal view of Lucario.

 

First of all, I too believe Lucario seems a bit too powerful for the tier. Its usage and Winrate has been superb until now and the calcs are super promising. 

Is it broken? 

At first glance so it seems. However, I am not here to vote under first glances neither to take rash assumptions based on whatever is claimed after 3-4 days of testing but instead I prefer doing my own testing as well as watching relevant matches.

What did I find out? Lucario sadly isn't very consistent. Yes, it can sweep teams after set up and yes it is very hard to stop it once its set, however based on my experience as well as experience while watching tournaments, Lucario doesn't do it very consistently. Most of the time it either dies early or is saved for way too late, where it no longer does what it is supposed to do. In other words, most of the most common Pokemon don't give Lucario a proper free set up, unless under specific conditions like a locked Krookodile's crunch, which is actually the main gateway I see for an incoming Set up. Also, unfortunately Lucario without set up is pretty lacking and is pretty much a worse Heracross. 

Maybe I haven't played enough or spectated enough or maybe the battles I play or the ones I watch are unfortunate, but so far I haven't yet seen, in practice, Lucario being the monster people claim it to be. 

This of course doesn't mean I think Lucario is not broken. On the contrary, I still think it has the potential to be, but people are yet experimenting with nonoptimal sets, also other people are adapting against it with nonoptimal builds. However, from what I have experienced so far, it doesn't warrant for me, at least, a quick-ban.

2 more things I want to address, and this is as well my personal view of it: 

First if Lucario is able to maintain these numbers (Usage + winrate) for a week or two, I will vote to ban it, not because the Pokemon becomes Uber Offensive, but because those numbers alone are a really good indicator of a super centralizing Pokemon that just works too well.

Second, in the eventual future where Porygon2 is banned, I believe it is worth to note that in such a meta Lucario will pretty much lose the most common gateway to set up, and thus it would be indirectly nerfed.

Tldr; I think Lucario has the potential to be uber offensive. However, so far in practice, it is not warranting any quick-ban status and neither is it living to what people are claiming, so my decision is not yet decisive.

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3 hours ago, Munya said:

No formal vote has been taken yet so no idea, I will say asking that doesn't add any substance to the discussion so its not going to help it either way.

It doesn't? For me this kind of post embodies our current discussion about Lucario, community wants it gone as soon as possible.

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5 hours ago, Munya said:

No formal vote has been taken yet so no idea, I will say asking that doesn't add any substance to the discussion so its not going to help it either way.

Imagine asking people to discuss Lucario, but they are not allowed to discuss if they don't say exactly what you want them to say.

My question about Lucario is extremely relevant to this discussion. Now that you confirmed no vote has taken place, it means that either 1. no TC member has asked for a quick ban vote or 2. you did not let them vote despite them asking. I'm trying to fish out information regarding this this suspect test because no information was shared with us. You can't expect us to discuss this suspect test if we don't know any of the parameters of the test. Considering the initial vote that allowed Lucario to drop was almost unaninous, this implies that at least one TC member was against Lucario dropping and I think it is safe to assume that this TC member -whoever that may be - probably already asked for a quick ban vote.

 

Are we supposed to try to convince one TC member that a vote should take place or are we supposed to convince you that TC should be allowed to vote mid-month?

 

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2 minutes ago, Munya said:

Do you have any particular reasoning for this statement?

P2 and PZ are not the biggest problem anymore lol and i prefer to deal with Lucario than the 2 porygon. But Lucario is still too strong for the tier and must be banned after p2

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4 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:

P2 and PZ are not the biggest problem anymore lol and i prefer to deal with Lucario than the 2 porygon. But Lucario is still too strong for the tier and must be banned after p2

Are you saying that both Porygon2 and Lucario should be banned? 

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I would like to contribute to this discussion thread by commenting on the opening post of the thread which I believe has many misleading/wrong statements.
 

On 9/30/2021 at 10:39 AM, DoubleJ said:

The tier council recognizes that Lucario is an impressive offensive powerhouse, one that is able to break walls and sweep with physical, special, or even mixed sets. It has powerful STAB moves, multiple priority options, and can even be a reliable Choice Scarf user as well. 

Aside from some gimmicky surprise factor, I don't see why anyone would run Choice Scarf on Lucario. This statement looks like a premature assumption that turned out of to be wrong and should probably have been left out. Choice Scarf Lucario is seemingly below 2.37% usage and is therefore not meta relevant and should probably not be part of this discussion.
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On 9/30/2021 at 10:39 AM, DoubleJ said:

Crobat having already high usage in the tier, would make for the most likely check to most sets, fearing only a +2 Extremespeed after chip damage or a predicted Ice Punch/Psychic. While boasting good offensive typing, Lucario does not handle STAB Brave Bird incredibly well.

Do you have calcs to support this? Brave Bird might do a lot of dmg, but it's not really close to a OHKO. The recoil dmg is also pretty bad since it only helps Lucario breaks through Crobat. Also, if a physically defensive Crobat doesn't run Haze, it will lose to a special Lucario while a specially defensive Crobat should also lose to a physical Lucario. So as solid as Crobat may be, it is nothing more than a gamble when you throw it at Lucario.

 

On 9/30/2021 at 10:39 AM, DoubleJ said:

Despite such outstanding offensive power, Lucario also has a reluctancy to switch in and it hates chip damage; often relying on a Focus Sash or near full HP for optimal set-up opportunities.

I'm not saying that this is not true, but why the affirmation before the test. How can you be so sure Lucario relies on Focus Sash to accomplish anything? Clearly, usage shows that Life Orb is by far the most popular item and that allows Lucario to have very high usage and win rate.

 

On 9/30/2021 at 10:39 AM, DoubleJ said:

Without set-up, it often fails to have the power to reliably break many walls and could be crippled by Trick users.

Once again, I don't know why there is an affirmation here before the test. How do you know Lucario will fail to have the power to reliably break many walls before seeing it in action? Also, I do not see how Lucario is vulnerable to Trick users. Trick users are mainly used to screw with walls making them pretty much useless. What Trick user are you thinking about when saying this?

 

On 9/30/2021 at 10:39 AM, DoubleJ said:

 

The addition of Lucario will inevitably shake-up the meta and will require a lot of adaptation. We will likely see a rise in usage of NU Pokemon like Slowbro, Nidoqueen, and Hitmontop, which will have downstream effects.

You realise Lucario can be played Special and has Inner Focus as an ability, right? How is Hitmontop a good idea vs Lucario with that in mind?

 

On 9/30/2021 at 10:39 AM, DoubleJ said:

Durant may also see additional usage resisting all priority moves, except Vacuum Wave.

Lucario has access to 5 priority moves. Extreme Speed, Quick Attack, Feint, Vacuum Wave and Bullet Punch. Considering Quick Attack and Feint are just shitty versions of Extreme Speed, Lucario has really only 3 relevant priority mvoes: ESpeed, Bullet Punch and Vacuum. Durant resists 2 out of the 3 priority moves seen on Lucario. Since Special Lucario is more popular than other Physical Lucario, Durant "resisting all priority moves, except Vacuum Wave" seems like a good way to over hype a bad answer. Let's not forget that Durant as an answer to physical Lucario still has to deal with a shitty 80% accuracy and is forced to run Superpower which a lot of people have dropped in past months in order to deal better with Rotom-H. So overall, Durant is just not great vs Lucario.

Edited by gbwead
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I think this is a great post supporting why practice and observation are so important in this decision. Thanks. 

 

1. There are better sets than Scarf, yes. 

2. I didn't say it was a ohko.

3. You just said scarf was bad, so trick probably does cripple it.

4. Good bulk and Technician Mach is pretty decent.

5. Nothing that I said was not true, Durant has seen increased usage. Superpower still hits Rotom pretty dang good. 80% accuracy better than whatever Rock Slide calcs to be (math is hard)

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1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

2. I didn't say it was a ohko.
I never claimed you did.

3. You just said scarf was bad, so trick probably does cripple it.
Can you give me a realistic example where Lucario would be in a situation to get tricked and then crippled by a trick user?

4. Good bulk and Technician Mach is pretty decent.
Are you saying this based on your experience in UU? Have you played or encountered any Hitmontop in UU?

 

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7 hours ago, heichicoda said:

I feel gbwead fight a lone battle

It's like fighting with a windmill, we manage to get rid or Lucario, they will drop us a Haxorus at the same time. I already gave up after few months of trying to actually do something, seeing how it was just wasted time and effort. 

 

But I do admire GB for his persistence, and I do agree with him (which is rare). And I also think 90% of UU competitive community agrees as well, Lucario has to go. 

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@gbwead Both are as "mentionnable" (I'll avoid "relevant" cause not used much) for UU even if you dislike it, their options are just different. Do you need someone to explain to you why he used Hitmonchan instead of Top ? Or do you already get that having stronger priority isn't the same as having stronger damage options against switch ins


And I'll just give a props to Awa for spitting facts every time

 

On 10/14/2021 at 8:23 AM, gbwead said:

Are you saying this based on your experience in UU? Have you played or encountered any Hitmontop in UU?

It's getting old now but last PSL's and season 3/4 of UU ranked I was personally using Hitmontop a lot. Turns out JJ was in my team so it wouldn't be surprising if he considers the option. After all it's not forbidden to come with answers to a new mon dropping is it ?

Disclaimer : This is not a post defending Lucario I was pro-ban until not too long ago, I'm currently trying to see for myself on ladd/tours sadly this game's quite inactive

Edited by TohnR
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Not getting involved in this discussion anymore, but I'll give my final statement I guess.

Hitmontop

Spoiler

Whoever said hitmontop is a counter to lucario is wrong. It gets one free switch in before being too weak to tank another CC, and has no reliable recovery.

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. (Hitmontop also just falls short vs most things in UU, with pokemon like Crobat switching in on it pretty much without any concern and chasing it out, only to u-turn back into lucario, meaning hitmontop just took a bunch of damage for nothing.)

 

Mach punch is only real  problem for SD if its technician max atk, but stil not a good answer as it can never switch into Luc.

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 238-281 (78.2 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 105-125 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- 62.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Technician Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

tl;dr no

 

Nidoqueen:

Spoiler

Nidoqueen is a better solution, it has reliable recovery and can tank +2 ice pucnh from full, but I still wouldn't run it over slowbro or a better revenger

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 296-351 (77 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

But, Dugtrio just got its atk buffed back up to 100 so not really a problem haha

 

tl;dr maybe, but duggy says no 🙂

Slowbro:

Spoiler

Best defensive answer imo, but crunch set/special set still a thorn it its side. Less susceptible to pursuit users than other mons Ill mention later (Sigi) but the dmg it does receive could put it in range for luc

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 384-454 (97.4 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

tl;dr only if its not crunch or special

Durant:

Spoiler

Yes, but hustle. 80% is not reliable, lets not pretend otherwise, also sp set can still beat it

Oh and fun fact

+2 252 SpA Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 214-253 (82.9 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Aerodactyl:

Spoiler

My personal favourite right now.

+2 252 SpA Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 153-180 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 252-298 (89.6 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

but Luc could hyperthetically adapt to shut aero down

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 429-507 (142.5 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sigilyph:

Spoiler

Sort of, it does get magic guard so no need to worry about rocks, can even run sash to not care about the 6.3%, but pursuit krook (and other pursuit pokemon) still exist to spoil your day

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sigilyph: 242-285 (84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

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On 10/15/2021 at 5:03 AM, gbwead said:

@Umbramol, why have you been spamming Hitmonchan when you could have been playing Hitmontop this entire time? smh

Cause hitmontop is terrible in uu, just stating the obvious i guess. Also all the mentioned answers are not good enough for the meta except slowbro imo and durant as offensive but the factor that lucario can reliably run physical or special set already ruins the "check" argument just because pokemon is a momentum game and one wrong switch in can result into losing one pokemon, especially when switching into one of the best wallbreakers/sweepers in the tier. 

 

We try to find conditional solutions to checking lucario instead of facing the obvious, that its too much for the tier. If the only way you have to deal with it is gimmicks or pokemon that otherwise are bad in this tier (mismagius, rotom-ghost),then this shows you why said pokemon should be borderlined from the tier. 

 

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