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[UU Suspect Test] Lucario


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3 hours ago, PedroLindoUnico said:

How would Linoone, Charizard and Sceptile increase its usage by the fact Lucario is now UU?

Some Walls of Never used raises your usage in Under Used, because he can stop lucario. With This, most part of wall that normally Hold up this 3 mons in Never Used, Are promoted to Under Used by usage, leaving the path free from him.

 

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27 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Some Walls of Never used raises your usage in Under Used, because he can stop lucario. With This, most part of wall that normally Hold up this 3 mons in Never Used, Are promoted to Under Used by usage, leaving the path free from him.

 

Did you play a single match of never used in your life? 

 

E: nvm remember your name from a different thread lol

Edited by CaptnBaklava
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2 hours ago, suigin said:

Name 3

See some that have higher defense, like: Slowbro, ALomomola and Driftblim(this are more for your 150 HP and a 80-90 defense. and you can use it Unburden to outspeed him, just give him sitrus berry and you have 2x more speed and pass Lucario Scarfed Easy, but remember: avoid try to win one with Meteor Mash.), Slowbro and Alomomola from Never Used and Drifblim are Untiered. But is good to remember: If you leave it buff... End-game bro.

Reflection: If you already increase damage with Swords dance, because of Extra atk, why use Life Orb? Isn't more safe go with focus sash to buff safe?

Edited by caioxlive13
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7 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Vea algunos que tienen una defensa más alta, como: Slowbro, ALomomola y Driftblim (esto es más para sus 150 HP y una defensa de 80-90. Y puede usarlo Unburden para superarlo en velocidad, solo déle bayas de sitrus y tendrá 2 veces más velocidad y pasar Lucario Scarfed Easy, pero recuerda : evita intentar ganar uno con Meteor Mash .), Slowbro y Alomomola de Never Used y Drifblim están desatados

Driftblim xD

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On 9/30/2021 at 8:54 PM, caioxlive13 said:

See some that have higher defense, like: Slowbro, ALomomola and Driftblim(this are more for your 150 HP and a 80-90 defense. and you can use it Unburden to outspeed him, just give him sitrus berry and you have 2x more speed and pass Lucario Scarfed Easy, but remember: avoid try to win one with Meteor Mash.), Slowbro and Alomomola from Never Used and Drifblim are Untiered. But is good to remember: If you leave it buff... End-game bro.

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+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 196-231 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This is asusming of course that Alomomola is running 252 hp and defense and Lucario is +speed nature. Granted Alomomola doesn't really invest in hp due to its naturally high hp stat and need to invest in defenses to have effective bulk so a lot of it would normally go into spdef, but let's assume for the sake of argument that Alomomola would go max HP and Max def, that leaves it completely open to special Lucario.
 
Hell I'll even calculate a magical Alomomola with Max everything
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+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 227-269 (83.4 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Well sure, it can live, barely if not chipped, now let's see what it can retaliate with?

 

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0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 46-55 (31.7 - 37.9%) -- 92.3% chance to 3HKO

Oh...so only a 30% chance of hopefully burning it.

 
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+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-172 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 60-72 (41.3 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

 

Not very different here. Also

 

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+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 260-307 (128.7 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Can only really counter the physical set.

 
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+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Drifblim: 250-294 (97.2 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Drifblim: 265-312 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Drifblim: 348-411 (135.4 - 159.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Oh wait you said Driflim would revenge kill, rather than wall so you absolutely need to pray somehow pop a berry at half health. But let's assume your miracle scenario happens, you switched in, rocks put you at half health, you ate your Sitrus you're now faster than the opposing Lucario. Let's go, we can finally retaliate.
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252+ Atk Drifblim Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Lucario: 111-132 (76.5 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Drifblim Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 100-118 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You're only killing it if it max rolls and Life Orb recoil kills it.

Edit: I had originally calced -defense because I was moving quickly between calcing special and physical sets and how it'd fare vs special attackers sorry, in reality Drif doesn't kill at all.

Have an extra cool calc in case this incredibly unreliable Drifblim becomes a common Lucario check for whatever reason

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+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drifblim: 164-192 (72.8 - 85.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Quote

Reflection: If you already increase damage with Swords dance, because of Extra atk, why use Life Orb? Isn't more safe go with focus sash to buff safe?

To kill more stuff.

Edited by suigin
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7 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

See some that have higher defense, like: Slowbro, ALomomola and Driftblim(this are more for your 150 HP and a 80-90 defense. and you can use it Unburden to outspeed him, just give him sitrus berry and you have 2x more speed and pass Lucario Scarfed Easy, but remember: avoid try to win one with Meteor Mash.), Slowbro and Alomomola from Never Used and Drifblim are Untiered. But is good to remember: If you leave it buff... End-game bro.

Reflection: If you already increase damage with Swords dance, because of Extra atk, why use Life Orb? Isn't more safe go with focus sash to buff safe?

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 159-187 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 133-156 (65.8 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Calc'd this one just for fun.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 216-255 (79.4 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Drifblim: 407-480 (180 - 212.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (base 90 speed vs base 80, if you dont know how unburden works, inform yourself)

Now, can you please provide the 3 checks that suigin asked for? ty

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waking up and seeing Suigin make this kid break a sweat is worth living for, if that isn't then i don't know what is. 

So far we only got a few check cores if i'm reading correctly? Credits to Havsha and Sebat so far though, looking at Sigil seems pretty solid choice but would be situational, considering you need to be full health - +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 127-151 (86.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Don't think it's worth investing def into, but could be wrong. have seen some set with Flame Orb Pyscho Shift running in OU before as well which could benefit if the opponent's not buffed.

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On 9/30/2021 at 6:02 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Some Walls of Never used raises your usage in Under Used, because he can stop lucario. With This, most part of wall that normally Hold up this 3 mons in Never Used, Are promoted to Under Used by usage, leaving the path free from him.

Ok but none of these 3 mon are wall or can stop Lucario

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image.png.26362587dd7bd1d5ac1a5770ef735eb9.png

 

Very early days, but this is how Lucario is faring in UU right now - also to mention that the winner of the UU tournament hosted by Mkns included a Lucario which managed to late sweep the game.

 

It'll be interesting to see how much influence it has in the UU seasonal tours...

 

One to also mention that Lucario itself may not be a problem for TC, but when it combines with pressure from P-Z (also with a high win rate and usage), that's when things get spicy.

 

Again, it's very early days but it'll be interesting to see how things pan a few weeks from now.

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3 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Thread seems dead. Guess Lucario is fitting in well ?

image.thumb.png.b502786f8d427367601800c08fa7bac4.png

 

image.thumb.png.ffbe37e0288fdbb5361cf8c3a7a43ca2.png

 

Many of the players managed to win the UU seasonal tours using Lucario as their win-con - in the semifinals last night for the west tourney Quinn was in a 1v5 position and if Lucario wasn't burnt by scald, would've late swept and won the game.

 

1. You should see the number of players who used Lucario in the tourney and successfully won due to its huge influence

2. You should see how it's the highest used Pokemon in the ladder with its high win %

 

Someone pointed out that Timid is the highest used, people recognise that the physical set (Jolly / Adamant) is more dominant in the tier, the reason why Timid is the highest used is because most had that set for OU, and needed to breed / buy themselves a physical one - looking at the statistics and spectating tours most are now using the SD set.

 

To be honest if the thread is dead it's probably because people know that TC aren't going to ban it anytime soon. However I did spot 2 vacant positions so it'd be interesting who ends up getting those spots.

 

I'll reply back here in 1-2 weeks with more insights when hopefully everyone realises how broken or game changing Lucario is...

 

P.S. I love Lucario as it puts huge pressure on stall, but I can see how broken and game changing this can be.

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4 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Thread seems dead. Guess Lucario is fitting in well ?

I know this is some snarky sarcasm but pretty much everything was said already before Lucario was unbanned and now you have a 36,75% usage Pokemon with almost 57% winrate, which is unheard of for a Pokemon that highly used. Not saying you should do any actions within a few days (might as well wait a few of weeks, so you can at least claim it had a reasonable test period) - but at this point the people have already talked and the numbers are doing the talking instead.

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59 minutes ago, Munya said:

I'd say Unusual, not unheard of, especially not this early into something dropping.  Also I'm always being told Usage doesn't matter, so to me it seems it should be irrelevant.

so people are always telling you that there should be more factors in our meta, yet that's the only one that matters to you and now all of a sudden you change opinion? Hypocrite much?

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51 minutes ago, Munya said:

Also I'm always being told Usage doesn't matter, so to me it seems it should be irrelevant.

Okay, I can't tell if this is some snarky sarcasm again - but for the love of god can the Tier Council make one serious post in these discussion threads so we can even have an actual discussion with you?

 

But in case there is an ounce of seriousness, do you believe yourself for a second that usage in tiering is irrelevant? When people are discrediting "usage" it is only done for the purpose of not having someone basing their entire argument on usage without analyzing why the usage is so high. For some Pokemon, the usage is high because they are used to counter another significant threat in the metagame so their usage is not the product of them being so strong but something else being so strong and that Pokemon is  the only available counter to it.

 

No one is forced to use Lucario, everyone just wants to because it's so much value for one Pokemon in UU environment. You could even try to make the argument that Lucario is partly used due to Porygon2 and you could have some theoretical merit to that argument. But you don't even try. You just say usage is irrelevant. Why are we even having these discussions?

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1 hour ago, Munya said:

I'd say Unusual, not unheard of, especially not this early into something dropping.  Also I'm always being told Usage doesn't matter, so to me it seems it should be irrelevant.

Usage matters, it just shouldn't be the only metric by which something is judged. Saying usage doesn't matter is done only to swiftly shut some idiot up who wants something like Landorus-Therian banned solely on the basis of their usage because of how splashable it is. Something like a powerful sweeper such as Lucario should not be as splashable as it is in UU.

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1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

Okay, I can't tell if this is some snarky sarcasm again - but for the love of god can the Tier Council make one serious post in these discussion threads so we can even have an actual discussion with you?

 

But in case there is an ounce of seriousness, do you believe yourself for a second that usage in tiering is irrelevant? When people are discrediting "usage" it is only done for the purpose of not having someone basing their entire argument on usage without analyzing why the usage is so high. For some Pokemon, the usage is high because they are used to counter another significant threat in the metagame so their usage is not the product of them being so strong but something else being so strong and that Pokemon is  the only available counter to it.

 

No one is forced to use Lucario, everyone just wants to because it's so much value for one Pokemon in UU environment. You could even try to make the argument that Lucario is partly used due to Porygon2 and you could have some theoretical merit to that argument. But you don't even try. You just say usage is irrelevant. Why are we even having these discussions?

It was absolutely sarcasm dw, yes I do believe usage matters, probably more than most people  You were just the unfortunate soul to mention it at a time after months if not years of being told to take usage elsewhere because it doesnt matter to the conversation, when it does.  Maybe not to a particular point but in the overall discussion.

 

Yes it holds a lot of value right now, but that could change, its very early.  36% usage rate isn't out of this world, and 57% win rate is 4% less than it was 2 days ago, give it some time to stabilize even though I am all for hearing early opinions on the mon itself.

 

25 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Under which tiering policy was this suspect thread opened? I am asking because I would like to suggest a quick ban, but I don't know if that is possible.

Reversing a Prior Ban

 

If a metagame has changed significantly to consider reversing a previous ban, the tier council will discuss and vote upon reversing the ban. If a ban is reversed, then a suspect test will be initiated, whereas the Pokemon being questioned will be reintroduced to the tier it was previously banned from. No other bans may be reversed during a suspect test, nor any bans be made (unless needed to be done emergently, if this occurs the suspect test will likely need to be extended). Changes can still occur based on usage. After at least one month of discussion, and when the tier council feels comfortable moving on to a vote, a decision will be made with a majority ruling. When the decision is made, the tier council will post in the thread and notify the community of the decision. The post will provide the reasons behind reversing the ban or not.

 

 

 

Directly from the updated policy.

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Usage this early in the "season" isn't indicative of where we will be in say, 1 month from now. While Lucario certainly has the highest usage (~37%) and the highest win percentage (~58%) in the tier, glancing at other tiers shows similar results: NU Blaziken has ~35% usage and ~56% win percentage; OU Garchomp has a ridiculous ~44% usage and ~52% win percentage; and Doubles (kek) Tyranitar has ~37% usage and ~57% win percentage. This early in the season, the best mons will have similar results as players are still adjusting to the meta. We can't merely glance at Lucario right now and say it's outright broken just by usage and win percentage alone, nor can we look at the other top mons and say "they're broken too, let's ban 'em."

 

Thus far in my assessment, Lucario has looked like a highly effective wallbreaker and one that should be considered on most teams. Glancing at tournament play and in my own practice through matchmaking, it's hard for me to really say Lucario should be "quick bannned." It looks really good, but it is not sweeping left and right with no checks or counters. Players seem to be finding ways to slow it down and that's pretty exciting.

 

 

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