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[UU Suspect Test] Lucario


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lucario.JPG.4ea6ce62ae5221f965cef23f14e655e9.JPG

 

With the successful introduction of Porygon-Z to the Underused Tier this past season, the PokeMMO TC has continued to re-evaluate the current UU BL list and we have near unanimously voted to suspect test Lucario for the upcoming season, as it now has low enough usage to be considered for UU.

 

The tier council recognizes that Lucario is an impressive offensive powerhouse, one that is able to break walls and sweep with physical, special, or even mixed sets. It has powerful STAB moves, multiple priority options, and can even be a reliable Choice Scarf user as well. Despite all this, we believe that the Underused tier has a unique variety of walls that in theory could check Lucario effectively. Crobat having already high usage in the tier, would make for the most likely check to most sets, fearing only a +2 Extremespeed after chip damage or a predicted Ice Punch/Psychic. While boasting good offensive typing, Lucario does not handle STAB Brave Bird incredibly well. While no one Pokemon can stop everything Lucario can do, a wide range of walls exist that can slow it down and force it to have pretty significant 4MSS because of that, often having to choose between Crunch vs Ice Punch for coverage.

 

Despite such outstanding offensive power, Lucario also has a reluctancy to switch in and it hates chip damage; often relying on a Focus Sash or near full HP for optimal set-up opportunities. And despite such good defensive typing, it carries weaknesses to some of the most common coverage move-types in Fighting, Ground, and Fire. Without set-up, it often fails to have the power to reliably break many walls and could be crippled by Trick users.  

 

The addition of Lucario will inevitably shake-up the meta and will require a lot of adaptation. We will likely see a rise in usage of NU Pokemon like Slowbro, Nidoqueen, and Hitmontop, which will have downstream effects. Durant may also see additional usage resisting all priority moves, except Vacuum Wave. What this means for UU and NU is yet to be seen, but I personally feel that a changing metagame is very healthy for PokeMMO.  

 

We recognize that on paper, Lucario looks overpowered, but we were all surprised by how the meta adapted to Porygon-Z and we felt it was necessary to test Lucario there as well. If in the coming weeks we clearly see that Lucario is too much for UU, it will be banned back to borderline, but we anticipate this being a process that might take a month or more if not.

 

Please discuss.

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First topic:

Counters and Checks, in Metagaming Under Used.
 

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Anyone Can send your points and show to us possible counters and checks for Lucario, in mons of Under Used
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First Possible Counter:
Flygon
image.png.17a71513075ac8da9731c7182fc222bd.png
Flygon has 100 Speed, which is higher than speed of Lucario.
Flygon in pokemmo, have some sets that can counter a Lucario without trouble.
Like:
image.png.2ace1488cf22aa3e23e4a3e7dfac4dfb.png
And about damage, without Stealth Rock, can survive to a Choice Band Adamant Lucario with Extreme Speed.
Swords Dance used one turn before, depend of Stealth Rock to OHKO and is only 6,3% chance.

Some calcs are here: 

(Go for 3° Page)

Edited by caioxlive13
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56 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

We recognize that on paper, Lucario looks overpowered, but we were all surprised by how the meta adapted to Porygon-Z and we felt it was necessary to test Lucario there as well.

A terrible decision should not be used to give precedent or justification for another terrible decision.

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I posted stuff about the physical set before, but I'll try reiterate briefly here:

SD Set is scary, +2 Espeed can pretty much stop any pokemon from revenge killing it, provided you get the smallest amount of chip on some of them. Calcs and stuff in that thread because im not doing all that again.

But, if late game Luc doesn't scare you enough, which it should, there's also its sheer versatility, it can be a special breaker, it can be a physical breaker, both sets have good priority, it gets access to both SD and Nplot, meaning both set can be equally inclined to clean house.

 

That being said, it's not super tanky, whilst steel typing does afford it chances to set up, you still can't click set up vs anything.

Also sash users can stop it in its tracks, like any other sweeper. But seeing how UU has no shortage of rocky helm users/hazard stackers the only ones I think worth mentioning are duggy (because arena trap xd) and sigilyph since it doesnt have to worry about hazards.

 

Saw people comparing it to PZ, but its must scarier than pz, since luc doesn't have to worry about revenge killers, and Im pretty certain its a better breaker, with much more versatility.

 

tl;dr its busted.

Edited by Havsha
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A point that is important to highlight: With Lucario on Under Used, too much walls of Never Used will start to appear on Under Used, coming with potential to stop lucario, being then promoted by usage to tier. This can make pokemons disappear (In terms of usage, since their usage on Never Used is very low) on Never Used, appear more, like Linnone and Charizard, even Sceptile

Edited by caioxlive13
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Lucario Physical: cc, xspeed, icepunch, sd [LifeOrb]

Lucario Special: aurasphere, vacum, flashcannon, nastyplot [LifeOrb]

 

Seeing these sets as better for meta imo (meteormash, bulletpunch, psychic or darkpulse as possible options too)

 

Checks for physical set:

Spiritomb with wow+foulplay, Slowbro, Crobat only if lucario is sacked, Swampert Impish, Torkoal, Sigilyph, Donphan

Checks for special set:

Swampert Careful, Tentacruel(only if it has no psychic), Gastrodon, Gligar

Trappers:

Dugtrio, Magneton Scarf(only for physical set and if its sacked)

 

A good core to counter it and stay on meta: Crobat Spiritomb Gastrodon, with Crobat u can check what set it is and send tomb or gastrodon to stop it

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6 minutes ago, Sebat said:

Lucario Physical: cc, xspeed, icepunch, sd [LifeOrb]

Lucario Special: aurasphere, vacum, flashcannon, nastyplot [LifeOrb]

 

Seeing these sets as better for meta imo (meteormash, bulletpunch, psychic or darkpulse as possible options too)

 

Checks for physical set:

Spiritomb with wow+foulplay, Slowbro, Crobat only if lucario is sacked, Swampert Impish, Torkoal, Sigilyph, Donphan

Checks for special set:

Swampert Careful, Tentacruel(only if it has no psychic), Gastrodon, Gligar

Trappers:

Dugtrio, Magneton Scarf(only for physical set and if its sacked)

 

A good core to counter it and stay on meta: Crobat Spiritomb Gastrodon, with Crobat u can check what set it is and send tomb or gastrodon to stop it

Lucario can be maked mixed too...

 

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12 minutes ago, Sebat said:

Lucario Physical: cc, xspeed, icepunch, sd [LifeOrb]

Lucario Special: aurasphere, vacum, flashcannon, nastyplot [LifeOrb]

 

Seeing these sets as better for meta imo (meteormash, bulletpunch, psychic or darkpulse as possible options too)

 

Checks for physical set:

Spiritomb with wow+foulplay, Slowbro, Crobat only if lucario is sacked, Swampert Impish, Torkoal, Sigilyph, Donphan

Checks for special set:

Swampert Careful, Tentacruel(only if it has no psychic), Gastrodon, Gligar

Trappers:

Dugtrio, Magneton Scarf(only for physical set and if its sacked)

 

A good core to counter it and stay on meta: Crobat Spiritomb Gastrodon, with Crobat u can check what set it is and send tomb or gastrodon to stop it

Im not convinced ice punch > crunch tbh, but speaking for the physical set Spiritomb needs to be able to land that wisp reliably, as its 2ohko'd by +2 crunch

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 138-162 (45.5 - 53.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (which to be fair is within reason to not miss wisp.)

Also typing of Steal and Fight kinda solid vs foul play

+2 252 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 92-109 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO (calc surprised me cause im a dummy and forgot how foul play worked for a second)

Impish Swamp is blown away by luc after some little chip +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 351-413 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Torkoal too if rocks are up

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 261-308 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Sigi seems prettyy solid ngl I had forgotten it even outsped luc, so probably worth running a sigi more often that I had before

Donphan if healthy is good yeah +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 286-339 (74.4 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery but without recovery its still kinda scary maybe im just a coward

 

Buuut alot of what im saying its contingent on it getting +2 first.

 

Edited by Havsha
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2 minutes ago, Havsha said:

Im not convinced ice punch > crunch tbh, but speaking for the physical set Spiritomb needs to be able to l and that wisp reliably, as its 2ohko'd by +2 crunch

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 138-162 (45.5 - 53.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (which to be fair is within reason to not miss wisp.)

Also typing of Steal and Fight kinda solid vs foul play

+2 252 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 92-109 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO (calc surprised me cause im a dummy and forgot how foul play worked for a second)

Impish Swamp is blown away by luc after some little chip +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 351-413 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Torkoal too if rocks are up

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 261-308 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Sigi seems prettyy solid ngl I had forgotten it even outsped luc, so probably worth running a sigi more often that I had before

Donphan if healthy is good yeah +2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 286-339 (74.4 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery but without recovery its still kinda scary maybe im just a coward

 

Buuut alot of what im saying its contingent on it getting +2 first.

 

To use Swords Dance, need to give up from Scarf, making anything that have more speed pass him.

A Combo of Flygon + Other mon with a Priority move can make Lucario death if he runs Life Orb or Focus Sash

You can use a Linnone to E-speed Lucario after focus sash Activate.

 

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Just now, caioxlive13 said:

To use Swords Dance, need to give up from Scarf, making anything that have more speed pass him.

A Combo of Flygon + Other mon with a Priority move can make Lucario death if he runs Life Orb or Focus Sash

You can use a Linnone to E-speed Lucario after focus sash Activate.

 

Irrelevant if Lucarios priority espeed or vacuum wave is able to pick up the kill on them, as youve shown FULL hp flygon can survive +2 luc, but if its been chipped at all, lucario just sweeps

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11 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

To use Swords Dance, need to give up from Scarf, making anything that have more speed pass him.

A Combo of Flygon + Other mon with a Priority move can make Lucario death if he runs Life Orb or Focus Sash

You can use a Linnone to E-speed Lucario after focus sash Activate.

 

If Focus Sash didn't activated, DON'T USE FAKE OUT. Fake out can Flinch and Boost Speed, or doesn't flinch.
How? Respectively: Steadfast or Inner Focus

 

Edited by caioxlive13
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I do not know why to compare pZ with Lucario, pZ still suffers from Revenge kill, his typing prevents him from configuring before many things and being able to enter before others, Lucario no, his type despite his defenses the type gives him certain resistances that he can use to boost , An example is the crunch or stone edge of a krooko choice, also, the problem with pZ is that the fastest attackers pressed it too much, to the point that in some games I have always felt it like a dead weight, lucas did not , in addition to that pZ when configuring nasty you could put another faster mon and make it run away, instead Lucario can stay and in a +2 eliminate the Revenge killers, so you need to have your fastest sweepers to full life to avoid the sweep, although Crobat was mentioned as a control, it still suffers from rocks and a good predictor could make ice crobat fall with extreme and rocks, or keep it above 50%, which is difficult due to the fact that rocks UU setter push him, igu At least I would not be surprised to see lucario nasty running psychic, I have played a few games recently and watching the opponent's buildeo I have been able to configure Lucario in a Krooko pursuit and porygon discharges and sweep a common team with him.

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32 minutes ago, Sebat said:

 

 

 

A good core to counter it and stay on meta: Crobat Spiritomb Gastrodon, with Crobat u can check what set it is and send tomb or gastrodon to stop it

I don't know, it seems like a problem to me having to take 3 mons just to stop one

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20 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

I do not know why to compare pZ with Lucario, pZ still suffers from Revenge kill, his typing prevents him from configuring before many things and being able to enter before others, Lucario no, his type despite his defenses the type gives him certain resistances that he can use to boost , An example is the crunch or stone edge of a krooko choice, also, the problem with pZ is that the fastest attackers pressed it too much, to the point that in some games I have always felt it like a dead weight, lucas did not , in addition to that pZ when configuring nasty you could put another faster mon and make it run away, instead Lucario can stay and in a +2 eliminate the Revenge killers, so you need to have your fastest sweepers to full life to avoid the sweep, although Crobat was mentioned as a control, it still suffers from rocks and a good predictor could make ice crobat fall with extreme and rocks, or keep it above 50%, which is difficult due to the fact that rocks UU setter push him, igu At least I would not be surprised to see lucario nasty running psychic, I have played a few games recently and watching the opponent's buildeo I have been able to configure Lucario in a Krooko pursuit and porygon discharges and sweep a common team with him.

Don't forget to mention that it cannot be intimidated either 🙂

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1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

Flygon in pokemmo, have some sets that can counter a Lucario without trouble.

How can Flygon be a counter of Lucario? It can't switch in any moves of Lucario and besides that a +2 E-Speed from Lucario has a 25% chance to OHKO it after 1 rocks so it can't even be considered a revenge killer.

45 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

To use Swords Dance, need to give up from Scarf, making anything that have more speed pass him.

A Combo of Flygon + Other mon with a Priority move can make Lucario death if he runs Life Orb or Focus Sash

You can use a Linnone to E-speed Lucario after focus sash Activate.

 

L-Linoone?

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 127-151 (81.9 - 97.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Good Luck trying to keep ur Lucario's "counter" full life the entire match

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

This can make pokemons disappear (In terms of usage, since their usage on Never Used is very low) on Never Used, appear more, like Linnone and Charizard, even Sceptile

How would Linoone, Charizard and Sceptile increase its usage by the fact Lucario is now UU?

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31 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

I don't know, it seems like a problem to me having to take 3 mons just to stop one

? this core is good including the last meta, its not just made for lucario, u can use the checks or trappers that i said before

 

anyways I'm agreed to ban lucario and p-z, uu has enough revenge killers like swampert bulkup, scrafty dd, sigilyph, etc. and they do it well, put more and more broken it's not healthy, the ppl just will play 6 wall or hyperoffensive to stop them, we will have an uber meta in an under used tier... 

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