Jump to content

Discussion for the implementation of heavy duty boots


Recommended Posts

This topic is purely to discuss the communities views on heavy duty boots and whether their introduction would be a healthy addition to the meta game.

 

      Ever since generation 4 when stealth rocks were introduced they have been a over centralized and massively utilized move throughout the game. But before rocks we had spikes another type of entry hazard so why do rocks in particular matter? Taking type in to account unlike spikes rocks can do a measly 3.125% damage to a unreasonable 50% just for a pokemon being switched in. This is something that has made dedicated leads just to set up rocks putting your opponent on the backfoot turn 1 with little risk to the playing setting them. Some leads are even used as fodder that will stay in and sac themselves just to simply to damage and make sure rocks stay up. The possibility of losing 25 to 50% hp on a single switch has made some pokemon entirely unviable, even effecting whole typings. To add to the topic any damage calculation that can be made is improved by the presence of rocks. Stealth rock is also more unique beyond taking typing in account from other hazards as it has no immunities like spikes and no entry remover like toxic spikes.

      The hazard isn't perfect though it has counters in rapid spin and defog. The 2 moves themselves still being risky as the pokemon being switched in to remove them are still effected by rocks and this effects what pokemon are even useful at removing them, limiting team building. The introduction of heavy duty boots would give a fighting chance to pokemon with a 4x weakness who can be ko'd within 2 switches simply because a player put up entry hazards, could give more options for removal of hazards with choices like cryogonal not losing 25% hp to switch in and spin, as well as bring balance to a very centralizing move that has effected the game for generations. 

Link to comment
14 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Excluding Volcarona, what other "stuff" do you think would become broken with this item?

Rather than things becoming broken it's closer to a meta shake up of the highest magnitude across all tiers which would seldom have any recovery from. For starters sure, Volcarona is the obvious suspect, but so are any set up sweepers who are weak to rocks, Gyarados, Togekiss and need I remind you of our eventual Multiscale Dragonite (Who may be coupled with a buffed Outrage if the promise of buffing Outrage once HAs and legendaries are out is still up). Coupled with this defensive playstyles would be buffed enormously. Lack of hazards mean stuff like Mandibuzz, Rotom or an eventual Zapdos would have absolute control of hazards cleaning them up for defensive stuff that isn't running the item without any penalties. Things like Blissey wouldn't be chipped by them making it harder to put in range for KOs, an eventual Regenerator Slowbro wouldn't be affected by Toxic Spikes, etc. Coupled with this Knock Off is not that common due to understandable reasons so getting rid of opposing boots would be an ordeal.

Hazards are in a good spot, I'd say they are even in a slightly weak spot with Defog being so safe and prevalent and they are only gonna get weaker as we gain access to stuff like Magic Bounce, Zapdos, or the Latis.

So yeah I don't really see Heavy Duty Boots improving our meta, I can only see it devolving into a stallfest the likes of which the devs have disapproved of before, either that or a duel between offenses that is decided pretty much by matchup and who sets up first (Which in turn would promote stall since you know, why go for the coin toss when you can just wall everything).

Edited by suigin
Link to comment
5 hours ago, suigin said:

Rather than things becoming broken it's closer to a meta shake up of the highest magnitude across all tiers which would seldom have any recovery from. For starters sure, Volcarona is the obvious suspect, but so are any set up sweepers who are weak to rocks, Gyarados, Togekiss and need I remind you of our eventual Multiscale Dragonite (Who may be coupled with a buffed Outrage if the promise of buffing Outrage once HAs and legendaries are out is still up).

 

Coupled with this defensive playstyles would be buffed enormously. Lack of hazards mean stuff like Mandibuzz, Rotom or an eventual Zapdos would have absolute control of hazards cleaning them up for defensive stuff that isn't running the item without any penalties. Things like Blissey wouldn't be chipped by them making it harder to put in range for KOs, an eventual Regenerator Slowbro wouldn't be affected by Toxic Spikes, etc. Coupled with this Knock Off is not that common due to understandable reasons so getting rid of opposing boots would be an ordeal.

 

Hazards are in a good spot, I'd say they are even in a slightly weak spot with Defog being so safe and prevalent and they are only gonna get weaker as we gain access to stuff like Magic Bounce, Zapdos, or the Latis.

So yeah I don't really see Heavy Duty Boots improving our meta, I can only see it devolving into a stallfest the likes of which the devs have disproved of before, either that or a duel between offenses that is decided pretty much by matchup and who sets up first (Which in turn would promote stall since you know, why go for the coin toss when you can just wall everything).

While I don't necessarily agree that HDB would push sweepers like Gyarados or Togekiss over the edge, as they'll still have their slew of albeit shaky checks and counters post-setup, I do agree that the prospect of Multiscale Dnite is concerning with this item. I also see losing other items such as Life Orb, damage reducing berries, leftovers, etc as a big trade, but probably worth it.

 

Now you brought up the question of defensive improvement with this item, which is what I was hoping @Lvkee was gonna bring up. It's a solid point and very much concerning, as you said, hazard removal opens the road for others to not use this item, and we really lack a lot that can swing momentum by those attempting to Defog (Defiant and Contrary) or Rapid Spin (Rough Skin Garchomp).

 

Solid points all around Suigin, much appreciated as always.

Link to comment
18 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

 I do agree that the prospect of Multiscale Dnite is concerning with this item. I also see losing other items such as Life Orb, damage reducing berries, leftovers, etc as a big trade, but probably worth it.

Not as good at these discussions as most, just a question. Would the introduction of boots not also promote the use of more ice types? bringing a kind of natural check to dragonite. From what I can tell most stab invested ice attacks even shard would one shot even with multiscale active.

 

Edit: This obviously only really goes for dragonite.

Edited by epicdavenport
Link to comment
On 9/29/2021 at 11:00 AM, epicdavenport said:

Not as good at these discussions as most, just a question. Would the introduction of boots not also promote the use of more ice types? bringing a kind of natural check to dragonite. From what I can tell most stab invested ice attacks even shard would one shot even with multiscale active.

 

Edit: This obviously only really goes for dragonite.

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 116-140 (69.8 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not even close
Edited by RysPicz
Link to comment
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.