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October-Movement Discussion Thread


Munya

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10 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I ran a bunch of matches overnight with both physical and special life orb sets. Both have outstanding wallbreaking, with special being a little better. Special has a tough time sweeping with Crobat and Yanmega resisting vacuum wave, thus physical is a little better. Didn't run into Slowbro but a few Dusclops, so would still prefer Crunch over Ice Punch. 

 

Only played against one and the opponent was quite bad, I fainted it with a Krook before it did anything. No signs of screens + Lucario yet. 

 

Matches were typically pretty fast paced and I felt a lot of pressure on my Porygon2, although it did tend to live forever or at least be one of my last mons in the couple matches I lost. 

And Flygon Jolly/Naive/Hasty can pass Lucario Life orb/Choice Band/Choice Specs/Focus Sash, without troubles.


236 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 360-426 (128.1 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Well, we see that flygon, even Jolly and not full invested in Atk, can OHKO Lucario.

252+ Atk Choice Band Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 154-182 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And E-Speed from lucario, even adamant and choice band, can't kill Flygon in one shot.

252+ Atk Choice Band Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon on a critical hit: 232-273 (77 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even if critical.

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9 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

And Flygon Jolly/Naive/Hasty can pass Lucario Life orb/Choice Band/Choice Specs/Focus Sash, without troubles.


236 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 360-426 (128.1 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Well, we see that flygon, even Jolly and not full invested in Atk, can OHKO Lucario.

252+ Atk Choice Band Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 154-182 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And E-Speed from lucario, even adamant and choice band, can't kill Flygon in one shot.

252+ Atk Choice Band Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon on a critical hit: 232-273 (77 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even if critical.

Flygon has to be full hitpoints to deal with Luc after +2. This is very little chip, and pretty easy to get if you know you're going for luc sweep

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

I've played a few games today with physical sd luc, its kinda busted ngl, half the matches I don't seem to even need to set up, Luc can just clean up, but in cases I did get +2 it just swept. Since late game, anything that could hope to revenge luc loses to +2 priority. I've been running crunch over ice punch, nothings really given it an issue, havent ran into gligar though

 

I do feel like physical is better than the special set, but Ill run more sp lucs tonight.

 

I also found that one of the "better" revengers for Lucs are other Lucs since it can lose the speed tie if its physical vs physical, or special just beats the physical set in a 1v1. But speed ties aren't a reliable solution, so yeah. (scarf luc would be reliable) I also figure scarf metagross would then also just serve as a reliable answe, but I dont know how good scarf meta will be here.

Sash Sigi is also a good answer.

And finally durant, Im half tempted to run swarm so I dont have to worry about hustle miss /j

 

In conclusion:

It's busted.

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3 minutes ago, Havsha said:

Flygon has to be full hitpoints to deal with Luc after +2. This is very little chip, and pretty easy to get if you know you're going for luc sweep

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

I've played a few games today with physical sd luc, its kinda busted ngl, half the matches I don't seem to even need to set up, Luc can just clean up, but in cases I did get +2 it just swept. Since late game, anything that could hope to revenge luc loses to +2 priority. I've been running crunch over ice punch, nothings really given it an issue, havent ran into gligar though

 

I do feel like physical is better than the special set, but Ill run more sp lucs tonight.

 

I also found that one of the "better" revengers for Lucs are other Lucs since it can lose the speed tie if its physical vs physical, or special just beats the physical set in a 1v1. But speed ties aren't a reliable solution, so yeah. (scarf luc would be reliable) I also figure scarf metagross would then also just serve as a reliable answe, but I dont know how good scarf meta will be here.

Sash Sigi is also a good answer.

And finally durant, Im half tempted to run swarm so I dont have to worry about hustle miss /j

 

In conclusion:

It's busted.

Meta moved up to OU by usage so we prob won't even be able to check if it works in the forseeable future.

 

Spoiler

Also I spectated your matches. :V

 

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First thing, Dugtrio is banned, so I believe NU has the potential to be a good tier to play, thank you for that.

 

Second thing, why no explaination is provided about Alakazam ? It's not even mentionned that it's banned to NUBL or why ? Could've used TC's reasoning, not that I'm against it or anything (unless I missed a sudden rise in usage)

 

Third thing what's the argument for keeping p2 in the tier ? Given the only offensive checks of it are Metagross and Heracross (being able to take a +1 modest hit and threaten it back) who both rose to OU. But it's not like I'm surprised given TC does TC things. Sure Lucario adds a really good answer for p2, but since it'll most likely be quick banned, I wouldn't be too sure that's a strong argument for keeping it. 

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6 minutes ago, TohnR said:

First thing, Dugtrio is banned, so I believe NU has the potential to be a good tier to play, thank you for that.

 

Second thing, why no explaination is provided about Alakazam ? It's not even mentionned that it's banned to NUBL or why ? Could've used TC's reasoning, not that I'm against it or anything (unless I missed a sudden rise in usage)

 

Third thing what's the argument for keeping p2 in the tier ? Given the only offensive checks of it are Metagross and Heracross (being able to take a +1 modest hit and threaten it back) who both rose to OU. But it's not like I'm surprised given TC does TC things. Sure Lucario adds a really good answer for p2, but since it'll most likely be quick banned, I wouldn't be too sure that's a strong argument for keeping it. 

As for Alacazam, it had a rise in usage the last week of the season, so it stayed UU by usage quite comfortably. 

Edited by Gruul
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@Munya
My comments regarding the updated tiering policy:

 

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Official Tier Council Organization

The official tier council is made up of players who were selected for their competitive knowledge and contributions to past and present tier discussions. These players will monitor all 3 tiers (OU, UU, and NU) and it is their job to recognize any centralizing Pokemon and make the necessary recommendations to remedy any negative effect it creates. They are also responsible for addressing players who come forward with suggestions regarding the meta in terms of tiering through public discussion. Both of these tasks will be aided in the use of public threads posted in this section to garner further discussion and feedback from the community. Tier discussions are also a chance for the tier council to communicate their stance and respond to any critique or counter arguments (always in a positive and respectful way).

 

There are several active clauses in Doubles right now. Since TC only looks at OU, UU and NU, does this mean all current clauses affecting Doubles will be removed?

 

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Standard Process

 

Standard bans will be made through the following process:

 

1.     A community member or tier council member recommends further discussion on a Pokemon or an aspect of the competitive metagame (i.e. move, ability, etc.).

2.   If deemed appropriate, a tier council member then opens a discussion thread in the public forum.

3.     The community and tier council discuss the aspects of the aforementioned Pokemon, move, ability, etc for a period of at least one week (will likely take longer).

4.     After a period of at least one week of discussion, the tier council will vote whether to ban, keep, or proceed with a suspect test of the nominated Pokemon, move, ability, etc.

5.   A suspect test is a temporary ban over a period of time lasting for at least one month, and likely for an entire 3-month cycle. This allows for analysis of the tier and discussion amongst the tier council and the community. The tier council will proceed with a vote to ban or keep the suspected Pokemon once the appropriate amount of time has passed and a decision is ready to be made.

6.   A vote requires a 2/3 majority by the tier council to pass

7.     When the decision is made, the council will post in the thread and notify the community of the decision. This post will provide the reasons behind the decision.

8.     No subsequent bans will be made for a period of at least one month after the ban was announced in order for the tier to stabilize after the change; changes may still occur by usage as dictated above.

2. I'm assuming the Tiering Policy has been updated after Dugtrio's ban because otherwise Dugtrio's ban did not follow the current Tiering Policy.
6. If the vote count is not disclosed publicly, this point should most likely be removed.

 

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Quick Bans

 

Quick bans will be made when a certain aspect (be it a Pokémon, an ability, a move, an item or a combination of the aforementioned) of the metagame becomes so blatantly broken that passing it through a formal discussion or testing period would be a waste of time and effort for everyone.

 

 

Reversing a Prior Ban

 

If a metagame has changed significantly to consider reversing a previous ban, the tier council will discuss and vote upon reversing the ban. If a ban is reversed, then a suspect test will be initiated, whereas the Pokemon being questioned will be reintroduced to the tier it was previously banned from. No other bans may be reversed during a suspect test, nor any bans be made (unless needed to be done emergently, if this occurs the suspect test will likely need to be extended). Changes can still occur based on usage. After at least one month of discussion, and when the tier council feels comfortable moving on to a vote, a decision will be made with a majority ruling. 

Based on this, a quick ban should be able to put an end to a reverse ban suspect test that is supposed to last at least one month. If that is correct, Lucario could be banned before the end of the month, correct?

 

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Special Considerations and Rules

 

  1. If a Pokemon is voted on and banned from OU (moved to Ubers), the tier council, overseeing staff, and developers will discuss how to best "nerf" said Pokemon for     reintroduction. For example, Garchomp was banned from OU but reintroduced without Swords Dance, which was determined to be the reason it was broken. Similarly, Draco Meteor was removed from Hydreigon. If significant changes to the metagame have been implemented, these changes can be reversed through a suspect test if deemed appropriate by the tier council. Community members can suggest discussing these changes and a thread will be opened by a tier council member.

The last sentence is very interesting. Does this mean no nerf is possible without the prior input of the community? If that is the case, how much time will the competitive scene have to give their input?

 

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Special Considerations and Rules

 

3. Tier council members cannot disclose confidential information relayed to them by overseeing staff or developers (i.e. pending updates that have not yet been announced to the public).

Maybe it was written somewhere else, but TC members were not allowed to disclove confidential information about other members of the TC. Is that no longer the case and TC members can share publicly what other TC members are saying in private?

 

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Tier Discussion Moderation

We recommend that you reaSenile's guide to discussion etiquette and the Competition Alley rules before you start posting in this section.

Is there a reason why the Tiering Etiquette should be considered a reference for tiering discussions if, according to the Tiering Policy, the Tier Council is not bound in any way to the Tiering Etiquette. Why should the community keep in mind the ban criteria of the Tiering Etiquette if the TC disregard them when tiering?

 

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IT was indeed updated, roughly around the same time maybe very shortly after.

The 3 main tiers thing is probably just a confusion of wording as they watch/vote on doubles things as well, the thing is doubles very rarely needs any action taken, but action can be taken there if something is ever deemed to need it.

The not disclosing information of other members this is in the TC agreement which is different than the policy itself, I will see about getting it added though.

We have talked about refining the etiquette guide to be more of a definitions guide.  The definitions laid out there are still very relevant.

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6 minutes ago, Munya said:

IT was indeed updated, roughly around the same time maybe very shortly after.

The 3 main tiers thing is probably just a confusion of wording as they watch/vote on doubles things as well, the thing is doubles very rarely needs any action taken, but action can be taken there if something is ever deemed to need it.

The not disclosing information of other members this is in the TC agreement which is different than the policy itself, I will see about getting it added though.

We have talked about refining the etiquette guide to be more of a definitions guide.  The definitions laid out there are still very relevant.

Ok, good to know.

What about the interaction between Quick Bans and Reverse Bans? Is it theorically possible for Lucario to get banned before the end of the month?

Is it possible to get some level of confirmation that based on the Tiering Policy, no nerf is possible without the input of the community? Perhaps I did not interpret the policy correctly, which is why I would appreciate some clarification.

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Will have to discuss the quick ban thing, I probably wouldn't object but I do want some additional feedback from the TC/other overseeing staff before saying yes or no to that.

 

Also something else that isn't mentioned in the policy that I need added is we prefer to start tests during the first or second month due to the wider margin for moving, tests have less impact on the tiers in the event whatever is being tested is broken.  So they don't negatively effect the tier below it for no reason.

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