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October-Movement Discussion Thread


Munya

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3 hours ago, Imperial said:

Why is Roserade still banned from NU?

You know, that is a very good question. With Venusaur proving to be a solid fit (and also being a check for Roserade in a sense), we should honestly reintroduce it as well, but that's my opinion.

 

 

Now for the rest of you all knowing "community-players" who obviously know what decisions should be made, I have to remind you that the TC is quite active (cough cough Zebra... Tyrone... cough) and now have an activity requirement. Just because some of us don't partake in a "time-suck, poor-timing, bad-prize, not-worth-it" system like tournaments doesn't mean we aren't involved in the game. Lucario was voted on several months ago and determined to be a worthwhile test, our arguments are well laid out in prior threads so please review those for our discussion and opinion.

 

Now I do feel you all for how slow tier changes occur, this is just a manifest of our game. Matchmaking has certainly allowed us to have more data faster and make better decisions, but it doesn't change the fact that all of these decision are incredibly difficult and often times mixed. Just look at your community discussions for example, where there is a lot of variety in opinion. That is often reflected in the TC, which is honestly good, because we don't want a lopsided system.

 

Anyhoos, I'm sorry y'all don't feel heard, but for those of you who want immediate decisions and try to find every reason to complain, I lack sympathy for you. The TC has been elected by a tyrannical system and we make the decisions, but of course with reading through your many comments and responses = )

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the amount of excuses they come up with just to keep the dead members, too bad I'm friends with the old folks through main/alt, or they're part of my team right, logging in just for the sake of logging and getting afk kicked isn't being active.

My main concern isn't exactly about lucario, but what the tier is becoming with it, people already complain that pory2 is very centralizing as a whole due to sheer bulk and offensive potential aswell. People also complain that in order to fully check PZ you need to pack 2 to 3 dedicated checks (through ghost types + steel types and whatnot), yet there's little to no voice from the TC around them, or why they're inclined to keep them and now they drop this bomb, which Havsha already went through the trouble of providing a multitude of calcs regarding as to why he'll be a huge meta threat.

edit: although funny enough, it feels like lucario, can provide a check to either of them. Granted it's still a speed tie to PZ and that he can't come in ever even on tri attack without losing upwards of 82% hp (if modest specs), if it's specs or LO but still arguably able to check/pressure on entry.

 

Edited by razimove
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14 hours ago, Munya said:

New season, 4.36 to move both ways.

 

Before I say anything, nothing is ever final in these things until the actual tier changes thread is made, everything is subject to change.

 

Up to OU:

Heracross

 

Down to UU

Aerodactyl

Lucario

 

Down to NU

Alakzam

Lanturn

 


We are also have a discussion/vote on Porygon2 in UU, and Dugtrio in NU, among anything else that may have arisen needing discussion.  If you have anything to add to anything, now is the time.

And about weavile that only go to Over Used by Luck in season 4(don't passed by any suspect test, don't have much usage in OU and have 7% in UU in season 4), when he are close to fall to Never Used by usage, and in Season 5 have less than 6% usage Average in OU(Only counting 2021-07, 2021-08 and 2021-09). He don't fall to UU?

 

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For those who didn't understand Weavile's confusion: In season 4, Weavile wasn't going through Suspect Test. What did it mean? That the Weavile could only go up or down by Usage. However, on Over Used, the Weavile had 4% use, the same use as Lucario, which just hadn't fallen tier because at the time it was UUBL(Under Used Ban List)
And on Under Used, Weavile had disastrous usage, in 2021-06, 7% usage, which meant that the chance of weavile dropping to Never Used was high. However, thanks to what we call in Brazil the Turning Table, Weavile not only escaped from falling to Never Used but also rose to Over Used without further explanation. And apparently even with the ridiculous usage of it in Over Used(4% for TWO MONTHS), they don't want to lower it tier. Simple.

Translated to PT-BR:

Para aqueles que não entenderam a treta da weavile: Na season 4, Weavile não estava passando por Suspect Test,então só poderia ser promovida ou rebaixada de tier por usagem. Porem, em OU, weavile teve mais ou menos 4% de usagem, quase a mesma do Lucario, que só não tinha caido pra Under Used ainda porque na epoca era Under Used Ban List(UUBL), o que fazia lucario nunca ser rebaixado pra Under Used mesmo com 0,05% de usagem em Over Used.
E em Under Used, tambem não tava boa. Weavile tava com 7% de usagem, e os noobs... Digo, "veteranos" do chat competitivo do pokemmo, dizem que pra um pokemon ser usavel em uma tier, tem que ter 6% de usagem nela(Inclusive usaram isso como argumento pra defender o ban da King's Rock, uma vez que o counter dos leads de King's Rock tinha 4% de usagem). Então mais uma season de queda de usagem e weavile teria sido REBAIXADA pra Never Used, porem graças a uma virada de mesa, tiraram weavile de ser rebaixada e promoveram a mesma pra Over Used ainda. O pior: mesmo com a usagem media de weavile abaixo de 6%(4% por 2 meses consecutivos), não querem volta-la pra Under Used e pronto.
 

"Ah,mas Tiering não é decidido por ser viavel ou não". é sim. Quando alegam que o pokemon não é boa escolha pra tier por baixa usagem, dizem diretamente que o pokemon não é bom pra tier e tá na tier por sorte, como foi o caso de lucario. Usagem baixa atras de usagem baixa, mas por ser Under Used Ban List, não era rebaixado nunca. Então quando digo "Quase a mesma usagem que lucario", quero dizer que o pokemon tem a usagem tão baixa quanto a de um pokemon que só pertence a OU por ser banida da UU, e que se não fosse por esse detalhe, já teria caido de tier. (Literalmente tá numa tier por sorte.)
"Ah, mas se tiver mais que 4,36% de usagem, é viavel e pertence a tier". Ai contradiz com o argumento usado para sugerir o ban da King's Rock, que disseram como argumento: Se o pokemon(No caso, o counter possivel a king's rock) tem 4% de usagem, não serve e ta na OU por sorte, tem que ter 6% usagem pra ser viavel e tar numa tier.

Edited by caioxlive13
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8 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

For those who didn't understand Weavile's confusion: In season 4, Weavile wasn't going through Suspect Test. What did it mean? That the Weavile could only go up or down by Usage. However, on Over Used, the Weavile had 4% use, the same use as Lucario, which just hadn't fallen tier because at the time it was UUBL(Under Used Ban List)
And on Under Used, Weavile had disastrous usage, in 2021-06, 7% usage, which meant that the chance of weavile dropping to Never Used was high. However, thanks to what we call in Brazil the Turning Table, Weavile not only escaped from falling to Never Used but also rose to Over Used without further explanation. And apparently even with the ridiculous usage of it in Over Used(4% for TWO MONTHS), they don't want to lower it tier. Simple.

are u a superhero

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Hace 3 horas, caioxlive13 dijo:

Paraaquellosque no entendieron la confusión de Weavile: En la temporada 4, Weavile no estaba pasando por la Prueba de Sospechoso. ¿Qué significó? Que el Weavile solo podía subir o bajar por Usage. Sin embargo, en Over Used, el Weavile tenía un 4% de uso, el mismo uso que Lucario,que simplemente no había caído de nivel porque en ese momento era UUBL (Lista de Prohibición Bajo Usada)
Y en Under Used, Weavile tuvo un uso desastroso, en 2021-06, un uso del 7%, lo que significó que la probabilidad de que weavile cayera a Never Used era alta. Sin embargo, gracias a lo que llamamos en Brasil la Turning Table (Virada de Mesa), Weavile no solo escapó de caer a Never Used, sino quetambién se elevó a Over Used sin más explicaciones. Y aparentemente incluso con el ridículo uso de él en Sobre Usado (4 % durante DOS MESES), no quieren bajarlo de nivel. Simple.

He went up to Ou because that season he had more than 4.36% Use in OU

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So the answer for p2 is a steel type that can take advantage of it while said steel type absolutely rolls over the whole tier.

 

With heracross leaving (which is the only fighting type that can risk switching into defensive p2 sets imo) one would have seen that the clear answer to this change is moving p2 up to bl1 and not dropping another bl pokemon..

 

Whatever though, one more reason to never log in again, having people that have no idea of the meta and the tiers, making the decisions about them.. Im sure they will enjoy NOT playing them, as they do all this time

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9 hours ago, Wallarro said:

He went up to Ou because that season he had more than 4.36% Use in OU

According to "Veterans" of competitive chat in Pokemmo discord, to a mon being usable in one tier, he needs at least 6% usage in the same. You sayed 4,36%, that are lower than 6%.
And in season 4 Under Used, the weavile had 7% use, 1% of being in the percentage not recommended for use in competitive, so it could very well lower it tier

In short: In season 4, weavile was supposed to be relegated to Never Used, but thanks to a completely pointless decision by the Tier Council, weavile avoid being relegated to Never Used and are been Promoted to Over Used, after all in that season on Over Used, I repeat, Weavile had almost the same usage as lucario, that as it was Under Used Ban List (UUBL), it hadn't been downgraded from tier yet

Edited by caioxlive13
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57 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

According to "Veterans" of competitive chat in Pokemmo discord, to a mon being usable in one tier, he needs at least 6% usage in the same. You sayed 4,36%, that are lower than 6%.
And in season 4 Under Used, the weavile had 7% use, 1% of being in the percentage not recommended for use in competitive, so it could very well lower it tier

In short: In season 4, weavile was supposed to be relegated to Never Used, but thanks to a completely pointless decision by the Tier Council, weavile avoid being relegated to Never Used and are been Promoted to Over Used, after all in that season on Over Used, I repeat, Weavile had almost the same usage as lucario, that as it was Under Used Ban List (UUBL), it hadn't been downgraded from tier yet

4,36% is the cutoff point. It's written under 'How do usage statistics factor into tiering?' 

 

Edit: Also Weavile had more than 4,36% usage in OU last season and that's why it is OU now. 

Edited by Gruul
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22 minutes ago, Gruul said:

4,36% is the cutoff point. It's written under 'How do usage statistics factor into tiering?' 

 

Edit: Also Weavile had more than 4,36% usage in OU last season and that's why it is OU now. 

Really, i don't understand the eople that discuss about pvp.
 

Now it says that 4.36% usage, is viable, is Over Used, but a few weeks ago they were literally claiming that pokemon with less than 6% usage in a tier, is useless in it, and using that as an argument to defend the ban of King's Rock. I think they promoted weavile to OU, for those who use wall in UU not to complain that they're losing to many flinchs of Weavile Beat Up(Once time that call the strategy "OP" and any novice want to test him in pvp), in a way that doesn't displease those who use one, avoiding future complaints.

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22 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Now for the rest of you all knowing "community-players" who obviously know what decisions should be made, I have to remind you that the TC is quite active (cough cough Zebra... Tyrone... cough) and now have an activity requirement. Just because some of us don't partake in a "time-suck, poor-timing, bad-prize, not-worth-it" system like tournaments doesn't mean we aren't involved in the game. Lucario was voted on several months ago and determined to be a worthwhile test, our arguments are well laid out in prior threads so please review those for our discussion and opinion.

 

Now I do feel you all for how slow tier changes occur, this is just a manifest of our game. Matchmaking has certainly allowed us to have more data faster and make better decisions, but it doesn't change the fact that all of these decision are incredibly difficult and often times mixed. Just look at your community discussions for example, where there is a lot of variety in opinion. That is often reflected in the TC, which is honestly good, because we don't want a lopsided system.

 

Anyhoos, I'm sorry y'all don't feel heard, but for those of you who want immediate decisions and try to find every reason to complain, I lack sympathy for you. The TC has been elected by a tyrannical system and we make the decisions, but of course with reading through your many comments and responses = )

We actually do know which decisions should not be made. Because, well, we play the game. Not like most of you, who used to play the game.

 

TC is quite active? All due respect JJ, last time I saw Zeb being actually active was like 4-5 years ago. Blueboi despite being a good friend of mine doesn't play either, same for Tyrone who isn't doing any comp. While I don't blame them as my own activity is on a decline due to unreasonable decisions, lack of interesting updates and general situation of the game, TC just has to consist of people who know what they are dealing with and they don't just theorymon. I don't have much insight about yourself as I don't have you on friendlist but I do see you in tours or MM (and as a side note, I hugely appreciate the fact that you actually communicate with us), Stelian, Pachi, MK and Lunarck are active, logging in daily, usually go quite far in tours and know what they are doing, so this makes 5/8 TC members who actually are actively logging in if I count yourself.

 

Spoiler

(And there's Munya who has no clue what he's doing but at least we got good memes out of that)

 

I like the activity requirement, however I feel that this will quickly turn TC upside down- not like this will change much though.

 

 

About the slow tier changes- honestly, it's not the slow changes that are irritating us the most, but the decisions themselves and the fact that they are being made by people who do not even play the game. We were very vocal when it came to Lucario dropping to UU and if you would read the discussion, you'd see that majority of players (and we are talking about players who actually play the game a lot, not 400 elo novice trainers) was absolutely against this move, myself include, yet you as TC decide to drop Lucario to UU, despite our strong voice of disagreement.

 

Slow changes are another thing but not the one that is most irritating. The only suspect test thread we received was for PZ in March (!!) and even then, TC didn't participate in discussion aside from you and Pachi. We didn't get a suspect test for Dugtrio which was being discussed very actively, Pory2 which appears problematic as well isn't being discussed either.

 

It seems like whatever we do or say is completely irrelevant and you don't care at all about what people who play more and are more experienced have to say and do the same thing devs do- unreasonable decisions which drive us away from playing this game competitively.

 

 

Also randbats ftw.

Edited by RysPicz
I can no into maths
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21 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Really, i don't understand the eople that discuss about pvp.
 

Now it says that 4.36% usage, is viable, is Over Used, but a few weeks ago they were literally claiming that pokemon with less than 6% usage in a tier, is useless in it, and using that as an argument to defend the ban of King's Rock. I think they promoted weavile to OU, for those who use wall in UU not to complain that they're losing to many flinchs of Weavile Beat Up(Once time that call the strategy "OP" and any novice want to test him in pvp), in a way that doesn't displease those who use one, avoiding future complaints.

Tiering isn't about being viable or not, it is decided by usage.

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On 9/27/2021 at 1:15 PM, Gruul said:

4,36% is the cutoff point. It's written under 'How do usage statistics factor into tiering?' 

 

Edit: Also Weavile had more than 4,36% usage in OU last season and that's why it is OU now. 

When i say "almost same use than lucario", i want to say: weavile has the same usage than a pokemon that only because is Under Used Ban List, don't are relegated to Under Used.

 

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16 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

When i say "almost same use than lucario", i want to say: weavile has the same usage than a pokemon that only because is Under Used Ban List, don't are relegated to Under Used.

 

The usage of Weavile in UU last season doesn't matter. It had more than 4,36% usage in OU that season and that is all that mattered for it to go up to OU. And Lucario just made enough usage to stay in OU. Neither of these mons had been on any banlist that season nor are they at the moment. Weavile is OU by usage and will stay there because 6,76% of people use it there. Atm Lucario has less than 4,36% usage and that's why it will go down.

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17 hours ago, Gruul said:

The usage of Weavile in UU last season doesn't matter. It had more than 4,36% usage in OU that season and that is all that mattered for it to go up to OU. And Lucario just made enough usage to stay in OU. Neither of these mons had been on any banlist that season nor are they at the moment. Weavile is OU by usage and will stay there because 6,76% of people use it there. Atm Lucario has less than 4,36% usage and that's why it will go down.

After lucario has been banned from Under Used, he doesn't returned to UU even with our usage lower than 4,36%, for more than 6 months.

the same to Roserade. Lower usages in Under Used and still banned from Never Used.

 

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30 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

After lucario has been banned from Under Used, he doesn't returned to UU even with our usage lower than 4,36%, for more than 6 months.

the same to Roserade. Lower usages in Under Used and still banned from Never Used.

 

I don't want to repeat myself for Lucario (a season lasts 3 months btw and Lucario had 4,39% usage at the end of last season which makes it a OU until October). 

As for Roserade usage in UU: 7,95% in April, 8,40% in May, 8,46% in June, 7,36% in July, 6,68% in August, 7,21% atm. Not a SINGLE time under 4,36%, as Gbwead already stated: Roserade is UU by usage and that's where it belongs by usage, not because one might feel it would fit into NU. Hope this explanation was helpful.

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  • Munya unfeatured this topic
On 9/28/2021 at 6:02 PM, Gruul said:

The usage of Weavile in UU last season doesn't matter. It had more than 4,36% usage in OU that season and that is all that mattered for it to go up to OU. And Lucario just made enough usage to stay in OU. Neither of these mons had been on any banlist that season nor are they at the moment. Weavile is OU by usage and will stay there because 6,76% of people use it there. Atm Lucario has less than 4,36% usage and that's why it will go down.

Lucario Still UUBL(Under Used Ban List) and are in Under Used ONLY by suspect test, and probablly return to Over Used before season 6 ends. Anything that have almost the same use than lucario, literally is in a tier by Luck, since lucario is UUBL and are in Over Used by Luck, even with our ridiculous usage. My point is Relegate Weavile to Under used and only because he are promoted up by luck, block promotion(Even weavile get a high usage in Over Used, for one season he can't be Promoted, and wait the end of next season to go up) of him. The prrof of weavile goes up from tier by luck is Metagross. Metagross have almost the same usage than lucario, with little % for less and only this season he are promoted to Over Used.

 

 

 

Other Topic is: Linnone are Relegated from Under Used Directly to Untiered, and when it go up to Never Used(Only for Effect Dex)? i understand that the mechanics of Sword and Shield nerfed In a Pinch Berries, but in my opinion, i think is good leave linnone at least one season in Never used, instead of relegate him to Untiered Directly.

 

Edited by caioxlive13
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22 hours ago, Gruul said:

I don't want to repeat myself for Lucario (a season lasts 3 months btw and Lucario had 4,39% usage at the end of last season which makes it a OU until October). 

As for Roserade usage in UU: 7,95% in April, 8,40% in May, 8,46% in June, 7,36% in July, 6,68% in August, 7,21% atm. Not a SINGLE time under 4,36%, as Gbwead already stated: Roserade is UU by usage and that's where it belongs by usage, not because one might feel it would fit into NU. Hope this explanation was helpful.

Just FYI. Don't bother trying to discuss anything with the caio dude. He lives in a different world, does not know how tiering works and refuses to even try to understand.

 

 

Other than that, really glad that Dugtrio is gone from NU. Not fond of Lucario but I'll probably try giving it a test at least, although I'm fairly sure it's broken. Anyone already used/ played against it?

Edited by RysPicz
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22 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Just FYI. Don't bother trying to discuss anything with the caio dude. He lives in a different world, does not know how tiering works and refuses to even try to understand.

 

 

Other than that, really glad that Dugtrio is gone from NU. Not fond of Lucario but I'll probably try giving it a test at least, although I'm fairly sure it's broken. Anyone already used/ played against it?

I ran a bunch of matches overnight with both physical and special life orb sets. Both have outstanding wallbreaking, with special being a little better. Special has a tough time sweeping with Crobat and Yanmega resisting vacuum wave, thus physical is a little better. Didn't run into Slowbro but a few Dusclops, so would still prefer Crunch over Ice Punch. 

 

Only played against one and the opponent was quite bad, I fainted it with a Krook before it did anything. No signs of screens + Lucario yet. 

 

Matches were typically pretty fast paced and I felt a lot of pressure on my Porygon2, although it did tend to live forever or at least be one of my last mons in the couple matches I lost. 

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