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October-Movement Discussion Thread


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New season, 4.36 to move both ways.

 

Before I say anything, nothing is ever final in these things until the actual tier changes thread is made, everything is subject to change.

 

Up to OU:

Heracross

 

Down to UU

Aerodactyl

Lucario

 

Down to NU

Alakzam

Lanturn

 


We are also have a discussion/vote on Porygon2 in UU, and Dugtrio in NU, among anything else that may have arisen needing discussion.  If you have anything to add to anything, now is the time.

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Alakazam to NU? This is a visual bug and you mean NUBL right...

 

 

P2 + P-Z + Luc in UU will make the tier an absolute shit show, dropping more broken stuff to keep broken stuff in check is not good.

 

Luc might be fine without P2 and P-z though. But guess we won't ever find out..

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What about without just P2.

 

Also, this literally does not matter its just a dex update for the tier and doesn't change what is useable but.

Up to NU Down to Untiered
Slowking
Serperior
Miltank Stoutland
Altaria Bronzor
Magmortar  
Hitmonchan  
Omastar  
   
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I'll repeat my comments about Alakazam moving down to NU:

 

On first glance, they share similar stats to Espeon, which can already be a troublesome Pokemon in the tier (life orb set can deal serious damage to a lot of Pokemon with its varied coverage moves, but does get pressured by Sucker Punch and/or Pursuit Absol and Houndoom)

 

(The following Pokemon are both 3x31 2x30 with 6 HP, 252 SP ATK, 252 SPEED and Timid nature)

 

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Alakazam also has access to a wider movepool compared to Espeon, for example Focus Blast, which can deal with Pokemon like Steelix, Escavalier and Clefable which Espeon was unable to.

 

If people provide me with 'Dugtrio' as the answer to dealing with Alakazam, it then emphasises mine and other people's statement that this Pokemon has had a negative influence in the tier and is deemed too unhealthy.

 

My other question follows to this - why would Alakazam be allowed in the tier when Roserade is likely to still be banned? 

 

------

 

I've expressed my desire already to ban Dugtrio from NU, and I can agree with people's points about P2 being banned in UU - however if Porygon2 is banned then I also propose that Porygon-Z is banned as well (Porygon-Z completely changed the meta shift more than Porygon2 with more Bronzongs, Gigaliths, Empoleons, Porygon2s, Spiritombs and Mismagius)

 

With Heracross moving up to OU, we're going to be lacking in fighting types bar Medicham - having said that, I think it's pretty obvious to say why Lucario going down will be too broken for UU and would propose an insta ban or at the minimum a suspect test for the first month.

 

My final statement emphasises this question - why is Roserade still banned if Alakazam will be allowed to drop down? I would either ban both or keep them both.

Edited by Imperial
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Genuinely wasn’t sure how I felt about Lucario so I’m running some calcs: [I got distracted and this took me longer than I had anticipated so I haven't included Sp Set, yet alone the challenge of not knowing what set Luc you are up against

*This is contingent on Lucario being able to get +2, lots of mons that it can set up on can hit it with super effective moves that won’t necessarily kill it, but will damage it to the point that LO recoil can become an issue.

Physical Set:

Tanks/Walls:

Spoiler

Bronzong: Not really a solution to Lucario, after one SD the physical set breaks through it, if its not LO Luc, then bronz can revenge with eq after a CC.

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 294-347 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 262-310 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Dusclops: Can live both +2 Crunch/+2 MM, but can’t really punish beyond dealing a little chip with night shade, burning it with wisp, or hazing the SD. Not a sure fire solution but its something I guess.

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 136-161 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 161-192 (56.6 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Arcanine: Defensive set cant beat it once its set up, but offensive set can outspeed and revenge kill it.

Spoiler

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 282-333 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 182-214 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Crobat: Crobat isn’t a great solution since whilst it does out speed dealing between 60-85% depending on EV spread, +2 LO Luc will have a chance to bop it with an espeed, especially if its not max hp, or damaged prior.

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Crobat: 407-480 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Crobat: 242-285 (64.7 - 76.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Forretress: Needs forre to be pretty much full for it to work, it’s a trade at best.

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 257-304 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Forretress Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Gligar: So close, yet so far away. Ice punch just bops it.

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 157-187 (47 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 342-404 (121.7 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 354-421 (105.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Swampert: Bopped
Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 351-413 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Donphan: Needs to be just about full to beat it, without any reliable recovery it comes off a little short

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 286-339 (74.4 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Torkoal: Bopped

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 261-308 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Gastrodon: Bopped

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 415-489 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Spiritomb: Needs to be full, can’t even kill in response, but can at least burn with wisp

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 231-274 (76.2 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Spiritomb Psychic vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 120-142 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

Druddigon: Bopped, but 1000000% recoil with rough skin and helm

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 351-413 (98 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Slowbro: Honestly, it kinda works, especially with Rocky Helm + LO chipping Luc to hell and back

Spoiler

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 260-306 (92.5 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO              

Offensive Revenge killers vs Espeed in next popst Soon TM

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Revenge Killers:

 

Arcanine - See above Post

Crobat - No rocks, may require trade for LO chip / CC stat drops

Spoiler

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 204-241 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 307-363 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Azumarill: I stand by banded azu, may require a trade for that cc stat drop/lo damage

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 243-286 (71 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 240-283 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

 

Scarf Medi: Nope 

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 256-302 (98 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Flygon: Needs to be full

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Staraptor: Needs to be full or without rocks

Spoiler

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 201-238 (64.6 - 76.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mismagius: Considering LO recoil, and CC -1 SpDef, it’s a decent answer, unless luc is running bullet punch

Spoiler

248 SpA Life Orb Mismagius Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

248 SpA Life Orb Mismagius Hidden Power Fire vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Mismagius: 226-266 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Yanmega: Only without rocks and after Lucs used a CC or taken LO recoil

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 229-270 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 339-399 (120.6 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 226-267 (80.4 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rotom Heat: Needs to be Scarfed and no Stealth Rocks

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Heat: 190-224 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 488-576 (173.6 - 204.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sigilyph: Needs to be full or perhaps some variant ev spread I dunno

Spoiler

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sigilyph: 242-285 (84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 218-257 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 307-361 (109.2 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Durant:

Spoiler

Durant: Just so long as hustle doesn’t decide otherwise

 

On a side note this is just the physical SD set, Lucario can run sooo many possible sets, that just off my first impression it feels a tad overwhelming to deal with after seeing how much 1 sd can let it do. However, it does suffer from 4mss but I dont think thats enough to stop it being scary

Edited by Havsha
Fixed English uwu I hope this is semi comprehendable
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2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

These stalwarts crying hard. Viva la change. Is a meta after all.

 

If Lucario or Zam are just outright broken, they'll be removed in due time but you have to give them due process.

Why is Roserade still banned from NU?

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8 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

These stalwarts crying hard. Viva la change. Is a meta after all.

Well its not just stall that suffers from things like Luc and Zam, other playstyles becomes less viable too, Im not saying it will be the case that  Luc is so busted that its going to be considered uber offense, but if it is, its not just *sigh* stalwarts that will suffer.

 

10 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

If Lucario or Zam are just outright broken, they'll be removed in due time but you have to give them due process.

True enough, not an issue at all if you dont actively play the tiers, but for the people that do it could be a month or so of frustration and nuisance. (Perhaps more, as even if its busted the usage may not be super high for alternative reasons, or the TC can do TC things)

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38 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

These stalwarts crying hard. Viva la change. Is a meta after all.

 

Our TC members ladies and gentlemen! Trying to create a fair and fun meta for every style right? 😄 

 

38 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

If Lucario or Zam are just outright broken, they'll be removed in due time but you have to give them due process.

Uh no, "due time" is several months lmao. Because of how stupid the tiering and banning system is we will have to endure a full season of an unplayable tier (probably longer) because there's a policy of not banning within a season.

 

Some examples of broken shit staying in a tier for a very long time ( can't give exact times for all since I don't remember but its at least 3 months for some 9 months for others):

 

  • SD Garchomp
  • Draco Hydrei
  • NU Durant
  • NU Venomoth
  • NU Roserade
  • UU Porygon2
  • UU Haxorus
  • UU Porygon-Z
  • NU Dugtrio

 

 

And some others which I will have forgotten.

 

 

So yeah, it isn't a problem for you dead TC members who don't touch the game. But for those who play regularly and enjoy this game 3 - 9 months of an unplayable tier will be a problem.

Edited by Lvkee
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1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Estos incondicionales lloran mucho. Viva la change. Es un meta después de todo.

 

Si Lucario o Zam están rotos por completo, se eliminarán a su debido tiempo, pero debe darles el debido proceso.

Not because the meta is forced to change does it mean that they will make it chaos, it does not even take a suspect to realize how chaotic it will be in the UU, that's why they vote for the quick ban, something that the tc should do, even so the members of the tc said that it is not broken and that it deserves a suspect, despite the fact that the active community has already given their opinion about fucking that it will be this in the level, not to mention that for a suspect it lasts months and we will probably have to smoke about 3 -9 months to finally give an opinion, good thing, anyway the comment of people who have not played actively for years is worth more than those who have been actively playing the current meta.

Edited by Huargensy
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