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Rache

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22 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

not sure how randoms works but my primeape just outsped a flygon, is this an error? or are speed stats not accounted for with the level balancing? 

Primeape is lv81, giving it a speed stat of 201. Flygon is lv77, giving it 199. To make this easier to figure out mid-battle, possible speed stats are displayed in a tooltip.

image.png.f49bc3a6144ca256bbde83b58b0cdbfe.png

If something can carry a move that reduces its speed like Slowbro which can carry Trick Room, both possibilities are also shown. Choice Scarf and other speed modifying items aren't included though, so you'll still need to figure those out yourself.

Edited by Rache
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4 minutes ago, Rache said:

Primeape is lv81, giving it a speed stat of 201. Flygon is lv77, giving it 199. To make this easier to figure out mid-battle, possible speed stats are displayed in a tooltip.

image.png.f49bc3a6144ca256bbde83b58b0cdbfe.png

If something can carry a move that reduces its speed like Slowbro which can carry Trick Room, both possibilities are also shown. Choice Scarf and other speed modifying items aren't included though, so you'll still need to figure those out yourself.

yeah i understand that but i just assumed that speed tiers would still be relative to normal battles. thanks

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On 9/26/2021 at 5:27 PM, Rache said:

Primeape is lv81, giving it a speed stat of 201. Flygon is lv77, giving it 199. To make this easier to figure out mid-battle, possible speed stats are displayed in a tooltip.

image.png.f49bc3a6144ca256bbde83b58b0cdbfe.png

If something can carry a move that reduces its speed like Slowbro which can carry Trick Room, both possibilities are also shown. Choice Scarf and other speed modifying items aren't included though, so you'll still need to figure those out yourself.

Damn, how did I not see this. Feelsbad

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Randoms levels have been updated.

 

The winrates were odd this month with most of the best performing Pokemon being lv83s that were generally decent, as getting two that weren't bad meant that you weren't getting anything awful. To account for this, the criteria I'm using to adjust levels this time are more lenient towards them if they'd be leveling down. The specifics are:

  • 54%+ overall species winrate + is lv83 to level down
  • 52%+ overall species winrate + is not lv83 to level down
  • 48%- overall species winrate to level up

 

And to make sure extremely threatening outliers aren't overlooked due to their worse performing builds:

  • 55%+ individual build winrate + is lv83 to level species down
  • 54%+ individual build winrate + is not lv83 to level species down

 

Next month shouldn't require level-specific cutoffs as actually good Pokemon will no longer be excluded based on their level. The only species you'll be prevented from having more than two of are the ones expected to under-perform, the lv84s and lv100s.

 

Here's the complete list of changes.

Spoiler

Leveling down:

Pokemon that performed too well.

 

Gengar 75 > 74
Gyarados 75 > 74
Dragonite 75 > 74
Scizor 75 > 74
Skarmory 75 > 74
Alakazam 77 > 76
Snorlax 77 > 76
Heracross 77 > 76
Porygon2 77 > 76
Swampert 77 > 76
Metagross 77 > 76
Venusaur 79 > 78
Clefable 79 > 78
Feraligatr 79 > 78
Espeon 79 > 78
Piloswine 79 > 78
Sceptile 79 > 78
Charizard 80 > 79
Poliwrath 80 > 79
Hitmonchan 80 > 79
Scyther 80 > 79
Omastar 80 > 79
Miltank 80 > 79
Slaking 80 > 79
Machamp 81 > 80
Dodrio 81 > 80
Tauros 81 > 80
Misdreavus 81 > 80
Swellow 81 > 80
Linoone 81 > 80
Gardevoir 81 > 80

Electabuzz 82 > 81
Pidgeot 83 > 82
Raticate 83 > 82
Arbok 83 > 82
Sandslash 83 > 82
Vileplume 83 > 82
Golduck 83 > 82
Muk 83 > 82
Seadra 83 > 82
Meganium 83 > 82
Xatu 83 > 82
Ampharos 83 > 82
Bellossom 83 > 82
Politoed 83 > 82
Jumpluff 83 > 82
Granbull 83 > 82
Sneasel 83 > 82

Masquerain 83 > 82
Whiscash 83 > 82
Relicanth 83 > 82

 

 

Leveling up:

Pokemon that performed poorly.


Chansey 75 > 76
Kabutops 75 > 76
Aerodactyl 75 > 76
Blissey 75 > 76
Breloom 75 > 76
Electrode 77 > 78
Exeggutor 77 > 78
Torkoal 77 > 78
Pikachu 79 > 80
Dugtrio 79 > 80
Butterfree 81 > 82
Beedrill 83 > 84
Wigglytuff 83 > 84
Farfetch'd 83 > 84
Dewgong 83 > 84
Lickitung 83 > 84
Furret 83 > 84
Ledian 83 > 84
Ariados 83 > 84
Sunflora 83 > 84
Corsola 83 > 84
Delibird 83 > 84
Smeargle 83 > 84
Mightyena 83 > 84
Beautifly 83 > 84
Exploud 83 > 84
Delcatty 83 > 84
Sableye 83 > 84
Volbeat 83 > 84
Illumise 83 > 84
Spinda 83 > 84
Castform 83 > 84
Kecleon 83 > 84
Tropius 83 > 84
Luvdisc 83 > 84

There were a lot of movements this time, but it's to be expected with how new the format is. As time goes on, most should settle into levels that appropriately balance them against each other.

 

For those who were curious,

Scyther was the best performing species with a 55.01% winrate. This was followed by Whiscash, Relicanth, Ampharos, Seadra, Sneasel, Meganium, Masquerain, Qwilfish, and Sandslash.

 

The best performing individual build was Scyther's bulky Swords Dance set with a 58.44% winrate.

 

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Rands made me wanna kill myself many times but I still greatly appreciate the effort of implementing it xD Thanks. Would be good if we could avoid 3 screeners in the same team or those pp stall battles I had because both teams are relying on wish pass and other strategies with no clear wincondition

Another thing I could note is about the leading mon. It would be much less frustrating if you could get a pokemon that has a decent leading set as your lead (such as a pokemon with hazard OR a choice item OR a momentum option OR a sash OR sets like fake out that can beat potential opposing sashes)

Other than that, no complaints. And I don't think all of the NFEs were bad indeed

Edited by TohnR
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37 minutes ago, epicdavenport said:

Would boosting reward point gains or at least give a reduced amount for losses be a consideration? Rewards being behind the rng of your team feels bad, especially for 10000 points.

Looking at the win/loss ratios on the leaderboard compared to OU, I'm not sure that this is really necessary. The better players seem to be doing similarly well whether they're building their own teams or taking advantage of what's given to them. There are some games you lose purely on matchup, but most games are pretty quick to make up for it.

 

On 10/2/2021 at 7:47 AM, TohnR said:

Would be good if we could avoid 3 screeners in the same team or those pp stall battles I had because both teams are relying on wish pass and other strategies with no clear wincondition

 

Limiting dual screens to 1/team is something we're considering for a future update, it seems to be a common complaint. Understandably so since it's a pretty common set here unlike Showdown's format (afaik).

 

On 10/2/2021 at 7:47 AM, TohnR said:

Another thing I could note is about the leading mon. It would be much less frustrating if you could get a pokemon that has a decent leading set as your lead (such as a pokemon with hazard OR a choice item OR a momentum option OR a sash OR sets like fake out that can beat potential opposing sashes)

I'm not sure that this is good honestly, it's significantly less random.

 

From what I can tell, Showdown doesn't rig leads based on their moves, it only overrides the item slot to sash if the mon is frail. With a few exceptions, all items there are rolled based on certain criteria rather than being build-specific, so it makes a lot of sense there and doesn't reveal anything it shouldn't. With the build-specific way it's handled here though, I'd rather just make sash more common in general if it doesn't seem like there's enough of it, but this would be build-specific too as many have their items chosen for a reason and would be made a lot worse if they were given Sash instead.

 

With moves and items being specifically tied to the different builds, shuffling "lead" sets to the front takes away the surprise value of that Pokemon when a lot of the time it could be running something completely different. If you didn't get a "lead" set on your team at all, it can give away the set of something that can potentially pull one before it's done anything too. In general it seems like it would make it a lot harder to bluff in a format partially designed around it.

 

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about Showdown's handling of it, my experience with it is extremely limited. In general though, I don't think this works well with the way the sets are constructed here. What does or doesn't end up at the front of the party gives a lot away when set and item are always linked and certain things only appear on certain builds of each Pokemon.

 

Edited by Rache
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Any chance of equalling out tiers? or at least having a check to see if there's some form of balance involved, 5 games in a row where I've had 5 NU/Untiered mons and my opponent has at least 1 OU, usually 2 OU or 1OU, 1 UU.  Not fun at all when it keeps happening.

 

As for actually broken stuff rather than balancing issues, future sight choice band and sucker punch choice band don't mix together well at all, maybe if trick was in the moveset but in both situations it wasn't.

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On 10/9/2021 at 7:43 PM, atlewis said:

Any chance of equalling out tiers? or at least having a check to see if there's some form of balance involved, 5 games in a row where I've had 5 NU/Untiered mons and my opponent has at least 1 OU, usually 2 OU or 1OU, 1 UU.  Not fun at all when it keeps happening.

 

Levels are different to compensate that. Lower tier pokemon have artificially higher stats through a higher level !

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First time I discover this thread, so nice. 

 

The point of randoms is to be surprised and everything, and to get rekt by a pokemon you can't do anything against. I've come to accept that. But I think there are many setup pokemons that are just too good to be revealed as lead. I've had several matches where Zangoose/Cloyster/Magmar straight up 6-0 teams because the opponent lead couldn't do anything to prevent setup and nothing could revenge kill. I feel like players could at least try to prevent such sweeps by expecting threats like these during the game and putting rocks and setting their own mon or whatsoever, even though most of the time you're screwed anyways. So maybe remove them from leading list ? It's just not fun to basically get a loss without playing (or to get a win). Idk maybe it's minor issues. 

 

Having read the clauses and stuff in first post, I just wanted to point out I've had chansey/blissey in same team once. Idk if it happens with others same species mons that can overlap in random roster and idk if it is intentional. 

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On 10/14/2021 at 6:43 AM, Poufilou said:

First time I discover this thread, so nice. 

 

The point of randoms is to be surprised and everything, and to get rekt by a pokemon you can't do anything against. I've come to accept that. But I think there are many setup pokemons that are just too good to be revealed as lead. I've had several matches where Zangoose/Cloyster/Magmar straight up 6-0 teams because the opponent lead couldn't do anything to prevent setup and nothing could revenge kill. I feel like players could at least try to prevent such sweeps by expecting threats like these during the game and putting rocks and setting their own mon or whatsoever, even though most of the time you're screwed anyways. So maybe remove them from leading list ? It's just not fun to basically get a loss without playing (or to get a win). Idk maybe it's minor issues. 

 

Having read the clauses and stuff in first post, I just wanted to point out I've had chansey/blissey in same team once. Idk if it happens with others same species mons that can overlap in random roster and idk if it is intentional. 

A lot of Pokemon can pull setup moves and almost all of them can also have sets that don't include them, whether they're in the lead slot after a change like this is very revealing about what they're carrying. At this stage I don't think it's a big enough problem to be worth the drawbacks of addressing it via team rigging/shuffling, but the next build update will include the possibility of Focus Sash on a lot more builds, hopefully that makes turn 1 setup more manageable.

 

Chansey and Blissey are different species, it's intentional that you can get both, just as you can use both on an OU team.

 

On 10/9/2021 at 11:43 AM, atlewis said:

Any chance of equalling out tiers? or at least having a check to see if there's some form of balance involved, 5 games in a row where I've had 5 NU/Untiered mons and my opponent has at least 1 OU, usually 2 OU or 1OU, 1 UU.  Not fun at all when it keeps happening.

 

As for actually broken stuff rather than balancing issues, future sight choice band and sucker punch choice band don't mix together well at all, maybe if trick was in the moveset but in both situations it wasn't.

The different levels are intended to balance Pokemon in higher/lower tiers to compete fairly with each other. Due to this, there are currently 1 OU, 2 UU, 3 NU, and 4 Untiered in the top 10, the format seems to favor the combination of high levels and consistently solid sets for the species rankings at the moment. Levels are being tweaked based on winrate each month.

 

I'll take a look at the choiced sets, the inclusion of Sucker Punch / Future Sight without a way to remove the item sounds like an oversight, thanks.

Edited by Rache
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1 minute ago, Riesz said:

I once gotten a Pokemon with Natural Gift which failed upon use.

The only Pokemon that can carry Natural Gift are Fearow and Banette, and these builds are locked into berries that produce desirable typings for it. If the Pokemon eats the berry before it uses the move though, it fails.

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Quote

The current meta is experimental, and as such it's going to have problems. It's likely to go through a lot of revisions before it's reasonably balanced, and that's what this thread is for.

I managed to make it to #96, so tbh, change literally nothing.  I'm eating this tier up like shoen jump main characters go through ramen. 

All jokes aside though, it does really suck when I get a team that's 4/6 weak to stealth rocks and no Defog users.  Other than that though, whoever engineered the randoms tier needs to work on more of the game.  That shit dank

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

I think randoms could be a kind of testing ground for PvP, to test anything that can be addition for PvP and if are unbalanced, know it before implemented in OU(And some players take advantage from him until get banned).
Like, already put the Hidden Abilities to see if they will unbalance or not, of course it would have mechanics like:
- Hidden Abilitys Ubers, such as Speed Boost + Blaziken, would be banned.
- No team would have more than 2 Hidden Ability(Can be applied to Over Used when Hidden Ability goes out for general use)
- At randoms, 2 levels would be deducted from pokemons with Hidden Abilitys that can make it go one tier above, 3 levels for Hiddens that can make it go two tiers above and 5 for Hidden Abilitys that can make it go three tiers above (With a Trigger for the level not less than 72 in any case.), releving only PokéMMO tiers(OU, UU, NU and Untiered/PU), if want to take tier info from Smogon.

Edited by caioxlive13
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Movements occurred a bit later this month, but are as follows:

 

Leveling DOWN:

Species that won more than 52% of their games or had individual builds that won more than 54%.

Spoiler

Aerodactyl
Alakazam
Ampharos
Armaldo
Bellossom
Blaziken
Charizard
Cloyster
Crobat
Dodrio
Electabuzz
Espeon
Gardevoir
Gengar
Golbat
Heracross
Hitmonchan
Huntail
Jolteon
Jumpluff
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Linoone
Lunatone
Machamp
Magmar
Medicham
Metagross
Miltank
Misdreavus
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Ninjask
Omastar
Piloswine
Pinsir
Poliwrath
Porygon2
Qwilfish
Relicanth
Rhydon
Salamence
Sceptile
Scizor
Scyther
Skarmory
Slaking
Snorlax
Swampert
Swellow
Tauros
Ursaring
Zangoose

Leveling UP:

Species that won fewer than 48% of their games.

Spoiler

Ariados

Banette

Beautifly

Beedrill

Blissey

Butterfree

Castform

Corsola

Delcatty

Delibird

Exeggutor

Farfetch'd

Glalie

Illumise

Kecleon

Ledian

Luvdisc

Magcargo

Mawile

Mightyena

Minun

Nosepass

Parasect

Pikachu

Plusle
Sableye

Smeargle

Spinda

Sunflora

Tropius
Volbeat
Wigglytuff

The best performing builds for October were:

  • Stealth Rock Metagross (57.59%)
  • Guts Swellow (57.04%)
  • Belly Drum Linoone (56.90%).

 

Plusle gaining a level wouldn't have happened if it had won a single extra game. It won 11056/23035 of its matches - while the client rounds this up to 48%, it's very slightly under.

Edited by Rache
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I think the code only checks for lvl84 and lvl100 instead of >=lvl84, because as it is shown in the screenshot, in this team I have  2 level 84 (Plusle and Licktung) and a Level 85 (Illumise).image.png.d524da7041707b10663531eb06b9d6d9.png

 

 

Also I think builds like Stockpile Rest Dewgong, Amnesia-Iron Defense Relicanth/Gorebyss, Amnesia-Coil Dunsparce are kind of not fun to play against. 

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5 hours ago, Bertolfoso said:

I think the code only checks for lvl84 and lvl100 instead of >=lvl84, because as it is shown in the screenshot, in this team I have  2 level 84 (Plusle and Licktung) and a Level 85 (Illumise).image.png.d524da7041707b10663531eb06b9d6d9.png

 

 

Also I think builds like Stockpile Rest Dewgong, Amnesia-Iron Defense Relicanth/Gorebyss, Amnesia-Coil Dunsparce are kind of not fun to play against. 

Lv85 is now the highest/worst non-100 level, 84 no longer excludes itself as those species performed well enough last month to avoid leveling up. This is intentional.

 

The Relicanth and Gorebyss builds you're referring to have no recovery outside of Leftovers, the Dewgong is capped at +3, and the Dunsparce boosts its damage output, much like the Cosmic Power + Stored Power sets. I don't think these builds are problematic enough to warrant removal like the ones previously removed (because they were passive enough that the match was likely to end with Struggle), but if enough people believe that these ones make the format worse, I'm open to adjustments.

Edited by Rache
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于2021/11/12 PM9点49分,Rache 说:

Lv85现在是最高/最差的非100水平,84不再排除自身,因为这些物种上个月表现良好,无法避免升级。这是故意的。

 

你所指的Relicanth和Gorebyss建造的除了剩菜之外没有恢复,Dewgong的上限是 + 3,Dunsparce提高了它的伤害输出,很像宇宙力量 + 存储的能量集。我不认为这些构建有足够的问题,可以像以前删除的构建一样值得删除 (因为它们足够被动,以至于比赛可能会以挣扎结束),但是如果有足够多的人相信这些会让格式变得更糟,我愿意接受调整。

Is cm short of people?i wish....

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On 11/12/2021 at 2:49 PM, Rache said:

Lv85 is now the highest/worst non-100 level, 84 no longer excludes itself as those species performed well enough last month to avoid leveling up. This is intentional.

 

The Relicanth and Gorebyss builds you're referring to have no recovery outside of Leftovers, the Dewgong is capped at +3, and the Dunsparce boosts its damage output, much like the Cosmic Power + Stored Power sets. I don't think these builds are problematic enough to warrant removal like the ones previously removed (because they were passive enough that the match was likely to end with Struggle), but if enough people believe that these ones make the format worse, I'm open to adjustments.

I have the same feelings as Bertolfoso. There seem to be an overwhelming amount of gimmicky sets, usually monoattacking, that are totally not fun (such as a wish/ protect/ heal bell/ lava plume flareon or iron defense, amnesia, scald, ice beam gorebyss) and are usually a completely wasted slot in the team. It's surely much more fun to have usable sets on both sides.

 

Also, I'm starting to get a little concerned about belly drum users in general. Anyone else has such a feeling, that they are very often completely dominating and after just a belly drum, unstoppable?

 

I was wondering why on randbats there's only one mon with Belly Drum (Linoone) in it's set, guess I might've figured it out.

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