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September-Movement Discussion Thread


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Talking about which characteristics make p2 a banworthy mon is a waste of time. Its a mix of all and thats what makes it banworthy. 

It restricts a whole stylw by itself, its really really bulky, its drawbacks like toxic and hazards are pretty easy to be dealth with(cleric and defogger) and on top of it all its weak to only one type. Fighting type pokemons cant even switch into it freely to pressure it cause it hurts and is able to cripple them.

As i had stated months ago, this pokemon is too much for the tier. It can do too much at once and restricts teambuilding and playstyles. 

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35 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

Talking about which characteristics make p2 a banworthy mon is a waste of time. Its a mix of all and thats what makes it banworthy. 

It restricts a whole stylw by itself, its really really bulky, its drawbacks like toxic and hazards are pretty easy to be dealth with(cleric and defogger) and on top of it all its weak to only one type. Fighting type pokemons cant even switch into it freely to pressure it cause it hurts and is able to cripple them.

As i had stated months ago, this pokemon is too much for the tier. It can do too much at once and restricts teambuilding and playstyles. 

So, I agree, most fighting types cant switch into it (especially if you dont know if its modest, or defensive) however there are still plenty switch ins that can handle it, such as gigailth/snorlax/more.

My main issue with this argument is that you say its a mixture of all the p2 sets that make it too much, and whist it is a very versatile pokemon, as I had suggested in my previous post, Ive found that the same answers can be used for each set, making it versatility less impactful. [so for example, snorlax or gigalith can come in on any p2 set, and pressure it out, punishing it for staying in/teleport or can benefit from the free turn by getting up rocks, or a curse.]

Its drawbacks can be dealt with sure, they can also just as easily be reestablished.

Am I missing a way in which p2 is restricting the meta, beyond making you run something with good spdef?

Genuinely asking, like I suppose it does makes offensive switches much harder, but I dont feel like its forcing us to play defensive builds all together

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On 9/1/2021 at 10:41 PM, Havsha said:

So, I agree, most fighting types cant switch into it (especially if you dont know if its modest, or defensive) however there are still plenty switch ins that can handle it, such as gigailth/snorlax/more.

My main issue with this argument is that you say its a mixture of all the p2 sets that make it too much, and whist it is a very versatile pokemon, as I had suggested in my previous post, Ive found that the same answers can be used for each set, making it versatility less impactful. [so for example, snorlax or gigalith can come in on any p2 set, and pressure it out, punishing it for staying in/teleport or can benefit from the free turn by getting up rocks, or a curse.]

Its drawbacks can be dealt with sure, they can also just as easily be reestablished.

Am I missing a way in which p2 is restricting the meta, beyond making you run something with good spdef?

Genuinely asking, like I suppose it does makes offensive switches much harder, but I dont feel like its forcing us to play defensive builds all together

The issue isnt the defensive switch ins it has, if it was a bulky powerhouse in addition to not having any switch ins at all we wouldnt be having a discussion, it would have been banned already.

 

The pokemons you mention are generally good for more defensive or balanced playstyles and they are used to stop the biggest special attacking threats either way. As i said it restricts teambuilding, you will either use it to stop said threats and pressure offense very easily or you will use its checks which also check special threats AND porygon2 itself.

 

You end up in a meta depending on toxicing and outlasting your opponent. A big portion of pokemons is left unused and unviable and generally you play a tier with very little versatility and creativity. 

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On 8/31/2021 at 8:49 PM, DoubleJ said:

Oh and Dugtrio uncompetitive. I'm all for a ban to BL2. It's presence in NU has shown an uncanny knack for really sucking the life out of teambuilding, especially as we see players learning to use it in unique ways (teleport, eject button, volt-turn, etc) to one click kill so many mons. 

Oh ? Didn't you say people who can't build against it are just bad ? Dang
Good to see people can change opinions tho

 

I agree with Gb about Arena Trap not being inherently a problem but the combination of 3 factors : Arena Trap AND Dugtrio AND NeverUsed being the issue, however totally banning AT wouldn't be weird either since it's not used anyways and cancer.

Edited by TohnR
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15 minutes ago, TohnR said:

Good to see people can change opinions tho

Okay, but thats the entire point of a discussion thread, for people to discuss, and come to a new opinion

 

15 minutes ago, TohnR said:

I agree with Gb about Arena Trap not being inherently a problem but the combination of 3 factors : Arena Trap AND Dugtrio AND NeverUsed being the issue, however totally banning AT wouldn't be weird either since it's not used anyways and cancer.

I'll agree it seems to be a combination of Duggy and Arena Trap, but limiting it further to just never used seems wrong to me, all the factors ive listed in my post are applicable to every tier, be it vs things like exadrill or a magnet in uu, or whatever, the benefits duggy provides to defensive builds in taking out a breaker without anyroom for counter play is inherent throughout each metagame. The core issue is that arena trap robs one of a crucial game mechanic (switching) This remains true in every tier. And whilst pokemon like trapinch and diglett can do that too, they come with their own drawbacks that help keep it balanced. Meanwhile Duggy brings considerable less drawbacks. Honestly, Im still not convinced that its actually a combination of Duggy and AT and just not AT, but its not a hill im going to die on

 

edit: whilst diglett and trapinch can trap, they cant punish, which is why they arent raising the same issues of concern

Edited by Havsha
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Yea @HavshaI may also share this opinion. But I'm more concerned about getting it ouf of NU, getting out DEFINITELY from every tier wouldn't bug me but I don't care as much ^^ 

 

EDIT : May I add considering the Chinese have taken over all the ladders top spots now, it would only be fair to have somebody represent them in the TC ? Given they represent at least 40% of the competitive scene. I see some known names from China were already against allowing Dug into NU back in January

Edited by TohnR
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TC please feel free to weigh in we'd love to hear yall input too, otherwise you're just gonna perpetuate the discontent the player base already has over how yall do things. Having TCs play MM and Tours is a great start, but transparency is just as important, because its feeling like we've been "discussing" into the void each month

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@TohnR players that can't find ways to work around Dugtrio may just be bad, but after further review it really does limit the tier, thus unhealthy, and is incredibly easy to spam, thus uncompetitive. Ban ban ban. 

 

@Havsha We have tried to recruit a Chinese rep, no luck. 

 

Regarding Arena Trap, a ban on this would effectively be a complex ban which we really don't consider unless the pokemon is considered "uber" meaning too good for OU. Arena Trap itself is really only hindering NU, the lowest tier, and also LC (trapinch and diglett), a nonexistent tier. So it's meh. 

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Bueno, ya recibimos respuesta al tema de p2 por parte del tc, ahora, ¿no nos responderán aunque dugtrio termine quedándose o al menos se hará un sospechoso? I only see assumptions and small comments but I do not know if they will decide in the end or not

Edited by Huargensy
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1 minute ago, Huargensy said:

Well, we already received a response to the issue of p2 from the tc, now, will they not answer us even if dugtrio ends up staying or at least a suspect will be made?

There will be a formal vote at the end of the month, so nobody knows its fate(also true for P2). The previous vote the month before last for it was split though.  Not really a lot to say about it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

A good prayer

Can the devs add a clause where if a opposing Pokemon is disabled by Cursed Body, the person with the Cursed Body mon cannot set up for 3 turns? I feel like that's a fairly simple way to balance this.

 

 

 

 

 

for the record i'm being sarcastic

Edited by suigin
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Can there be some form of TC discord created where we can actively engage with the TC members? Sort of fed up of having to hear 1 member comment about something, radio silence for weeks then Munya saying "we're discussing it soontm" it doesn't really seem like a good system.. Nor do we have any idea what is going to happen, while it seems like any input from players outside of TC is just ignored..

 

Not to mention many dead members hide behind this very private TC method. And now an ex TC member (a very active and currently successful one at that) has came forward speaking out on their incompetence.  And when you're in control of our tiers, we should at least be able to see if these guys are competent - or just living in the past and doing guess work. 

 

Right now it's pretty much players theorying in our own player created discord, it would be a lot better to have an open dialogue with quicker response time with the tier council members. Maybe even a sub-section to the official one would work. Just some food for thought. It has been very frustrating for a long time basically talking to a wall about issues in competitive. 

 

I'd also like to add onto this that it's sort of unofficially been stated that there's been a change in how the tiering works, why is there no official announcement on this? Why do the competitive playerbase (a pretty large chunk of this game) have 0 idea on how the official logistics of competitive tiering works anymore? It has been left up to speculation. And from what I have heard many tier council members don't even properly know. Where is the clarity? @Munya @Kyu@Squirtle

Edited by Lvkee
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What exactly has changed or what do you think has changed, ask and I'll clarify cause afaik nothing has.  Also thats what these thread are for, discourse on the subject of what is currently going on in the competitive scene.  The stuff said here is very much carried over into the discord, and vice versa.  This month, when the thread goes up, we intend on discussing p2 & dug in their respective tiers.  But these threads(and the requests threads) are always open for discussion at all times even beyond that.

 

As for activity, I have already stated, in this very thread I am fairly sure, as well as to every tc member, who have known it for a few months now, the requirement in participating in the competitive scene, that begins in the new season in like, 2 weeks or whatever, there will be no hiding behind some invisible wall with inactivity. 

 

Right right we did change the number of votes needed to ban something from a majority to a supermajority.  And we prefer to do these bans at the beginning of a new season rather than the last month of a season where movement cutoffs are smaller and they influence tiers to a greater degree, possibly in a negative way if a ban ends up being bad.

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1 minute ago, ThinkNicer said:

Madara's post was clean and polite. So you can just add 'don't say stuff we don't want you to say'.

It wasn't, it also broke the TC agreement every member that signs up agrees to when they agree to join the TC. That said, drop the madara topic, if you want to discuss policy, I'm all ears.

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1 minute ago, Munya said:

What exactly has changed or what do you think has changed, ask and I'll clarify cause afaik nothing has.

Ever since the introduction of Sinnoh there has been an unofficial rework of how banning works, it has been stated sometimes in threads or referenced but it has NEVER been officially stated and cleared the air being outlayed with what are the exact current tiering policies. 

 

image.thumb.png.29570fe4ff0c2020bce01ff100143c28.png

 

As seen here, both of these threads are currently listed as the active rules.

 

 

image.thumb.png.17be749eae817bcc6d4db18dc3620256.png

 

This doesn't happen, if it did Hydreigon, Wobbu, Garchomp would all be in ubers tier. We need an mapped out detailed version of what the hell the current tiering system is, it's currently nerfs right? Why? And why does it not state this. What is the competitive benefit of not banning Pokemon and just pulling 50 complex bans out of your guys ass to keep broken stuff in tiers. Which overcomplicates stuff for not only new players, but old players alike.

 

There is a distinct lack of knowledge from the players side on what the hell is going on nowadays in pvp and I feel we deserve some explanations. Yes in the past the dev team has been fucked over by admins and mods leaking stuff, which has forced them to be in some kind of goth-like teenage rebellious state where they moap around and are completely closed off not revealing absolutely anything. We are not trying to fuck over the dev team, we simply want to know what the future of the game we have poured way too much time and effort into is.

 

14 minutes ago, Munya said:

Also thats what these thread are for, discourse on the subject of what is currently going on in the competitive scene.

I am telling you now for a fact these threads do not create enough communication and something needs to change, a TC discord would solve this problem. As I stated before 1-2 posts from an odd TC member and you saying "We are looking at it" is not really giving us much clarity.

 

16 minutes ago, Munya said:

The stuff said here is very much carried over into the discord, and vice versa. 

This is great and all, but we don't see this. The inactive players could be amazing at theorying and arguing but we don't see it, so all we see is dead players who never publicly comment, haven't played in years and we are supposed to rely on these guys to be creating a healthy and fun environment for tiers..? Do you not see the problem here..

 

18 minutes ago, Munya said:

This month, when the thread goes up, we intend on discussing p2 & dug in their respective tiers.  But these threads(and the requests threads) are always open for discussion at all times even beyond that.

Why was it not openly discussed when the issue was first raised nearly a month ago by a TC member? I only saw 2 members publicly comment about it. Except another post which was removed because it said stuff which you didn't like in it.

 

19 minutes ago, Munya said:

As for activity, I have already stated, in this very thread I am fairly sure, as well as to every tc member, who have known it for a few months now, the requirement in participating in the competitive scene, that begins in the new season in like, 2 weeks or whatever, there will be no hiding behind some invisible wall with inactivity. 

This is good to hear I am glad something is finally being done about this, but the point still remains about the lack of communication in the public eye.

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