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Can I get community to share their inputs (respectfully) about P2? 

I've been running ladder for the past few days, and across all tiers this Pokemon is probably the only one (Apart from Dugtrio) that may warrant a discussion.

I don't want to elaborate much for now, but I'll just write a starting point:

First it is a mon that is terribly hard to switch into with an offensive team thanks to its coverage options, an already solid special attack and access to download. Not only that but its gargantuan defenses allow it to pretty much switch against anything that doesn't pack a stabbed and powerful Fighting move. This by itself may not be considered banworthy but there is something I realized upon spectating plenty of late rounds tournaments in UU: A lot, and I mean a lot, of teams are actually awfully built and weak to a lot of common stuff, except P2 is there to fix all those flaws without any major drawback whatsoever and I don't believe that is a good thing. 

In sum, P2 is way way too good not to be used in bulkier teams, and even a really viable option to serve as a pivot in more offensive ones. Is it too good for UU? I am not so sure yet, although by experience I can state it is really really a pressuring point in any battle that shouldn't be considering its absurd bulk capabilities, as well as deciding games in its own commonly once the enemy runs out of their Fighting mons (Which isn't hard to do since the tier has plenty of options of those) or if they simply do not possess them.

Feel free to add into this.

Spoiler

Dugtrio should be still banned 

 

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In my opinion, porygon2 is simply a very good pokemon. That's it. Strong and versatile, but not too much. It is true that it can do a lot of stuff, but it can't do everything at once. I had written something on the august thread so i dont feel like writing this again (unless asked to).

 

Spoiler

Ban arena trap

 

Edited by Bertolfoso
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Perhaps this is going to be a controversial take, but I don’t think Porygon2 is even the best at what it does, the only major benefit I see in running P2 over other UU mons is its versatility, but it has consistent weaknesses throughout each of its sets. Toxic (Puts it on a timer, self-explanatory), Trick (Without eviolite, it’s a lot less threatening defensively, and if it’s locked into a single move, even easier for mons to take advantage of it with set up), Strong STAB/Super Effective hits to keep it low (Watch 90% of my previous WC games, I take P2 down to 20-30% with a banded hit (and survive the +1 tri-attack), and then apply pressure to prevent recover, and applying pressure is fairly easy with how much pivoting is available in UU atm. Before people come after me, I know this isn’t a great solution, it often results in a trade).

Spoiler

But ignoring that, there are numerous UU mons that 1v1 P2 without issue and can walk out healthy and useful to the team, such as Gigalith(even without rest Gigalith can take advantage of p2 for free rocks, a decently strong hit on whatever is coming in, or punish it for staying in with toxic. It deals with mons like Rotom, Sigi, etc a lot better than P2 too, with access to a strong stab rock blast to break through subs and stuff.), Dusclops (Taunt, Toxic, tad slower to be a go to answer but none the less it will do this job fairly well, and can usually punish teleport with either a toxic, taunt(to prevent it) and punishes hard switches with wow or tox), Spiritomb (I’d only comfortably suggest the CM set for this, since it can set up vs p2 and pressures its resources with pressure, though if you want to ran banded you can still trick it and cripple it like that), Snorlax (I mean yeah, sets up, can be a strong hitter, if p2 tries tp out its risking bslam para, or hell you can get away running non-set up with tox or something to punish it more/things coming in. Scrafty (Bulk Up set, takes a big chunk from +1 Modest Tri Attack, but with shed skin rest/drain punch you’re fine [+1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scrafty: 64-76 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery] Mismagius (I haven’t really tested yet, but it sounds like fun on paper, with access to both CM and Nplot, ghost type preventing tri-attack stab all together, Trick, Toxic) And bunch more but I’m too lazy to do anymore.

Notice that 90% of those pokemon fit just about any team build, so it’s not like P2 is punishing you for bringing them. Also, it’s not like bringing a strong Fighting mon in UU is in anyway difficult, we have Heracross, Medicham, Hitmonchan, Machamp, and probably more viable options I'm too dumb to think of.

P2 has the advantage of being able to run numerous sets, but if I really stop to think about it, I usually run the same mons to handle each set. Moves like Toxic, Trick as mentioned above are crippling to P2. I don’t think Modest makes it too dangerous for mons like Gigalith, Dusclops, etc, nor do I think it tanking a move like a Swamperts EQ a lot easier is necessarily a big deal, you’ll quickly learn what set it is, and not make stupid plays accordingly, but the answer of just putting it on a timer, or trying to cripple it are still the same.

 

Tl;Dr P2 is good, but eh, I don’t think its necessarily better than the numerous other UU Pokemon we have. The best answers for one P2 Set tend to work for them all. (Toxic, Trick)

 

Also ban arena trap

. It's not a competitive ability, never has been really

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20 hours ago, pachima said:

 A lot, and I mean a lot, of teams are actually awfully built and weak to a lot of common stuff, except P2 is there to fix all those flaws without any major drawback whatsoever and I don't believe that is a good thing. 

This seems like a bit of a yarn. You can't really pick out the corner piece of a team and say "if this pokemon wasn't there this team would be terrible", because the team is built around that pokemon existing, if P2 wasn't there the team would be different. 

 

Not to say it might not be centralizing etc.  

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On 8/28/2021 at 11:27 AM, pachima said:

Can I get community to share their inputs (respectfully) about P2? 

I've been running ladder for the past few days, and across all tiers this Pokemon is probably the only one (Apart from Dugtrio) that may warrant a discussion.

I don't want to elaborate much for now, but I'll just write a starting point:

First it is a mon that is terribly hard to switch into with an offensive team thanks to its coverage options, an already solid special attack and access to download. Not only that but its gargantuan defenses allow it to pretty much switch against anything that doesn't pack a stabbed and powerful Fighting move. This by itself may not be considered banworthy but there is something I realized upon spectating plenty of late rounds tournaments in UU: A lot, and I mean a lot, of teams are actually awfully built and weak to a lot of common stuff, except P2 is there to fix all those flaws without any major drawback whatsoever and I don't believe that is a good thing. 

In sum, P2 is way way too good not to be used in bulkier teams, and even a really viable option to serve as a pivot in more offensive ones. Is it too good for UU? I am not so sure yet, although by experience I can state it is really really a pressuring point in any battle that shouldn't be considering its absurd bulk capabilities, as well as deciding games in its own commonly once the enemy runs out of their Fighting mons (Which isn't hard to do since the tier has plenty of options of those) or if they simply do not possess them.

Feel free to add into this.

  Reveal hidden contents

Dugtrio should be still banned 

 

Maybe read the past two discussion threads and the talk about p2 like half a year ago in uu viability discord. Its all still valid, nothing has changed..

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Nothing is moving this month but TC has been instructed to pay extra attention to the porygon issue this month, so hopefully going into the next season we will have a verdict on it.

 

Also starting in the new season TC members will be required to play matchmaking/tournaments, whichever suits their needs.

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Dead TC player revival I love it. Viva la LYLE.

 

Oh and Dugtrio uncompetitive. I'm all for a ban to BL2. It's presence in NU has shown an uncanny knack for really sucking the life out of teambuilding, especially as we see players learning to use it in unique ways (teleport, eject button, volt-turn, etc) to one click kill so many mons. 

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2 hours ago, Munya said:

Also starting in the new season TC members will be required to play matchmaking/tournaments, whichever suits their needs.

This is good. Also, you should consider taking back gbwead, even his mistake, no one is more experienced in pvp than him and dedicated to the proper functioning of tiers in this game. With him, all main topics were debates with all players.

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The last time I read about p2 they wanted to ban him more for being a defensive uber, but is he really? Not carrying leftovers makes him even weaker to receive residual damage, hazards make him after a couple of innings be at the mercy of certain blows that he walled before, the state is another that makes him unusable, and sand too, if Well, it is something that most already know, it is not necessary to emphasize it, even in addition to that, some of those who are supposed to walk can still pivot it as it would be the yanmega u turn or the rotom volt switch that with rocks would only be eating damage, this last being able to disable it more with trick, even so, the damage done by and wall is very mediocre in certain cases, being able to configure in it (Bisharp, venomoth, swampert, spiritomb, mismagius cm, etc) Now if I want to emphasize what In my opinion this is what you should suspect about pory2, the pory2 sweeper has the same physical bulk that a calm one could have, being able to solve the issue of the little damage it receives and being able to punish some things that could previously intoxicate it or "Put up with it "Being able to weaken many sweepers and complicate team offense more, that was said once when I talked about this, besides that boosting the esp attack (which is not bad, it is actually a good base stat) is very easy to get into some walls that just don't touch it, bronz / donphan
/ vaporeon etc. Now that I saw that they will make a suspect, I think they should focus more on that, in any case if they have to ban it for it, do not make a suspect by banning it and + download, complex prohibitions seem garbage, if they are going to Ban some set or something of this, do it completely, I only said this because in my opinion, they are looking for the side where it is not, and I would prefer that they make the most problematic more suspect

Psdt: Thanks to the TC for at least taking the trouble to suspect this issue and show importance to the players, although I am not in favor of the ban, but the fact of listening to the player base and trying to suspect show at least a little bit of interest towards your position, on the other hand remove sand trap pls.

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30 minutes ago, Havsha said:

I would love to hear the TC members reason for why Arena Trap isn't problematic, so if thats already been stated somewhere can someone link it to me?

I'm not a TC member, but I'll explain why I don't think it's possible to consider AT a problem.

We have 3 AT users in MMO: Diglett, Dugtrio and Trapinch. When Gen 5 came out, Dugtrio was quick banned (no teampreview + 100 base atk stat). During that time, Diglett and Trapinch were not played in OU, UU or NU. They were not played at all. When Dugtrio was unbanned, it ended up in OU for a while; during that time Diglett and Trapinch were still not played in UU and NU. Then Dugtrio moved down to UU; during that time Diglett and Trapinch were still not played in NU. What this means is that AT is hardly an abusable ability without the base stats and movepool to back it up. Diglett and Trapinch are clearly overwhelmingly unviable, unplayed and irrelevant. Therefore, Dugtrio might be a problem, but definetly not AT.

Edited by gbwead
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45 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I'm not a TC member, but I'll explain why I don't think it's possible to consider AT a problem.

We have 3 AT users in MMO: Diglett, Dugtrio and Trapinch. When Gen 5 came out, Dugtrio was quick banned (no teampreview + 100 base atk stat). During that time, Diglett and Trapinch were not played in OU, UU or NU. They were not played at all. When Dugtrio was unbanned, it ended up in OU for a while; during that time Diglett and Trapinch were still not played in UU and NU. Then Dugtrio moved down to UU; during that time Diglett and Trapinch were still not played in NU. What this means is that AT is hardly an abusable ability without the base stats and movepool to back it up. Diglett and Trapinch are clearly overwhelmingly unviable, unplayed and irrelevant. Therefore, Dugtrio might be a problem, but definetly not AT.

So, I guess its kinda bad faith of me wanting to try seperate arena trap from duggy in this discussion. (Although I strongly disagree with the notion that the problem might be dugtrio and not AT, I think its the otherway round, but that being said you can give a caterpie AT but at the end of the day its still a caterpie, an ability can still be problematic even if the pokemon with the ability cannot properly take advantage of it, same reason why shadow tag pre-nerf was so problematic.)

So my claim is that AT is problematic and uncompetitive. So I'll try lay out my reasons so yall can critique/help me understand the alternative position.

 

The reason I believe AT is abusable in spite of Dugtrios less than stellar atk is because it removes a core aspect of competitive play, namely switching, unlike magnet pull it isnt just a small subset of pokemon that has to worry about being trapped, its every pokemon.  This means that theres little to no counter-playing AT in game. With moves like Teleport, Volt/turn and items like eject button its not dificult for one to get dugtrio into such an advantageous position where it can trap a pokemon. 

tl;dr: Switching is a core mechanic that is taken away from the game without the ability to counter-play, without running a shed shell on just about everything.

 

Building and using pokemon that are vulnerble to AT is something that makes it problematic. In gen 7 an old Tapu Lele set was mind plate with CM, it was actually a great breaker, and most defensive teams would struggle versus it. Then, people would start bringing dugtrio, and in spite of the fact dugtrio could not reliably ohko it, because it was able to weaken lele to the point it could no longer be serve its roll. The same could be said about pokemon like Banded Hoopa-unbound who was severely limited by Duggy. This is just straight vs standard eq duggy with AT, but there are several other sets that can be run that would possible achieve this goal but easier. But, those are gen 7 examples, and not MMO, so let me see if I can provide some MMO examples. Magneton, with magnet pull (another trapping ability), a strong sp atk, decent speed tier, and a decent move pool, it is a real threat to many defensive teams. However, if magneton were to rise in usage to the same point lele had, defensive teams could simple throw in a dugtrio to their team, trapping it, and hard countering it, with little to no ways of counterplaying. Pokemon like houndoom, pikachu, raichu, etc all can be rendered pretty much worthless vs dugtrio. Meaning if any of these pokemon, or any pokemon like them, were to rise in usage/become a considerable pokemon to build around, defensive teams could simply say no<3, and stop them in their tracks with AT duggy.

tl;dr: AT Duggy gives defensive teams the ability to simply not care about a lot breakers that would otherwise open up a more diverse meta. Defensive builds that have little to no counter play its not a healthy metagame.

 

I don't think AT use is limited to just Defensive teams, since it can be utilised on HO with moves like memento, trapping bulkier mons/walls. (Although winning that 1v1 is obviously beneficial, its not necessary as you can often force the pokemon on a timer with toxic, lower its defences with screech so that it can be pursuit trapped, or Im sure a bunch of smarter ideas) This would open up for the HO threats such as bdrum linoone, to clean out next.

tl;dr: AT duggy place both Defensive teams and HO teams in situations in which they are impossible or very difficult to counter-play. A metagame in which counterplay is impossible or very difficult is not a healthy meta game.

 

So a lot of this is sounding like its possible dugtrio is the problem and not AT right? Afterall diglet and trapinch aren't going to be able to do these things. I dont think so, none of these uncompetive aspects can be achieved by a regular dugtrio without arena trap. But if arena trap was available on another viable pokemon such primeape or whatever, we would be running into the same problems. Just because of the limited nature of pokemon with the ability we are in the situation where we can take the arena trap out of the dugtrio but not the dugtrio out of the arena trap.

tl;dr Its not dugtrio its arena trap.

 

Right now the only reason I believe AT isnt being universally perceived as harmful to competitive play is because our community haven't learned how to correctly utilise it yet, we saw what happened when we learned how to use wobbufett correctly, its usage suddenly shot up, one particular team became super popular, and the TC had to do something about it. Right not I believe we are standing right before a situation where the same things happen with AT dugtrio. Because at the end of the day it wasnt wobbu that was the problem, it was shadow tag. At the end of the day its not dugtrio thats the problem, its Arena Trap

 

Edit: Here's a source that probably explains things better than I could ever: https://www.smogon.com/articles/ou-suspect-arena-trap

I know MMO and Smogon are very distinct metagames, however if the fundamental mechanic like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag is unhealthy in one it is more than likely that it will be fundamentally unhealthy in the other,

 

 

Edited by Havsha
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39 minutes ago, Havsha said:

So, I guess its kinda bad faith of me wanting to try seperate arena trap from duggy in this discussion. (Although I strongly disagree with the notion that the problem might be dugtrio and not AT, I think its the otherway round, but that being said you can give a caterpie AT but at the end of the day its still a caterpie, an ability can still be problematic even if the pokemon with the ability cannot properly take advantage of it, same reason why shadow tag pre-nerf was so problematic.)

So my claim is that AT is problematic and uncompetitive. So I'll try lay out my reasons so yall can critique/help me understand the alternative position.

I don't think anything is black or white when it comes to pokemon battling. Speed Boost Blaziken has been banned over and over for instance. We all know Blaziken is clearly not broken without Speed Boost and that other Speed Boost users are also not broken. It's the combination of Speed Boost + Blaziken that is the problem. It's pretty much the same thing with Arena Trap. Caterpie with AT is not broken. It's only (thus far) Dugtrio + AT that some people deem problematic. An ability by itself can't really be problematic, it's only when that ability is paired with the right pokemon that an issue may arise. If we give Wonder Guard to Spiritomb, it would make more sense to ban Spiritomb than banning Wonder Guard (which would result in Shedinja being banned as collateral dmg).

 

38 minutes ago, Havsha said:

Edit: Here's a source that probably explains things better than I could ever: https://www.smogon.com/articles/ou-suspect-arena-trap

I know MMO and Smogon are very distinct metagames, however if the fundamental mechanic like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag is unhealthy in one it is more than likely that it will be fundamentally unhealthy in the other,

"Lastly, while most of the pro-ban arguments revolved around the most common user of Arena Trap, Dugtrio, many users also agreed that it was Arena Trap that was at the heart of the problem instead of Dugtrio. On the Dugtrio suspect test ladder back in February, a number of players successfully used Diglett and to a lesser extent Trapinch to fulfill nearly the same role as Dugtrio on teams, showing that the ability is clearly overpowered on any user."

This is from the link you just posted. We are not in the same situation in PokeMMO. In the past 3 years, Diglett and Trapinch have not been used successfully to any extent. 

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7 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I don't think anything is black or white when it comes to pokemon battling. Speed Boost Blaziken has been banned over and over for instance. We all know Blaziken is clearly not broken without Speed Boost and that other Speed Boost users are also not broken. It's the combination of Speed Boost + Blaziken that is the problem. It's pretty much the same thing with Arena Trap. Caterpie with AT is not broken. It's only (thus far) Dugtrio + AT that some people deem problematic. An ability by itself can't really be problematic, it's only when that ability is paired with the right pokemon that an issue may arise. If we give Wonder Guard to Spiritomb, it would make more sense to ban Spiritomb than banning Wonder Guard (which would result in Shedinja being banned as collateral dmg).

 

"Lastly, while most of the pro-ban arguments revolved around the most common user of Arena Trap, Dugtrio, many users also agreed that it was Arena Trap that was at the heart of the problem instead of Dugtrio. On the Dugtrio suspect test ladder back in February, a number of players successfully used Diglett and to a lesser extent Trapinch to fulfill nearly the same role as Dugtrio on teams, showing that the ability is clearly overpowered on any user."

This is from the link you just posted. We are not in the same situation in PokeMMO. In the past 3 years, Diglett and Trapinch have not been used successfully to any extent. 

Okay, even if we can all agree that its the combination of both dugtrio and arena trap that is problematic, then surely the solution is to remove arena trap from dugtrio like sword dance was removed from garchomp, instead of just leaving the status quo? (I guess the devs gave up on LC, but the fact that arena trap was broken in LC too, I believe is just further indication that its a problematic ability)

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