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August-Movement Discussion Thread


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8 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

It's cancer everywhere and this is why we are targetting Arena Trap instead of Dugtrio. Maybe we're just too used to moving mons instead of banning/ nerfing abilities. Right now thanks to our incredibly competent, knowledgable and highly vocal TC (and I can't believe that the only person from them with balls to talk to us and discuss his opinions is JJ) any discussion is pointless because this cancer is supposed to stay in NU anyway. I guess we would need to start creating countless threads again like we did with king's rock to actually achieve some positive changes.

I'd also like to add that despite being a problem also in UU and OU, the bulk of Pokemon in NU is far less superior compared to the other tiers, meaning that Dugtrio affects the Pokemon and meta even more by being more likely to 1KO.

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9 minutes ago, Makarovs said:

its not. But last time you tried to nerf something (SD garchomp) where the problem was clearly in OU, it was also removed from doubles and PVE. So, to save work arguing about other tiers, we just need to focus on one since if a possible nerf happens, it will affect everything else.

I never tried to nerf Garchomp, I tried to get it banned. Nerfing a mon because it is arguably problematic in a lower tier is utterly idiotic and should never be considered. Imagine if we did that all the time. That would mean we would nerf Durant instead of banning it from NU which mean Durant would therefore suck in UU for no reason. We could also remove Extreme Speed from Lucario and just drop it in UU which would mean ruining Lucario for OU. This is just messed up and wrong. People really need to stop entertaining these kind of options.

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Dugtrio is just good in his role as Revenge Killer, and to be Honest, I don't see any problem with him, whether in NU, UU or OU, his role is always the same, of course his talent is not competitive, but the ban in NU will not change much at the tier, and then ban a Pokemon that has already been Nerf ... 

for a Pokemon Overrated like him which does not stay maximun 3 turns during a game , it might be time to find out about the teambuild around and against him.

 

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22 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I never tried to nerf Garchomp, I tried to get it banned. Nerfing a mon because it is arguably problematic in a lower tier is utterly idiotic and should never be considered. Imagine if we did that all the time. That would mean we would nerf Durant instead of banning it from NU which mean Durant would therefore suck in UU for no reason. We could also remove Extreme Speed from Lucario and just drop it in UU which would mean ruining Lucario for OU. This is just messed up and wrong. People really need to stop entertaining these kind of options.

I'm not getting into the discussion of whether a nerf is good or bad. What I said was that when the nerf happened, it affected formats that had nothing to do with overused, like Doubles and PVE. Asking for a ban/nerf from dugtrio on neverused doesn't mean he's ok in other tiers, it's just the tier he's in at the moment, and where players see problems the most.

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42 minutes ago, Redalie said:

 

Dugtrio is just good in his role as Revenge Killer, and to be Honest, I don't see any problem with him, whether in NU, UU or OU, his role is always the same, of course his talent is not competitive, but the ban in NU will not change much at the tier, and then ban a Pokemon that has already been Nerf ... 

for a Pokemon Overrated like him which does not stay maximun 3 turns during a game , it might be time to find out about the teambuild around and against him.

 

I cannot agree with this. Dugtrio is not only a revenge killer- it's an uncompetitive mon that is capable of removing multiple pokemons in the tier, without them being able to KO back in return. For example, it can freely switch into Nidoqueen as it does not have the tools to KO it during the switch and simply KO it (or severely damage, making it unusable). It's often ran in U-turn/ Volt switch teams and if played well, it can remove other mons.

 

The bolded part is what bothers me the most. The teambuild is the problem- Dugtrio's presence in the tier alone renders multiple pokemon sets (and pokemon themselves) unusable or much less viable as they are not able to perform to their fullest with that pokemon just being around with it's ability.

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33 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

I cannot agree with this. Dugtrio is not only a revenge killer- it's an uncompetitive mon that is capable of removing multiple pokemons in the tier, without them being able to KO back in return. For example, it can freely switch into Nidoqueen as it does not have the tools to KO it during the switch and simply KO it (or severely damage, making it unusable). It's often ran in U-turn/ Volt switch teams and if played well, it can remove other mons.

 

The bolded part is what bothers me the most. The teambuild is the problem- Dugtrio's presence in the tier alone renders multiple pokemon sets (and pokemon themselves) unusable or much less viable as they are not able to perform to their fullest with that pokemon just being around with it's ability.

 so if Arena Trap are the real problem , I don't see why the ban in NU would change anything, it is exactly the same in the other tiers

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26 minutes ago, Redalie said:

 so if Arena Trap are the real problem , I don't see why the ban in NU would change anything, it is exactly the same in the other tiers

Inco explained this really well:

2 hours ago, Imperial said:

I'd also like to add that despite being a problem also in UU and OU, the bulk of Pokemon in NU is far less superior compared to the other tiers, meaning that Dugtrio affects the Pokemon and meta even more by being more likely to 1KO.

 

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yo all, well before you start you have to know that I did not count argued or defend the why I am against the ban of dugtrio and arena trap, because from my point of view it's a joke to want to ban such an average pokemon....

but I see that many of you are traumatized by the terrible dugtrio!

 

what we can see concerning dugtrio, last month he had a 50% win rate, which is absolutely not incredible, so by this figure we can understand that the players manage to cope with it

 

at the level of the pokemon stat, it has a good speed, and the rest? nothing, it does not tank anything so it cannot come easily on the ground, for that it was played 72% of the time with a sash,

 

he can not even ohko a drapion with his stab if he is not band, and he can not switch against drapion if he is band, and if he is sash he does not ohko not drapion, this is only an example simple..

 

some talk about ban arena trap, but without arena trap dugtrio becoming a totally useless pokemon ban arena trap is making an average pokemon useless and unplayable...

 

some say olala dugtrio makes pokemon unplayable, but it's just that you played the top third, dugtrio and weak against stall too much, but is not insane against offense, because many pokemon can set this up easily vs dugtrio, even a little sell smash omastar vs dugtrio if the dugtrio is sash (72% of the time)
if the dugtrio and cb and he just killed one of your pokemon with his stab you can set up one (mantine and charizard for example) you can also generally easily set up vs dugtrio with liligant, ferraligatueur, eelctross, samurot, bibarel and many others

 

there is also the argument dugtrio is not healthy, but how and by what, if a specific mechanic bothers you, it's just that you are closed in mind, why a dugtrio is less healthy than 'a drapion which little killed these counter with crit 50% of the time? the drapion which kills are counter little potencielment 6-0 a team, the dugtrio little trap a pokemon, not 6-0 all alone a team he helps like a support nothing more

 

last incredible thing, the terrible dugtrio loses the 1vs1 against electric type, he loses vs pickachu (bulff + extreme speed) he loses vs rottom specter, he loses vs elektross, if you played manetric scarf he cannot come on you either easily it will be a 50-50 between volt switch or not, can not also come free on stunfisk because do not ohko

 

There are surely other example arguments that I could give you but I think that is enough, because by complaining you have not really given good arguments to ban the terrible dugtrio

 

 

 
 
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Pc is to be repaired so I have restricted time discussing this thing. (Sorry discord)

Anyway, allow me to address the super average Pokemon that singlehandedly pushed most offensive stuff in NU down while pretty much shifting the whole tier to a more defensive and stagnant one, all by itself, or most of it anyway. As a comparison note, before dugtrio dropped, NU was known as a Yolo tier, where there were so many possible threatening matchups that lead to an incredible offensive tier. Now 7 out of the 10 most common pokes are defensive, and the few offensive that survived, or can survive, are either wallbreakers (because the meta shifted defensively) or Pokemon that simply care little about the trio of terror. Note I am not saying thatpre-dugtrio NU was a good tier, cause it was not, but goes to show just how relevant and ever-present in building this Pokemon is, screaming to me, at the very least, terribly centralizing. 

(For my beloved gbwead, Dugtrio should be problematic in every tier. But, as stated, since NU is generally much less bulky, as well as having less priority, simply makes Dugtrio slightly more problematic here than in the other tiers)

 

Also thank you Madara for your input. Let me explain my point of view regarding it and why I believe it is not right. (No offense, I actually respect you being the only who dared to bring your opinions in the other side of the spectrum)

4 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

yo all, well before you start you have to know that I did not count argued or defend the why I am against the ban of dugtrio and arena trap, because from my point of view it's a joke to want to ban such an average pokemon....

but I see that many of you are traumatized by the terrible dugtrio!

 

what we can see concerning dugtrio, last month he had a 50% win rate, which is absolutely not incredible, so by this figure we can understand that the players manage to cope with it

- Winrate is irrelevant to unhealthiness. I don't know how many times we need to bring this up. It is nothing more than a contributing factor that may or may not be decisive.

 

at the level of the pokemon stat, it has a good speed, and the rest? nothing, it does not tank anything so it cannot come easily on the ground, for that it was played 72% of the time with a sash,

- First you are severely undermining dugtrio's bulkiness, since for example, it is able to eat an Ice beam from nidoqueen. Second you are overmining (if thats a word) the ability to take EQs from offensive stuff. And third, u-turn, volt switch and teleport exist.

 

he can not even ohko a drapion with his stab if he is not band, and he can not switch against drapion if he is band, and if he is sash he does not ohko not drapion, this is only an example simple..

- Yes, a simple example in a simple game, where every Pokemon is either dead or 100% alive, and where there exists no chipping or hazards or whatever. Pokemon is simply not that game sorry.

 

some talk about ban arena trap, but without arena trap dugtrio becoming a totally useless pokemon ban arena trap is making an average pokemon useless and unplayable...

- wtf? how is this relevant. At all.

 

some say olala dugtrio makes pokemon unplayable, but it's just that you played the top third, dugtrio and weak against stall too much, but is not insane against offense, because many pokemon can set this up easily vs dugtrio, even a little sell smash omastar vs dugtrio if the dugtrio is sash (72% of the time)
if the dugtrio and cb and he just killed one of your pokemon with his stab you can set up one (mantine and charizard for example) you can also generally easily set up vs dugtrio with liligant, ferraligatueur, eelctross, samurot, bibarel and many others

- So we should not play the top third Pokemon if we want to deal with a supposedly non-problematic Pokemon? Sounds not problematic at all. Charizard? Lilligant? Samurott? Bibarel? I guess Tyranitar in gen3 wasn't that much of an issue cause hitmontop existed in NU then. (I won't even discuss the Omastar. AT ALL! 

Spoiler

Unless you are using Max attack Spike Cannon Omastar to break the Sash at +2

Spoiler

Which still dies for Sucker Punch.

 

 

there is also the argument dugtrio is not healthy, but how and by what, if a specific mechanic bothers you, it's just that you are closed in mind, why a dugtrio is less healthy than 'a drapion which little killed these counter with crit 50% of the time? the drapion which kills are counter little potencielment 6-0 a team, the dugtrio little trap a pokemon, not 6-0 all alone a team he helps like a support nothing more

- Let me explain you two things: First, Drapion's role is to wallbreak. Second Dugtrio's role is to support the rest of the team by removing threats they struggle to handle. Comparing them is like comparing Carrots with a submarine.

 

last incredible thing, the terrible dugtrio loses the 1vs1 against electric type, he loses vs pickachu (bulff + extreme speed) he loses vs rottom specter, he loses vs elektross, if you played manetric scarf he cannot come on you either easily it will be a 50-50 between volt switch or not, can not also come free on stunfisk because do not ohko

Then good thing Dugtrio isn't used to trap those. (Wait, I meant bad thing)

 

There are surely other example arguments that I could give you but I think that is enough, because by complaining you have not really given good arguments to ban the terrible dugtrio

 

 

 
 

Thank you all for my pep talk about Dugtrio. As I said before this mon is negatively restraining the tier, and usage of the most common Pokemon shows this very well. 

I'm not sure when I am able to discuss again, so I guess have fun.

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31 minutes ago, pachima said:

(For my beloved gbwead, Dugtrio should be problematic in every tier. But, as stated, since NU is generally much less bulky, as well as having less priority, simply makes Dugtrio slightly more problematic here than in the other tiers)

Apparently, you have over 900 NU mons. Perhaps you should simply ditch all your Spinda when teambuilding and play mons bulky enough to be viable in the first place, not only against Dugtrio, but anything really. 

 

37 minutes ago, pachima said:

No offense, I actually respect you being the only who dared to bring your opinions in the other side of the spectrum

Apparently, you missed my response to your flawed analysis on Dugtrio:

 

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26 minutes ago, pachima said:

 

Winrate is irrelevant to unhealthiness. I don't know how many times we need to bring this up. It is nothing more than a contributing factor that may or may not be decisive.

I said that indicates that, the players managed to manage the dugtrio, I am not claiming that it is revealing but rather that his watch that dugtrio is not broken

 

First you are severely undermining dugtrio's bulkiness, since for example, it is able to eat an Ice beam from nidoqueen. Second you are overmining (if thats a word) the ability to take EQs from offensive stuff. And third, u-turn, volt switch and teleport exist.

to answer your example ok he tanks a nidoquenn ice beam, but don't ohko necessarily, then yes there is a turn and teleport, so you say that dugtrio needs help to trap a pokemon on top of that capacity? (if so I think it's a lot)

 

Yes, a simple example in a simple game, where every Pokemon is either dead or 100% alive, and where there exists no chipping or hazards or whatever. Pokemon is simply not that game sorry.

when you play at a certain level there are things that you little control, certain damage that you should not take, the conditions the hazard control ect, if to win you must have the maximum hp on a certain pokemon that little to do

 

- wtf? how is this relevant. At all.

 

if you ban arena trap dugtrio is useless it's relevant whether you like it or not
 
 
- So we should not play the top third Pokemon if we want to deal with a supposedly non-problematic Pokemon? Sounds not problematic at all. Charizard? Lilligant? Samurott? Bibarel? I guess Tyranitar in gen3 wasn't that much of an issue cause hitmontop existed in NU then. (I won't even discuss the Omastar. AT ALL! 
once again you take the path that suits you,
I answer especially to all the players who say olala I can not vary my team-building played this or that because of dugtrio while there are a lot of pokemon with potenciel that can be played despite dugtrio
 
Let me explain you two things: First, Drapion's role is to wallbreak. Second Dugtrio's role is to support the rest of the team by removing threats they struggle to handle. Comparing them is like comparing Carrots with a submarine.
here you are more or less right, but I compare the two to show that a pokemon like drapion can be much more harmful than a dugtrio
 
Then good thing Dugtrio isn't used to trap those. (Wait, I meant bad thing)
flemme
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Inco explained this really well:

 

 

13 hours ago, Imperial said:

I'd also like to add that despite being a problem also in UU and OU, the bulk of Pokemon in NU is far less superior compared to the other tiers, meaning that Dugtrio affects the Pokemon and meta even more by being more likely to 1KO.

there are no more vulnerable Pokemon to dugtrio in NU than in OU, and Dugtrio has such a weak attack (because I recall that it is a Pokemon that has already had a nerf) are not capable of 1hko certain Pokemon which are quite weak to him, I would even say that Dugtrio is much more interested in OU than in NU (dugtrio 1hko much more Pokemon in OU than in NU, with much higher Stats), I would also like say that Dugtrio is a Pokemon that has a lot of bad matches, in general against * Balance *, or * Stall * teams, its not the kind of Pokemon that will clutch in NU , so I really don't understand why this Pokemon would deserve a Ban in NU with only 11% usage and 47% winrate

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7 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

yo all, well before you start you have to know that I did not count argued or defend the why I am against the ban of dugtrio and arena trap, because from my point of view it's a joke to want to ban such an average pokemon....

but I see that many of you are traumatized by the terrible dugtrio!

what we can see concerning dugtrio, last month he had a 50% win rate, which is absolutely not incredible, so by this figure we can understand that the players manage to cope with it

 

at the level of the pokemon stat, it has a good speed, and the rest? nothing, it does not tank anything so it cannot come easily on the ground, for that it was played 72% of the time with a sash,

 

he can not even ohko a drapion with his stab if he is not band, and he can not switch against drapion if he is band, and if he is sash he does not ohko not drapion, this is only an example simple..

 

some talk about ban arena trap, but without arena trap dugtrio becoming a totally useless pokemon ban arena trap is making an average pokemon useless and unplayable...

 

some say olala dugtrio makes pokemon unplayable, but it's just that you played the top third, dugtrio and weak against stall too much, but is not insane against offense, because many pokemon can set this up easily vs dugtrio, even a little sell smash omastar vs dugtrio if the dugtrio is sash (72% of the time)
if the dugtrio and cb and he just killed one of your pokemon with his stab you can set up one (mantine and charizard for example) you can also generally easily set up vs dugtrio with liligant, ferraligatueur, eelctross, samurot, bibarel and many others

 

there is also the argument dugtrio is not healthy, but how and by what, if a specific mechanic bothers you, it's just that you are closed in mind, why a dugtrio is less healthy than 'a drapion which little killed these counter with crit 50% of the time? the drapion which kills are counter little potencielment 6-0 a team, the dugtrio little trap a pokemon, not 6-0 all alone a team he helps like a support nothing more

 

last incredible thing, the terrible dugtrio loses the 1vs1 against electric type, he loses vs pickachu (bulff + extreme speed) he loses vs rottom specter, he loses vs elektross, if you played manetric scarf he cannot come on you either easily it will be a 50-50 between volt switch or not, can not also come free on stunfisk because do not ohko

 

There are surely other example arguments that I could give you but I think that is enough, because by complaining you have not really given good arguments to ban the terrible dugtrio

 

The fact that Dugtrio has terrible stats is irrelevant. See: Wobbufett. This mon was deemed as an uber in so many different generations, through maaany years in multiple metagames despite having an absolute obscure base stats. Reason? Same for Dugtrio- it's ability.

 

I don't know how many more times in how many more threads I have to repeat myself. Usage or winrate are not indication if something is broken or not. They never were and never will. It's the pokemon's impact on the tier, which Dugtrio surely has and in my opinion (and also apparently, opinion of many more decorated players) it's a heavily negative impact.

 

 

Your argument that it does not KO Drapion without band is something I would never expect from a TC member. Seriously? This is your line of defending Dugtrio? It doesn't KO Drapion without CB and thus it should remain in NU?...

 

Yes, Dugtrio makes other pokemon unplayable. When was the last time you saw a CB Blaziken? Magneton? Specs Houndoom? Hell knows how many more mons are restricted by it's presence in the tier alone. Not to say, how ridiculously uncompetitive it is to simply switch into weakened mon through u-turn/ volt switch and just take it out with STAB EQ, although Dugtrio is primarily a revenge killer.

 

The fact that it loses against most of electric mons in NU is again, irrelevant. You're focusing on what can deal with Dugtrio and not on it's negative impact on the tier itself. About the complaining part- you, as TC, are supposed to be the voice of community. You are supposed to listen to our complaning and hopefully discuss this with us. The only people from entire TC that actually voiced themselves out were JJ and Pachi (sorry Pachi I didn't mention you earlier, my bad). I honestly don't care how the vote was split, but without knowing your approach guys, we cannot argue with you and make you change your mind. Don't act like devs, don't make us call you out in every thread to at least get an opinion from you.

 

1 hour ago, MadaraSixSix said:

I said that indicates that, the players managed to manage the dugtrio, I am not claiming that it is revealing but rather that his watch that dugtrio is not broken

Uhh, sorry but I don't understand this sentence. No off, I appreciate the effort, knowing that you're french-only speaker but I just can't understand what this sentence was supposed to mean.

2 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

to answer your example ok he tanks a nidoquenn ice beam, but don't ohko necessarily, then yes there is a turn and teleport, so you say that dugtrio needs help to trap a pokemon on top of that capacity? (if so I think it's a lot)

Dugtrio's primary role is revenge-killing. It comes in on weakened stuff and kills it. Period. The fact that it can perform few more roles, including setting rocks/ memento and then switching in on defensive mons to KO them is only an add-on to it's uncompetitiveness. Dugtrio does not need support through volt/ turn/ teleport, it supports it's team by taking out the threats that would otherwise sweep it.

 

38 minutes ago, Redalie said:

there are no more vulnerable Pokemon to dugtrio in NU than in OU, and Dugtrio has such a weak attack (because I recall that it is a Pokemon that has already had a nerf) are not capable of 1hko certain Pokemon which are quite weak to him, I would even say that Dugtrio is much more interested in OU than in NU (dugtrio 1hko much more Pokemon in OU than in NU, with much higher Stats), I would also like say that Dugtrio is a Pokemon that has a lot of bad matches, in general against * Balance *, or * Stall * teams, its not the kind of Pokemon that will clutch in NU , so I really don't understand why this Pokemon would deserve a Ban in NU with only 11% usage and 47% winrate

Yeah Dugtrio had a "nerf" (actually it was about returning to Dugtrio's original base attack stat) but that, again, is completely irrelevant. Base stats, usage, winrate mean nothing. Landorus in Gen5 had I believe 13 or 15% usage- someone correct me, it's been years- and got banned to ubers, because of how ridiculously potent it was.

 

 

How about we find a middle ground and perform a test ban for the course of 2-3 months?

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Thank you to everyone in the Tier Council for their input.

 

This is a genuine question, but apologies if it's a stupid one, as I was around since 2015 but didn't play gen 3 comp - why is Wobbuffet's ability nerfed but Dugtrio's isn't when the former is more passive than the latter?

 

Was it because of Destiny Bond?

Edited by Imperial
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13 minutes ago, Imperial said:

Thank you to everyone in the Tier Council for their input.

 

This is a genuine question, but apologies if it's a stupid one, as I was around since 2015 but didn't play gen 3 comp - why is Wobbuffet's ability nerfed but Dugtrio's isn't when the former is more passive than the latter?

 

Was it because of Destiny Bond?

Wobbufet's nerf was also controversial. It was mostly because of Tickle which allowed Wobbuffet to reduce the def of any target making them vulnerable to pursuit trapping or Dugtrio.

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5 hours ago, pachima said:

some talk about ban arena trap, but without arena trap dugtrio becoming a totally useless pokemon ban arena trap is making an average pokemon useless and unplayable...

- wtf? how is this relevant. At all.

because 99% of the people who play dugtrio use it as a trapper to trap mons, which is also the reason ppl cry about its abillity???

 

and no we dont count your mini garchomp sandveil dugtrio

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2 hours ago, Redalie said:

there are no more vulnerable Pokemon to dugtrio in NU than in OU, and Dugtrio has such a weak attack (because I recall that it is a Pokemon that has already had a nerf) are not capable of 1hko certain Pokemon which are quite weak to him, I would even say that Dugtrio is much more interested in OU than in NU (dugtrio 1hko much more Pokemon in OU than in NU, with much higher Stats), I would also like say that Dugtrio is a Pokemon that has a lot of bad matches, in general against * Balance *, or * Stall * teams, its not the kind of Pokemon that will clutch in NU , so I really don't understand why this Pokemon would deserve a Ban in NU with only 11% usage and 47% winrate

The fact that people have to play more balance or stall teams because Dugtrio is likely to revenge kill a lot of the opposing mon's if they play more offensively shows that the Pokemon has centralised the meta significantly compared to at least 6 months ago.

 

Blaziken, Magmortar, Typhlosion, Electivire, Manectric, Drapion (with rocks damage) - all of these were in the highest usage and had high win %, the only exception is Blaziken which is still one of the most popular Pokemon, assumably due to U-turn.

 

I accept that Dugtrio can do the same in OU to a certain extent (e.g. Tyranitar and Gengar) 

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11 minutes ago, Imperial said:

The fact that people have to play more balance or stall teams because Dugtrio is likely to revenge kill a lot of the opposing mon's if they play more offensively shows that the Pokemon has centralised the meta significantly compared to at least 6 months ago.

 

Blaziken, Magmortar, Typhlosion, Electivire, Manectric, Drapion (with rocks damage) - all of these were in the highest usage and had high win %, the only exception is Blaziken which is still one of the most popular Pokemon, assumably due to U-turn.

 

I accept that Dugtrio can do the same in OU to a certain extent (e.g. Tyranitar and Gengar) 

Typhlosion was not NU yet, so its usage didn't really drop because of Dugtrio. As for Manectric, it always sucked. Bad win rate and for some reason it gained usage lately. Electivire win rate was also always pretty bad, so I'm not sure Dugtrio is responsible for it being meh.

Edited by gbwead
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This debate is pretty much both sides saying other's arguments are irrelevant. Maybe gotta ask yourself for WHAT you are making these arguments, so we can all agree on if it is relevant or not. 

From what I read from Rys, if you replace the word "broken" by "not fun to play", it makes way more sense. But is still a individual point of view. Assuming those arguments are subjective is a first step to have a healthier debate :D

Edited by Poufilou
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4 hours ago, RysPicz said:

 

The fact that Dugtrio has terrible stats is irrelevant. See: Wobbufett. This mon was deemed as an uber in so many different generations, through maaany years in multiple metagames despite having an absolute obscure base stats. Reason? Same for Dugtrio- it's ability.

 

I don't know how many more times in how many more threads I have to repeat myself. Usage or winrate are not indication if something is broken or not. They never were and never will. It's the pokemon's impact on the tier, which Dugtrio surely has and in my opinion (and also apparently, opinion of many more decorated players) it's a heavily negative impact.

 

 

Your argument that it does not KO Drapion without band is something I would never expect from a TC member. Seriously? This is your line of defending Dugtrio? It doesn't KO Drapion without CB and thus it should remain in NU?...

 

Yes, Dugtrio makes other pokemon unplayable. When was the last time you saw a CB Blaziken? Magneton? Specs Houndoom? Hell knows how many more mons are restricted by it's presence in the tier alone. Not to say, how ridiculously uncompetitive it is to simply switch into weakened mon through u-turn/ volt switch and just take it out with STAB EQ, although Dugtrio is primarily a revenge killer.

 

The fact that it loses against most of electric mons in NU is again, irrelevant. You're focusing on what can deal with Dugtrio and not on it's negative impact on the tier itself. About the complaining part- you, as TC, are supposed to be the voice of community. You are supposed to listen to our complaning and hopefully discuss this with us. The only people from entire TC that actually voiced themselves out were JJ and Pachi (sorry Pachi I didn't mention you earlier, my bad). I honestly don't care how the vote was split, but without knowing your approach guys, we cannot argue with you and make you change your mind. Don't act like devs, don't make us call you out in every thread to at least get an opinion from you.

 

Uhh, sorry but I don't understand this sentence. No off, I appreciate the effort, knowing that you're french-only speaker but I just can't understand what this sentence was supposed to mean.

Dugtrio's primary role is revenge-killing. It comes in on weakened stuff and kills it. Period. The fact that it can perform few more roles, including setting rocks/ memento and then switching in on defensive mons to KO them is only an add-on to it's uncompetitiveness. Dugtrio does not need support through volt/ turn/ teleport, it supports it's team by taking out the threats that would otherwise sweep it.

 

Yeah Dugtrio had a "nerf" (actually it was about returning to Dugtrio's original base attack stat) but that, again, is completely irrelevant. Base stats, usage, winrate mean nothing. Landorus in Gen5 had I believe 13 or 15% usage- someone correct me, it's been years- and got banned to ubers, because of how ridiculously potent it was.

 

 

How about we find a middle ground and perform a test ban for the course of 2-3 months?

without thinking too much, just from my experience as a pvp player it seemed to me more restrictive to have to play against wobbufet than against a dugtrio, simply because wobbufet little trap almost everyone and that he has very good deffance that he has a specific set that he make strong I say "strong" the or dugtrio I say it again I find it average

so i will not compare these two pokemon.

 

my example in relation to drapion and a common example that I made on purpose to take because drapion is a common pokemon, it is one argument among many others, it is not the main one

 

I personally played a CB blaziken during the psl team, I also saw whatever player played it CB, but I think players prefer it to be played scarf dugtrio or not, then why would everyone want to play spec pokemon or CB which are weak a dugtrio you little played CB Water or fly type for example

 

I spoke of the elec type for precisely showing that the poke sol does not even trap weak pokemon to itself, you say that dugtrio is negative for the meta it's your opinion, but not mine

 

i signed up with tc to do things that I think is right, if something seems abused I will be for the ban if something seems legit to me I will vote for it, so no I'm not going to listen to the community blindly, " if all the players say olalalal the stall is bad for the games, i would say no it's their opinion not mine "same things with dugtrio
on the other hand if you proved to me that I am wrong and that the pokemon is very harmful for the strategy I little changed my vote I am not just one blocked but for the moment I believe to be in the right one

 

I'll end up keeping it simple, I'll always be to ban broken or too strong pokemon in my opinion, for example garchomp sword dance, porygon z in UU, but when it comes to cute little dugtrio who doesn't destroy any team of his own alone,
this ability is boring according to what I read
the stall is also boring for certain players, should you ban it?
I think arena trap + dugtrio is a different ability from other abilities but it is not broken

 

 

 

 

 

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yo so im here too, i mostly ghost these type of forums just to see what ppl think and say about pvp in general, i don t play nu or uu but i also look at dugtrio as being unhealty for the meta ,anyway im here to ask one thing do Tier Council members even play pvp? I mean any tier not only nu or uu and so on, do they play pvp?

I ask that as a genuine question cuz i really don t know but then i come here and see these

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but I see that many of you are traumatized by the terrible dugtrio!

 

what we can see concerning dugtrio, last month he had a 50% win rate, which is absolutely not incredible, so by this figure we can understand that the players manage to cope with it

 

at the level of the pokemon stat, it has a good speed, and the rest? nothing, it does not tank anything so it cannot come easily on the ground, for that it was played 72% of the time with a sash,

 

he can not even ohko a drapion with his stab if he is not band, and he can not switch against drapion if he is band, and if he is sash he does not ohko not drapion, this is only an example simple..

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First you are severely undermining dugtrio's bulkiness, since for example, it is able to eat an Ice beam from nidoqueen. Second you are overmining (if thats a word) the ability to take EQs from offensive stuff. And third, u-turn, volt switch and teleport exist.

to answer your example ok he tanks a nidoquenn ice beam, but don't ohko necessarily, then yes there is a turn and teleport, so you say that dugtrio needs help to trap a pokemon on top of that capacity? (if so I think it's a lot)

 

Yes, a simple example in a simple game, where every Pokemon is either dead or 100% alive, and where there exists no chipping or hazards or whatever. Pokemon is simply not that game sorry.

when you play at a certain level there are things that you little control, certain damage that you should not take, the conditions the hazard control ect, if to win you must have the maximum hp on a certain pokemon that little to do

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i signed up with tc to do things that I think is right, if something seems abused I will be for the ban if something seems legit to me I will vote for it, so no I'm not going to listen to the community blindly, " if all the players say olalalal the stall is bad for the games, i would say no it's their opinion not mine "same things with dugtrio
on the other hand if you proved to me that I am wrong and that the pokemon is very harmful for the strategy I little changed my vote I am not just one blocked but for the moment I believe to be in the right one

ill ask again do ppl from TC play pvp at all ? I want to know ,also as far as logic goes TC should go towards the community opinion and not have members that are like ''ye if i don t like it its a ban but if you don t like it ? bad luck kido'' is thats the case why do we even have a TC? just make anything ban/nerf related a voting process lol

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9 minutes ago, YourAngst said:

yo so im here too, i mostly ghost these type of forums just to see what ppl think and say about pvp in general, i don t play nu or uu but i also look at dugtrio as being unhealty for the meta ,anyway im here to ask one thing do Tier Council members even play pvp? I mean any tier not only nu or uu and so on, do they play pvp?

I ask that as a genuine question cuz i really don t know but then i come here and see these

ill ask again do ppl from TC play pvp at all ? I want to know ,also as far as logic goes TC should go towards the community opinion and not have members that are like ''ye if i don t like it its a ban but if you don t like it ? bad luck kido'' is thats the case why do we even have a TC? just make anything ban/nerf related a voting process lol

Hey there my friend, you may want to check this thread out:

 

 

image.png.39b49321e3709060489dafbf82abcc57.png

image.png.7f29b26e45950cd85aceb3ffc7b9010d.png

image.png.3af2077f60b715fa80fae76539ed705c.png

 

Just to name a few, but I don't think they play PvP at all.

 

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On top of what is said above, its actually becoming a requirement in the not so distant future when I am given the tools to check pvp activity.  A requirement that will be held even to me even though I don't participate in the voting.

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On 7/31/2021 at 1:00 PM, Munya said:

Unfortunately for those of you wanting it banned, dugtrio votes keep ending up as a dead split down the middle every time it comes up so it doesn't look like anything is happening this month with it.

Can you share with us the breakdown of the votes of each member?  To an outsider it is bad optics when you have 4 members of the TC who belong to the same team and can therefore have a huge influence on the votes.

 

EDIT: Also what are the current activity levels of members like Zebra, Tyrone, and BlueBreath ingame?

Edited by NikhilR
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