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August-Movement Discussion Thread


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As a TC member, i voted for the ban of dugtrio for several reasons (and no, even if some are in SIA, we don't vote the same) and i will explain why
 

1. First one is that it removes easily some mon which can pursuit (houndoum, drapion, absol) rotom, a top-tier in NU, with a band, sash or scarf. Yet, it can't ohko some mon but with cheap damage, it can do it easily. It works very well against hyper offense but can do the work well against stall by trapping a mid life special tank for example.

2. Second one, to follow what i said, in NU, most poke aren't bulky so, even with a 80 bs atk, it's enough to do damages before dying. 

3. Third one and the most important is that this pokemon trap. It's not as powerful than shadow tag from wobbuffet but is unhealthy by itself. As the NU poke are not bulky for the majority contrary to UU or OU, i find it unhealthy to keep it in NU and should be removed to UU a least. 

4. Fourth one, and it's in favor of Dug is that this mon is easily breaked by priorities due to its low bulk and weak bs HP. 

I also think that removing the arena trap ability from dug should not be considered as the pokemon would become useless.
 

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14 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

it is  interesting the best defense that I saw for this debate

dugtrio does not destroy the level and not trap one pokemon at 100% i agree with this

 

"su habilidad sigue siendo algo malsano no solo en esto, si no en en general, te da una ventaja competitiva lo quieras o no, "

no dugtrio even with its ability does not always give an adventage to its user, sometimes having dugtrio is just having a weak pokemon out of 6

 

 

yes your example of eelektross + dugtrio is very good it's a good combo well found, but as you will say later there are plenty of combos in different thirds

eelektross is capable of disturbing all ground pokemon, exepcté nido
that doesn't make dugtrio the strong pokemon, it's just the eelktross movepool which is big, ... if we all have to play nidoquen it's that there is a problem right?
then you take this example, but it works because dugtrio is capable of rather well trapped nidoquen, everyone does not always play nido in this team

 

a nido that plays sheed shell, it's like a skarmory or ferrot for magnzone...

no it does not always give an advantage

 

in my opinion, something that is not broken should not be banned

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nidoqueen was just an example, to deepen better I will place a NU team sample lately, I will analyze them individually and together, on the impact that dugtrio would have to eliminate x Mon

 Eleektross: The elimination of Nidoqueen implies being able to offer damage and even go pivoting through volts

 Typlo: In his time, he eliminated Gigalith which was a response to him, now a mon like houndoom that is usually played in H.O could stop his eruption spam, dugtrio eliminating it would be free eruption to whatever enters

Golbat: User of u turn, using it in something that usually enters it, such as Golem and Dugtrio entering and eliminating it

 Escavalier: Taking advantage of the elimination of fyre tipes

 Now I will analyze it in a group way If they notice it, a rival typlo would give this team certain problems, dugtrio deletes it, a Nidoqueen could also give him problems with the proper set, but it is still deleted, zoroark nasty is able to sweep everything to +2, it is also deleted, Magmortar also, it would generate great damage, but it is also deleted, only mentioning the mon that usually lose vs dugtrio, but that is not only the only thing, there is another issue, The ability must not only weaken mons to 100% of hp to be functional , it still eliminates weakened mons, espeon that could also harm with the indicated hp falls with a little damage and mentioning mons apart, venusaur, vanilluxe, even escavalier, weakening of an eq with having -40 or even less than 50% of life, Maybe you will say that pursuit does the same, but no, pursuit makes you enter a mental game, if it will change or not, which can generate a bad decision of course, sand trap makes it impossible to change, there is no mental game to use it Besides, pursuit is only caught To be a sinister type, a resistant mon like escava could survive so change badly, here you can choose whether to go eq stone sucker reversal etc.

 

To get off the topic of the team, here I show the last official that I won days ago, If you notice, drapion sweeps the entire team from me, while stunfisk cancels my braviary, I knew that it would lead to drapion, without more than anything I placed dugtrio, I eliminated drapion and stunfisk with this one and had the advantage of the duel, I had no way to break my team because drapion was out or how to stop Braviary's sweep because stunfisk was eliminated, which ended in a victory of mine, that is the advantage competitive that I mean.

IMG_20210805_110711.jpg

IMG_20210805_110654.jpg

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16 hours ago, Huargensy said:

You do not put Dugtrio to sweep a team, he never will, you just have to get off one to support the other one behind you, the case of nidoqueen (eelektross + dugtrio) or the case of scarf dugtrio in a weak team to blaziken, in each level there will always be something that can be trapped and without x things it will make your opponent have no way to counteract your team, something like happened in smou with stall and his terror heatran / tyranitar, or skar + dugtrio to eliminate magnezone, that is an advantage that It will give you in the best cases a way to win at the best moment, obviously it does not have much to cheat on in NU I completely agree with that, but I feel that this is compensated by eliminating important things from the level, drapion like wallbreak, blaziken being a good pivot, Typlo another important mon and nidoqueen, one of the best walls in my opinion of NU, etc, with them outside would mean an advantage depending on the team that you join with dugtrio (I would only leave dugtrio because I hate typloshion in the level and it makes me a good answer haha)

I understand that Dugtrio is capable of trapping important mons like the ones you pointed out (Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc.). What I want to understand is how is trapping mons like Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc. more banworthy than trapping mons like Ttar, Infernape, Volcarona, Magnezone, etc. For me, it's pretty much the same thing.

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

I understand that Dugtrio is capable of trapping important mons like the ones you pointed out (Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc.). What I want to understand is how is trapping mons like Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc. more banworthy than trapping mons like Ttar, Infernape, Volcarona, Magnezone, etc. For me, it's pretty much the same thing.

Because it is the same thing. Dug (well, Arena Trap) is cancer. Period.

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11 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Entiendo que Dugtrio es capaz de atrapar monstruos importantes como los que usted señaló (Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc.). Lo que quiero entender es cómo atrapar monstruos como Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc. es más banal que atrapar monstruos como Ttar, Infernape, Volcarona, Magnezone, etc. Para mí, es más o menos lo mismo.

I do not want them to ban it in NU, I want them to ban it from all the tiers, so before I mentioned hera and tyra as an example, but since they are focusing on NU, take that example

Edited by Huargensy
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On 8/4/2021 at 1:59 PM, suigin said:

I mean that's why rng exists, so little kids can grab wins against 500 pound (pure muscle) adults, problem is I have to do ten backflips in the air to make sand end before I can ensure a hit against a Garchomp in an offensive team otherwise I may just risk one of the things that can steadily revenge kill it.

The Cloyster issue apparently already has a solution going on, hopefully they don't go through with the ridiculous idea of it simply announcing "Hey idiot, you're gonna get flinched to death, good luck!"

Cursed Body Gengar is also awful, I won too many games through disabling a mon's attack and then setting up when they were helpless, I was against this change since the beginning but people who have never played competitive had the final word.

I just played a match using a defensive team in where out of the 6 chances to 2hko a Nasty Plot Gengar (massive threat to my team) I got Cursed Body'd immediately after every time and due to the cycle we were stuck in it eventually got back to out of 2hko range again and risked itself stupidly once again and pretty much got a kill every time because I just couldn't revenge kill it without having to retreat after nailing a hit due to my move that could hit it being locked.
What was the reasoning behind it again? To fit in with the games? The ones that had Fairy types turn its poison typing into a serious boon and on top of that gave him one of the most broken forms in the history of the game? Or maybe the games without said broken form but with a Gigantamax form instead?  @Rache can you remind me why this change was made? Did it make PVE better? Did it make PVP better? If it didn't noticeably make them better can you revert it to Levitate? Hell I'm willing to see how Levitate+Nasty Plot behave if that's the issue.

 

And like I said in my previous post, plenty of times I've had the same situation happen to me where my own Gengar procced Cursed Body on my opponent allowing me to set up a win condition pretty much for free when playing a more offensive team. Really not a fan of this change.

 

I know everyone wants to carry on with the same Duggy discussion we've been having since 2015 but maybe if we all yell hard enough at the people in charge we can get something small like this to change.

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3 hours ago, suigin said:

What was the reasoning behind it again? To fit in with the games? The ones that had Fairy types turn its poison typing into a serious boon and on top of that gave him one of the most broken forms in the history of the game? Or maybe the games without said broken form but with a Gigantamax form instead?  @Rache can you remind me why this change was made? Did it make PVE better? Did it make PVP better? If it didn't noticeably make them better can you revert it to Levitate? Hell I'm willing to see how Levitate+Nasty Plot behave if that's the issue.

 

 

It was supposed to be "canon" I think. As canon as draco meteor-less Hydreigon and Dugtrio with 80 base atk stat

Edited by RysPicz
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18 hours ago, gbwead said:

I understand that Dugtrio is capable of trapping important mons like the ones you pointed out (Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc.). What I want to understand is how is trapping mons like Drapion, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Nidoqueen, etc. more banworthy than trapping mons like Ttar, Infernape, Volcarona, Magnezone, etc. For me, it's pretty much the same thing.

OU duggy:
a5f442dbb33b0ff7aa40b7a256b506ff.png

NU duggy:

d67953d09b6822def8163ac55be46f6b.png

 

Almost no difference in usage of jolly natures, but almost 8% increase in usage of adamant in NU in addition to a whopping 28% higher usage of choice scarf. While choice band usage only increases by 4,6% in comparison, there is more life orb dugtrios in NU than theres cb dugs in OU. In OU theres also way more focus sash dugtrios than in NU, so its more likely to be used to stop certain things from getting out of hand over effortlessly trapping offensive mons. Hazard meta stability might also allow dug to run more sashes, but is a con duggy argument in NU, because being more unreliably able to remove hazards plays into dugtrios hands regarding chip it needs to score KOs.

 

You simply cant just yolo duggy in OU if you want it to do something consistently, its gets way more offensively oriented in NU however. Might be due to stronger base stat destributions, way stronger priority, less reliance on things dugtrio traps in a better balanced tier (its harder to enable reunicles than it is to enable espeon) and a wider variety of viable playstyles (afaik you can run stall in OU consistently, while you cant in NU), so while it can be useless in NU matches as well the chances of that happening are way higher in OU.

 

If you take a look at NU usage you see that it always revenge kills typh, blaze and drap by just being ada scarf (50% vs drap if jolly scarf, to ensure to revenge scarf typh, which i think is bad though). Three top 10 usage offensive behemoths trapped safely and without any effort at all. Apart from gengar, i dont see any top 10 usage mon in OU that effortlessly gets trapped, considering gengar being able to kill stuff behind a sub, which makes it a 1 and 1% duggy for 1 every now and then. If you factor in scarf sets on chomp or gengar it gets even worse.

 

Also theres a wider variety in defensive answers to certain threats in OU, which leads to dugtrio enabling preset strategies more reliably in NU, which Huargensy explained sufficiently already.

 

Base stat retribution, cant stress that enough. Dugtrios base speed is amazing in the NU meta game. It ties with sceptile, so behind swellow, it shares the second highest base speed in NU after aero move up due to OU usage, unless you want to factor in accelgor, which is used 2,5% of the time and carries damp rock 97% of the time, so ill ignore it for that argument - you get my point tho. Basically dugtrio outspeeds every unboosted/scarfed mon in the meta game.

 

Defensive base stat retribution has to be factored in as well here and by virtue of talking about the lowest mmo tier these fall short in comparison to other tiers, so duggy traps offensive stuff way more reliably as well (in addition to a lack of strong and reliable/spammable priority). Frail mons like doom (timid sits at 18%, so np is evidentally and logically bad in a dugtrio influenced meta), espeon, vanilluxe (edge ohkos after rocks/chip), gallade, zoro (funny that shit is NU, but whatever) the three mentioned above are trapped safely as well.

 

Meta game development: this one is probably a tad speculative, because developing a stable meta game is probably never gonna happen in NU due to constant movement cycles and how tiering works in this game, but if we look at current usages, we could assume that magmortar could do fairly well, sitting at 83 base speed, and having a solid standing with bro, rotom, venu, mantine, steelix, vani high up - not an option, because duggy. Toying around with defensive emboars? - not gonna happen. Camerupt, because typh, rotom and eel have high usage? - nope. Electric types that arent rotom to react to slowbro - nope. Some gimmicky, but maybe efficient glues to toy around with like chinchou or lampent... denied. Jynx, toxicroak ( i know slowbro is high up there, but gunk calcs are fun, so are np ones, also theres fera and 85 base speed) - no. So in addition to already trapping and revenging a solid portion the current usage list, it hinders development to take place.

 

Arena trap isnt uncompetitive, because mag can trap as well: a) thats four pokemon in OU, b) skarm (maybe even ferro? idk) can afford to run shed shell arguably, which NUs cant, scizor pivots spamming u-turn, exca makes you work harder for it, c) mag traps one of these and doesnt threaten to trap additional mons, unless you are a steel type gym leader.

 

Switching is a key part of playing competitive pokemon. Taking that autonomy away from people disturbs a key rule of this game. As explained above mags do the same, but you can, and if you are somewhat decent always will, prepare for mag if you want to run one of the steels (which is one out of 17 available types in mmo) listed above. Duggy potentially traps 16 of these unless they carry levitate as their ability.

 

In conclusion; dugtrio is way less risk and way higher reward in NU and comparisons between arena trap and magnet pull are just plain stupid. And yes, arena trap is uncompetitive.

 

 

@MadaraSixSixI havent said you are a bad tc. What i said is that your arguments arent sufficient enough to convince anybody on the contra dug side of the spectrum and that has nothing to do with how many tournaments you´ve won, nor does it have anything to do with how many i have won - period.

 

Regarding your credibility argument: This is your chance to completely dismantle my post to prove that i have no credibility whatsoever. Im looking forward to it.

 

 

Edited by NOREButler
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Im not a TC but i want to give my point of view about dugtrio.

Dugtrio prevent NU players the chance to use pokemons like : choice band blaziken, choices specs houndoom magmortar typhlosion , also some poison type pokemon and a lot of others , dugtrio with focus sash come easly on all of this pokémons, take the damage , tank it with sash and kill it after , and thats really disgusting because of its ability that trap every one who dont have levitate or flying type , the ban of dugtrio to UU is really needed since in UU there's nothing much to trap and OHKO , and since many people are asking for the ban , @Munyashould ban it.

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2 hours ago, NOREButler said:

Apart from gengar, i dont see any top 10 usage mon in OU that effortlessly gets trapped, considering gengar being able to kill stuff behind a sub, which makes it a 1 and 1% duggy for 1 every now and then. If you factor in scarf sets on chomp or gengar it gets even worse.

 

2 hours ago, NOREButler said:

Switching is a key part of playing competitive pokemon. Taking that autonomy away from people disturbs a key rule of this game. As explained above mags do the same, but you can, and if you are somewhat decent always will, prepare for mag if you want to run one of the steels (which is one out of 17 available types in mmo) listed above. Duggy potentially traps 16 of these unless they carry levitate as their ability.

 

 

 

By the way arena trap does not work on ghost types

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6 hours ago, NOREButler said:

OU duggy:
a5f442dbb33b0ff7aa40b7a256b506ff.png

NU duggy:

d67953d09b6822def8163ac55be46f6b.png

Is this the August usage? That would mean it's like 6 days usage which doesn't mean much, but ok let's look at it anyways.

 

The most important thing to consider here is that 2% of OU winners use Sand Veil on Dugtrio and 8% of NU winners use Sand Veil on Dugtrio. This means only one thing: NU players are shit at this game compared to OU players and perhaps they shouldn't get involved in tiering decisions if they are so clueless.

 

6 hours ago, NOREButler said:

Almost no difference in usage of jolly natures, but almost 8% increase in usage of adamant in NU in addition to a whopping 28% higher usage of choice scarf. While choice band usage only increases by 4,6% in comparison, there is more life orb dugtrios in NU than theres cb dugs in OU. In OU theres also way more focus sash dugtrios than in NU, so its more likely to be used to stop certain things from getting out of hand over effortlessly trapping offensive mons. Hazard meta stability might also allow dug to run more sashes, but is a con duggy argument in NU, because being more unreliably able to remove hazards plays into dugtrios hands regarding chip it needs to score KOs.

I ask a few people about what you said in bold and there is no consensus about what you were trying to say. I personally believe you were trying to say that it's more difficult to remove hazards in NU which mean Dugtrio has less reasons to run sash and is a better position to kill stuff since they won't be at full health. If that is what you were trying to say, then I believe you are simply mistaken. Hazard control is pretty decent in NU with mons like Golbat, Mantine, Rotom, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, Golem, Serperior, Cryogonal, etc. I mean cmon, you know all of them, so why do you believe they are less effective than OU hazard remover. 

 

6 hours ago, NOREButler said:

You simply cant just yolo duggy in OU if you want it to do something consistently, its gets way more offensively oriented in NU however. Might be due to stronger base stat destributions, way stronger priority, less reliance on things dugtrio traps in a better balanced tier (its harder to enable reunicles than it is to enable espeon) and a wider variety of viable playstyles (afaik you can run stall in OU consistently, while you cant in NU), so while it can be useless in NU matches as well the chances of that happening are way higher in OU.

I disagree with most of what is said here. Reuniclus and Espeon are extremely different. Why is Dugtrio supposed to enbable Reuniclus at all? Is Dugtrio supposed to enable Psychic types? Dugtrio enables Togekiss btw by removing Ttar, Magnezone et sometimes Jolteon.

 

6 hours ago, NOREButler said:

f you take a look at NU usage you see that it always revenge kills typh, blaze and drap by just being ada scarf (50% vs drap if jolly scarf, to ensure to revenge scarf typh, which i think is bad though). Three top 10 usage offensive behemoths trapped safely and without any effort at all. Apart from gengar, i dont see any top 10 usage mon in OU that effortlessly gets trapped, considering gengar being able to kill stuff behind a sub, which makes it a 1 and 1% duggy for 1 every now and then. If you factor in scarf sets on chomp or gengar it gets even worse.

First of all, I think NU players are trash compared to OU players, so I think NU usage doesn't really show what is viable in NU. For the record, Volcarona and Ttar are both top used mons; Dugtrio traps both.

 

Dugtrio never traps without any effort at all. Unless your opponent is braindead - which is more likely in NU than OU - you will always have to make some plays or take some risks in order for Dugtrio to come on the field.

 

I already adressed what I think about CB/Scarf/Sash Dugtrio, so I'm not going to do that again. 

 

6 hours ago, NOREButler said:

Arena trap isnt uncompetitive, because mag can trap as well: a) thats four pokemon in OU, b) skarm (maybe even ferro? idk) can afford to run shed shell arguably, which NUs cant, scizor pivots spamming u-turn, exca makes you work harder for it, c) mag traps one of these and doesnt threaten to trap additional mons, unless you are a steel type gym leader.

Why can Skarmory and Ferro afford to run Shed Shell, but Nidoqueen can't afford it? Skarmory and Ferro would prefer running Rocky Helmet or Leftovers over Shed Shell and many players choose to play these items anyways at the risk of getting trapped. Magnezone traps one of these steel mons, but some people run multiple steel types just like some players run multiple weaknesses to Dugtrio. Sure Arena Trap can trap more things in general than Magnet Pull, but that doesn't change much in regard to teams that stack mons weak to Dugtrio in NU, these teams are not super viable even if Dugtrio wasn't around.

 

6 hours ago, NOREButler said:

Switching is a key part of playing competitive pokemon. Taking that autonomy away from people disturbs a key rule of this game. As explained above mags do the same, but you can, and if you are somewhat decent always will, prepare for mag if you want to run one of the steels (which is one out of 17 available types in mmo) listed above. Duggy potentially traps 16 of these unless they carry levitate as their ability.

If we didn't have Team Preview, I would agree. However, in MMO, we know in advance we are facing Dugtrio and the risks that comes with bringing on the field a mon that can be trapped. When in comes to uncompetitiveness, there is a huge gap between Arena Trap without team preview and Arena Trap with team preview. Arena Trap remains quite uncompetitive, but in order to bring out the most cancer out of Arena Trap, Arena Trap users need to be good as well.

 

Trapinch and Diglett also have access to Arena Trap and would never be considered banworthy. Dugtrio has much better stats than them, but even with better stats, it's still not great (even by NU standards). Speed doesn't mean that much when Dugtrio is extremely weak, doesn't hit really hard and has a poor movepool. Its trapping options are therefore pretty limited.

 

 

Edited by gbwead
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4 hours ago, gbwead said:

The most important thing to consider here is that 2% of OU winners use Sand Veil on Dugtrio and 8% of NU winners use Sand Veil on Dugtrio. This means only one thing: NU players are shit at this game compared to OU players and perhaps they shouldn't get involved in tiering decisions if they are so clueless.

No, sand veil usage is not the most important thing to consider looking at this chart. While using august usages was my fault, since i didnt know you could still check july usages, i can now say that trends are similar, albeit with slightly less discrepancy (so far).

 

In july the sand veil usage differs btw, so only 2% súck undeniably. Ill argue based on july stats from now on tho - my bad. 

 

Apart from that i wonder why you didnt comment the first half of that paragraph. Can dugtrio afford to take a way more offensive approach than in OU, yes or no? And if you think it doesnt, why?

 

I also struggle to see why someone shouldnt get involved in tiering if he reaches logicial and beneficial conclusions "despite" playing NU. Its not like the tier is garbage, because too many NU players got involved with tiering over the couple of last years.

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

Hazard control is pretty decent in NU with mons like Golbat, Mantine, Rotom, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, Golem, Serperior, Cryogonal, etc. I mean cmon, you know all of them, so why do you believe they are less effective than OU hazard remover. 

Exactly and thats why i know that froslass (7%) + golem (12%) pressures a shitton of hazard cores and that combo (+ Pikachu) already started to spike when the Biba hat was the grindable vanity. Serp is using light clay 83% of the time -> no defog (and its a terrible defogger, which you probably know as well), Golbat (rocks weak) struggles with Lix, Pilo, Froslass, Nido and Golem depending on its set (not too reliable is it? Interesting usage stat), Hitmons struggle with high Rotom and Slowbro usage, Golem is not a reliable spinner either considering it lacks recovery and running custap 86% of the times its used probably has a reason. Cryogonal (rocks weak) is not a terrible defogger, but Houndoom, Escava, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Fera, Gallade, Clef come in on it with relative ease, unless you go with Speed and SpA heavy investments, which then again lets it spin (defog >) less reliably. Mantines legit tho and imo the best and consistent defogger the tier has to offer.

 

If im wrong about the initial statement regarding duggy running sash less often, because the hazard meta is difficult to handle, it further strengthens my argumentation that duggy can trap with less effort yoloing scarf/band however.

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

I disagree with most of what is said here. Reuniclus and Espeon are extremely different. Why is Dugtrio supposed to enbable Reuniclus at all? Is Dugtrio supposed to enable Psychic types? Dugtrio enables Togekiss btw by removing Ttar, Magnezone et sometimes Jolteon.

Yeah, example indeed wasnt the smartest. I dont really remember what i was trying to say there, so i gotta give you that one without putting up a fight.

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

First of all, I think NU players are trash compared to OU players, so I think NU usage doesn't really show what is viable in NU.

The tier goes through shake ups every three months, (huge and you even agreed on that one on multiple occasions); theres way less traffic than in OU and tiering regarding NU is a giant clusterfuck - has been since the introduction of new mons. Naturally OU would have a higher quality level of competition. No idea what you´d expect and why you have to call out NU players when you should, and probably do, very well know players arent to blame.

 

I would also have guessed some mons with low usage higher up, because they are too good to pass up on, but NU usage is not made up by people spamming cb flareon regardless.

  

On 2/28/2019 at 7:54 PM, gbwead said:

NU is way too unstable for anyone to say specific mons are viable or unviable. 

..."People suck"...and just yesterday you asked if we had viability rankings as reference point.

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

Dugtrio never traps without any effort at all. Unless your opponent is braindead - which is more likely in NU than OU - you will always have to make some plays or take some risks in order for Dugtrio to come on the field.

Yes, you have to work for stuff like Nido, but revenge killing a bunch of NUs best offensive mons at 100% or with some slight chip, because the tier consists of glass cannons is indeed rather effortless.

 

Should have outlined that i was talking about revenge killing i guess, altough i thought that anybody working through that post, would be able to realise i wasnt thinking that you can blindly throw Dugtrio in front of a bus called Blaziken, Typh, or Drapion. My bad...

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

but Nidoqueen can't afford it?

Defensive pokes like Nido, or Lix (which hardly gets trapped, but w/e) can indeed run shed shell if the team relies on them very heavily, touche, but that bulk of offensive mons it traps simply cant to function properly. Mag primarily traps defensive mons; dug traps everything, so only nitpicking Nido there is a tad lazy.

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

Magnezone traps one of these steel mons, but some people run multiple steel types just like some players run multiple weaknesses to Dugtrio. 

 

Sure Arena Trap can trap more things in general than Magnet Pull, but that doesn't change much in regard to teams that stack mons weak to Dugtrio in NU, these teams are not super viable even if Dugtrio wasn't around.

Maybe, because like you said, it is easier to avoid being trapped by mag than it is to avoid being trapped by dugtrio, due to arena trap not affecting 2 (!) types. Its such a huge difference of reach between magnet pull and arena trap and the fact you are trying to mitigate that by those "arguments" is just so ridiculous to me. 

 

Second half is such an odd statement. Obviously, its not too smart to stack fire mons, but why would a balance shell centered around two offensive mons dugtrio traps, lets say Blaziken and Vani, be bad by default? 

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

If we didn't have Team Preview, I would agree. However, in MMO, we know in advance we are facing Dugtrio and the risks that comes with bringing on the field a mon that can be trapped. When in comes to uncompetitiveness, there is a huge gap between Arena Trap without team preview and Arena Trap with team preview. Arena Trap remains quite uncompetitive, but in order to bring out the most cancer out of Arena Trap, Arena Trap users need to be good as well.

On 8/5/2021 at 1:16 AM, gbwead said:

A Pokemon like Dugtrio provides a lot of much needed stability to the players thanks to its uncompetitive ability

 

In a chaotic metagame constantly shaken up, Dugtrio's cancer simplifies games.

I agree that you need to be good if you wanna maximise arena trap, as everything in mons, but you even say it yourself several times: Arena Trap is quite uncompetitive. If i had to choose between the two i would go with the least cancer, over the most cancer, but ideally i would not want cancer at all.

 

If it simplifies games, its efficiency cant rely too much on skill either.

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

Trapinch and Diglett also have access to Arena Trap and would never be considered banworthy. Dugtrio has much better stats than them, but even with better stats, it's still not great (even by NU standards). Speed doesn't mean that much when Dugtrio is extremely weak, doesn't hit really hard and has a poor movepool. 

 

Its trapping options are therefore pretty limited.

The reason nobody is every gonna use Trapinch again is that it has 10 base speed. I mean cmon, do we really need to discuss why 120 base speed in conjunction with 80 base att (which isnt that great indeed, but sufficient for NU) is way better than 10 base speed and 100 base att? And while its movepool is indeed shallow, it doesnt need more than EQ, Edge and Sucker. It lacking move options is not an argument, since it doesnt hinder it doing its job.

 

Fun fact: Its base speed even allows scarf Duggy to tweak def evs to live Doom sucker punches, and having a favourable roll vs Absol non crit ones, if you settle for outspeeding 95 base positive natured scarfers/+1 mons and avoid prior chip damage.


Yesnt, it doesnt oneshot the whole tier, otherwise we would hardly be discussing it, but it undeniably can trap a decent portion of the current meta game with a low skill dependency and hinders mons from being part of it, thus denies meta development. Which btw is a point you completely ignored, tho i can understand why, since you are working under the assumption that everybody playing NU is too pooped to discover it wholly.

 

 

 

Edited by NOREButler
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I have to admit that i can understand where your aversion against NU players comes from considering highly  decorated players get swept by Pikachu and Omastar. No idea why they would offer team building advise though.

 

Fucked up an edit, derp.

Edited by NOREButler
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I also want to point out that outside of revenge killing, Dugtrio can come on field through its partner's moves such as U-Turn and Teleport, or it can double switch.  Now double switching Dug into a mon you can trap is a skill and the player should be rewarded, but this reward should come in the form of gaining momentum rather than winning the lottery by taking out an entire pokemon.

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On 8/6/2021 at 9:19 AM, suigin said:

I just played a match using a defensive team in where out of the 6 chances to 2hko a Nasty Plot Gengar (massive threat to my team) I got Cursed Body'd immediately after every time and due to the cycle we were stuck in it eventually got back to out of 2hko range again and risked itself stupidly once again and pretty much got a kill every time because I just couldn't revenge kill it without having to retreat after nailing a hit due to my move that could hit it being locked.
What was the reasoning behind it again? To fit in with the games? The ones that had Fairy types turn its poison typing into a serious boon and on top of that gave him one of the most broken forms in the history of the game? Or maybe the games without said broken form but with a Gigantamax form instead?  @Rache can you remind me why this change was made? Did it make PVE better? Did it make PVP better? If it didn't noticeably make them better can you revert it to Levitate? Hell I'm willing to see how Levitate+Nasty Plot behave if that's the issue.

 

And like I said in my previous post, plenty of times I've had the same situation happen to me where my own Gengar procced Cursed Body on my opponent allowing me to set up a win condition pretty much for free when playing a more offensive team. Really not a fan of this change.

 

I know everyone wants to carry on with the same Duggy discussion we've been having since 2015 but maybe if we all yell hard enough at the people in charge we can get something small like this to change.

sorry to answer you late

now that I have finished talking about dugtrio I can answer you

I also have the impression that there is a problem with cursed body not only on gengar but even on jellicent

by experience I have won lots of games and lost lots of games just because of or thanks to cursed body

 

I am not the solution, I was told that cursed only had 30% proc, I have the impression that it proc more than 30%
if i had given a solution i would vote to reduce the
cursed body proc

 

I am going to ask the other tc what they think of it even if some do not play OU ...

Edited by MadaraSixSix
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14 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

sorry to answer you late

now that I have finished talking about dugtrio I can answer you

I also have the impression that there is a problem with cursed body not only on gengar but even on jellicent

by experience I have won lots of games and lost lots of games just because of or thanks to cursed body

 

I am not the solution, I was told that cursed only had 30% proc, I have the impression that it proc more than 30%
if i had given a solution i would vote to reduce the
cursed body proc

 

I am going to ask the other tc what they think of it even if some do not play OU ...

You are telling that to the player who want to ban scald xD

 

but that’s true that move with 30% secondary effect proc really a lot, not only curse body, scald body slam discharge too..

everyone here would be triggered to lose due to this 30% but in the others case if you win with that you are happy (or lucky ?)

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2 hours ago, Mkns1070 said:

You are telling that to the player who want to ban scald xD

 

but that’s true that move with 30% secondary effect proc really a lot, not only curse body, scald body slam discharge too..

everyone here would be triggered to lose due to this 30% but in the others case if you win with that you are happy (or lucky ?)

No, I'm disgusted by it too. Hence why I first complained about it when my own Gengar was letting me set something else up by disabling a mon using Cursed Body allowing me to win the game.

 

Yeah I hate scald but it's a completely different dynamic to Cursed Body.

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13 hours ago, Zymogen said:

Tell that to my Jellicent who didn’t get a single cursed body proc in 10 consecutive turns in my final vs @camilo7 ?

yes i remember that match but when the game decides you lose then you will lose

 

10 hours ago, Mkns1070 said:

You are telling that to the player who want to ban scald xD

 

but that’s true that move with 30% secondary effect proc really a lot, not only curse body, scald body slam discharge too..

everyone here would be triggered to lose due to this 30% but in the others case if you win with that you are happy (or lucky ?)

I don't have to agree with everything he says,

 

you can't really compare cursed body and scald ...
scald and especially annoying for physical pokemon, will be less annoying for pokemon with guts, disharge does not para electrick pokemon ect
cursed body will affect the phy and special pokemon, the pokemon with one move, the scarf, the choice band ect

and once again for playing a lot OU, playing a lot scald, disharge curse body

curse body a proc much more often than burn or para

 

I may be delusional, but it is my impression as a player OU

 

@suigin 

one tc told me that "gengar was not broken so it didn't matter that he with cursed body"

I have to join him on that, gengar or jellicent are not broken pokemon, so even with this ability it's still legit I think

 

I personally don't like this ability either.
but i think all tc find this ability normal
 

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