RysPicz Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 12 minutes ago, NikhilR said: Can you share with us the breakdown of the votes of each member? To an outsider it is bad optics when you have 4 members of the TC who belong to the same team and can therefore have a huge influence on the votes. EDIT: Also what are the current activity levels of members like Zebra, Tyrone, and BlueBreath ingame? Tyrone logs in but doesn't play comp afaik. I'll address Madara's post later on when I will be off work, brutally busy lately razimove, NikhilR, Makarovs and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Munya Posted August 2, 2021 Author Share Posted August 2, 2021 I do not disclose votes, they can if they wish to. There were only two votes from a single team on a single stance, which is as little as their could be without a third option. Link to comment
Mkns1070 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 2 hours ago, YourAngst said: yo so im here too, i mostly ghost these type of forums just to see what ppl think and say about pvp in general, i don t play nu or uu but i also look at dugtrio as being unhealty for the meta ,anyway im here to ask one thing do Tier Council members even play pvp? I mean any tier not only nu or uu and so on, do they play pvp? I ask that as a genuine question cuz i really don t know but then i come here and see these ill ask again do ppl from TC play pvp at all ? I want to know ,also as far as logic goes TC should go towards the community opinion and not have members that are like ''ye if i don t like it its a ban but if you don t like it ? bad luck kido'' is thats the case why do we even have a TC? just make anything ban/nerf related a voting process lol I play every tier, I always teambuild for myself. And if you want to check I already won tournaments in all tier. I never vote without knowing what I’m doing, and if I’m not sure about something, I’ll not follow other friends or members , I’ll take time to play and find a answer by myself. i didn’t speak a lot in the forum but I’m always reading ppl’s opinions, debate with PvP players and try to be the most objective as possible if it can help you to know who I am Quinn010, Redalie and epicdavenport 3 Link to comment
bingonb Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 Well, I won 2 matches in wc4 with Dugtrio. In fact, it is the high usage of Blaziken and Typhlosion that force me to use Dugtrio. ppl who think Dugtrio brings them unhappiness should think about the Blaziken and Typhlosion. it's hard to switch when face Blaziken because u-turn gives him flexibility and cc and fb give him strength. if switch wrongly, well, the team is easy to be destroyed. While if switch well, the Blaziken can switch without any cost. So does the Typhlosion with choice specs, well, let's all bring the slowking! if you are the user of these two pokemons, pls think about which pokemon breaks the NU environment firstly. if you are not the user of these two pokemons...imagine that my friend. you are using Espeon. and why Dugtrio can trap and kill you? ok, your espeon's hp must be lower than 80% and that means there was an exchange of fire between espeon and the opponent. Before the Dugtrio switchs on, the whole team had been hit seriously. then the Dugtrio switchs on, kills the espeon and his mission is completed. But espeon has destroyed his team too. of course, it is suitable to not only espeon, but also Zoroark, ambipom and so on. So before you taste the bitterness the Dugtrio brings you, think about the pressure your Dugtrio-fearing pokemons bring your opponent. I think it is the higher usage of Blaziken and Typhlosion that makes the usage and the winning rate higher. RysPicz, LeJovi and Quinn010 3 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, bingonb said: Well, I won 2 matches in wc4 with Dugtrio. In fact, it is the high usage of Blaziken and Typhlosion that force me to use Dugtrio. ppl who think Dugtrio brings them unhappiness should think about the Blaziken and Typhlosion. it's hard to switch when face Blaziken because u-turn gives him flexibility and cc and fb give him strength. if switch wrongly, well, the team is easy to be destroyed. While if switch well, the Blaziken can switch without any cost. So does the Typhlosion with choice specs, well, let's all bring the slowking! if you are the user of these two pokemons, pls think about which pokemon breaks the NU environment firstly. if you are not the user of these two pokemons...imagine that my friend. you are using Espeon. and why Dugtrio can trap and kill you? ok, your espeon's hp must be lower than 80% and that means there was an exchange of fire between espeon and the opponent. Before the Dugtrio switchs on, the whole team had been hit seriously. then the Dugtrio switchs on, kills the espeon and his mission is completed. But espeon has destroyed his team too. of course, it is suitable to not only espeon, but also Zoroark, ambipom and so on. So before you taste the bitterness the Dugtrio brings you, think about the pressure your Dugtrio-fearing pokemons bring your opponent. I think it is the higher usage of Blaziken and Typhlosion that makes the usage and the winning rate higher. As much as I understand your arguments about Typh and Blaziken, keeping one uncompetitive pokemon in the tier to check other potentially broken mons is not an answer (to be completely honest I also do perceive Blaziken as a potentially OP mon in the current NU metagame, but that's a topic for another time. Typh is totally fine, though). On 8/1/2021 at 7:30 PM, MadaraSixSix said: without thinking too much, just from my experience as a pvp player it seemed to me more restrictive to have to play against wobbufet than against a dugtrio, simply because wobbufet little trap almost everyone and that he has very good deffance that he has a specific set that he make strong I say "strong" the or dugtrio I say it again I find it average so i will not compare these two pokemon. my example in relation to drapion and a common example that I made on purpose to take because drapion is a common pokemon, it is one argument among many others, it is not the main one I personally played a CB blaziken during the psl team, I also saw whatever player played it CB, but I think players prefer it to be played scarf dugtrio or not, then why would everyone want to play spec pokemon or CB which are weak a dugtrio you little played CB Water or fly type for example I spoke of the elec type for precisely showing that the poke sol does not even trap weak pokemon to itself, you say that dugtrio is negative for the meta it's your opinion, but not mine i signed up with tc to do things that I think is right, if something seems abused I will be for the ban if something seems legit to me I will vote for it, so no I'm not going to listen to the community blindly, " if all the players say olalalal the stall is bad for the games, i would say no it's their opinion not mine "same things with dugtrio on the other hand if you proved to me that I am wrong and that the pokemon is very harmful for the strategy I little changed my vote I am not just one blocked but for the moment I believe to be in the right one I'll end up keeping it simple, I'll always be to ban broken or too strong pokemon in my opinion, for example garchomp sword dance, porygon z in UU, but when it comes to cute little dugtrio who doesn't destroy any team of his own alone, this ability is boring according to what I read the stall is also boring for certain players, should you ban it? I think arena trap + dugtrio is a different ability from other abilities but it is not broken Sorry for late response but I've been stupidly busy lately. I'm not comparing Wobbu and Dug usability-wise. I compared their base stats to give you an example that not necessarily they determine whether or not a pokemon should be banned. I don't see Drapion really being very common. Very common are Slowbro, Rotom, Venusaur and Blaziken and none of them are getting trapped and killed by Dugtrio unless heavily damaged (even Blaziken, as 75% of the time it has Scarf). Check all top usage mons- we are restricted in using same pokemons over and over so our walls/ sweepers won't get trapped and killed by it. There are only few exceptions (Typh and Drapion, I don't want to include Golem as it has Sturdy). Playing a surprising set/ different set in PSL or World Cup is totally different than playing in matchmaking. Would you run a CB Blaziken in matchmaking, where 1/8 teams got a Dugtrio? In PSL or WC you can scout your opponent, check if s/he was using Dugtrio at some point and prepare accordingly. I don't really understand the "opinion" of Dugtrio's unhealthiness for the tier. This isn't an opinion- it's a fact, that this pokemon restricts people from teambuilding around pokemons that can get trapped and killed and as long as it's in the tier, most of those pokemons will not see the daylight. This isn't how a healthy metagame should look like. I appreciate your approach when it comes to making decisions as TC and I really wish all people on your board would follow a similar principle. But don't misunderstand: you are supposed to make decision to benefit the players, and right now, large amount of them wants Dugtrio banned and we are not talking here about 300-400 ELO players, but decorated veterans that know what they are talking about. We disagree with the term of "broken pokemon" regarding Chomp and Pory as well. From what I see, a pokemon is "broken" for you when it destroys walls. Dugtrio does not do that- it supports the walls by removing sweepers. It is not an offensive uber, it's a support uber. It will never destroy an entire team on it's own, but it will support the team to a degree that another mon will actually sweep. And I don't see anyone saying that this ability is "boring". Stall is boring, yes, but I can bring stallbreakers as a counterplay. For Dugtrio's Arena Trap there is no counterplay. I get trapped and killed without being able to do anything. Edited August 3, 2021 by RysPicz I embarris. NOREButler, razimove, Quinn010 and 5 others 8 Link to comment
MadaraSixSix Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 13 hours ago, RysPicz said: As much as I understand your arguments about Typh and Blaziken, keeping one uncompetitive pokemon in the tier to check other potentially broken mons is not an answer (to be completely honest I also do perceive Blaziken as a potentially OP mon in the current NU metagame, but that's a topic for another time. Typh is totally fine, though). Sorry for late response but I've been stupidly busy lately. I'm not comparing Wobbu and Dug usability-wise. I compared their base stats to give you an example that not necessarily they determine whether or not a pokemon should be banned. I don't see Drapion really being very common. Very common are Slowbro, Rotom, Venusaur and Blaziken and none of them are getting trapped and killed by Dugtrio unless heavily damaged (even Blaziken, as 75% of the time it has Scarf). Check all top usage mons- we are restricted in using same pokemons over and over so our walls/ sweepers won't get trapped and killed by it. There are only few exceptions (Typh and Drapion, I don't want to include Golem as it has Sturdy). Playing a surprising set/ different set in PSL or World Cup is totally different than playing in matchmaking. Would you run a CB Blaziken in matchmaking, where 1/8 teams got a Dugtrio? In PSL or WC you can scout your opponent, check if s/he was using Dugtrio at some point and prepare accordingly. I don't really understand the "opinion" of Dugtrio's unhealthiness for the tier. This isn't an opinion- it's a fact, that this pokemon restricts people from teambuilding around pokemons that can get trapped and killed and as long as it's in the tier, most of those pokemons will not see the daylight. This isn't how a healthy metagame should look like. I appreciate your approach when it comes to making decisions as TC and I really wish all people on your board would follow a similar principle. But don't misunderstand: you are supposed to make decision to benefit the players, and right now, large amount of them wants Dugtrio banned and we are not talking here about 300-400 ELO players, but decorated veterans that know what they are talking about. We disagree with the term of "broken pokemon" regarding Chomp and Pory as well. From what I see, a pokemon is "broken" for you when it destroys walls. Dugtrio does not do that- it supports the walls by removing sweepers. It is not an offensive uber, it's a support uber. It will never destroy an entire team on it's own, but it will support the team to a degree that another mon will actually sweep. And I don't see anyone saying that this ability is "boring". Stall is boring, yes, but I can bring stallbreakers as a counterplay. For Dugtrio's Arena Trap there is no counterplay. I get trapped and killed without being able to do anything. I don't say "very" I just said common for drapion, I do not understand where you want to come from there, in all the thirds there are pokemon more used than others in OU and UU too, there is indeed a part of the player who always plays the same pokemon, he plays the meta is what works best, but before dugtrio it was also doing you could see 80% of the team made up of the 3 starter because it worked well before the 3 starter played a lot gigalith + sctouland and roserade ect ect ect for the psl team, I played 3 times vs dugtrio, 3 times I won, the 3 times the dugtrio was ussless, even the time when I played blaziken band I was vs dugtrio, but advairsaire was the 3 good players, and I played twice offense and once balance, I played original team and not filled top third, so the conclusion is that I played teams with poke not necessarily top third, and that does not my not prevented from playing games or performing (I have proof of what I'm saying on video, if you doubt me) (ah and I couldn't guess that I was going to play vs dugtrio because I played vs real advairsaire who learned to change team or teambuild new things) me and other players can build teams without being generated by dugtrio, and even if you trap and kill a pokemon by dugtrio you can still take it into consideration and have something that will set up vs dugtrio, dugtrio doesn't do not prevent playing games .. I am going to repeat myself but my goal is to take a right desicion, if a large part of the community is wrong I will not listen, if this same community proves me that I am wrong I listen, it is very simple for me, for the moment this is not the case, and the decorated player is not always right no my definition of broken pokemon, is not equal to wallbreaker, garchomp threatened as much the wall as mega offense, same for pz "uber support" defined as you want it but for me there is nothing uber or broken you little brought wallbreakers against the stall, just like you little brought pokemon not week a dugtrio Link to comment
suigin Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 hi can you get rid of all the rng you added in the past year to ou? thanks it's the one thing i really don't like about the tier rn Luke, RysPicz, Quinn010 and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment
Quinn010 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 4 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said: uber support" defined as you want it but for me there is nothing uber or broken A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. this is legit what dugtrio does lol CaptnBaklava, NOREButler, RysPicz and 4 others 7 Link to comment
Munya Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 How is it consistent though, like how are you factoring that because, while I'll concede lot on usage arguments, consistency is one thing usage will show, as it pulls actual numbers. The thing has a 51% win rate, and its used a measly 11% of the time last month, I haven't looked at this month yet since its so early and not much data has been pulled but maybe it changed. Either way, thats hardly consistent. Consistently average maybe. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 11 minutes ago, Munya said: How is it consistent though, like how are you factoring that because, while I'll concede lot on usage arguments, consistency is one thing usage will show, as it pulls actual numbers. The thing has a 51% win rate, and its used a measly 11% of the time last month, I haven't looked at this month yet since its so early and not much data has been pulled but maybe it changed. Either way, thats hardly consistent. Consistently average maybe. I'm really tired of explaining this over, and over and over again. TohnR and CaptnBaklava 2 Link to comment
Munya Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 1 minute ago, RysPicz said: I'm really tired of explaining this over, and over and over again. Except this is a completely different argument than what you typically make, this is about consistency, you can't say something is consistent and have it not show. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Munya said: Except this is a completely different argument than what you typically make, this is about consistency, you can't say something is consistent and have it not show. I actually can. Situation when Dugtrio removes a mon but still loses because the rest of the team is shit/ player is bad. Ban delibird. It's consistent (14/20 winrate). Seriously, stop trying to use usage/ winrate as an argument, especially if you're staff, because this is making you look like you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about Munyu. If you want to defend a pokemon, use damage calcs, provide specific situations from fights to prove your point. For your own sake. suigin, Zymogen, Quinn010 and 6 others 9 Link to comment
Munya Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 Thats not consistent then, thats a player is good. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Munya said: Thats not consistent then, thats a player is good. Thanks! Link to comment
Imperial Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 23 minutes ago, Munya said: Thats not consistent then, thats a player is good. Just as info Dugtrio was used in a team which won the most recent NU tournament. Link to comment
xXBlu3BreathXx Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 On 8/1/2021 at 4:05 PM, Poufilou said: From what I read from Rys, if you replace the word "broken" by "not fun to play", it makes way more sense. But is still a individual point of view. Assuming those arguments are subjective is a first step to have a healthier debate ? I would like to stress this point, Dugtrio is a very unhealthy mon to have in the game full stop. It gets banned in some way or another in pretty much every gen on smogon (apart from gen 3 iirc). Removing autonomy from a player results in that player having a sour experience, I'd argue Dugtrio in any gen or tier could find a way to abuse this. While Dugtrio appears to not be performing that great that is irrelevant, Dugtrio is just there to remove some specific threat(s) to open up a sweep. Sure you can setup right away when it secures a kill (e.g. flying mon on locked eq) but the Dugtrio player decides if they want that to happen. If anything Arena Trap is the culprit in all of this, you could argue to revert Dugtrio's base attack nerf and to ban/nerf Arena Trap from the game after as some sort of solution. However, Dugtrio is currently NU and it would seem a bit weird to do something so drastic to a mon in that tier. In regards to my inactivity I guess I'm just bored of playing mons at the moment, there hasn't been any significant updates in a long while and I couldn't bring myself to keep repeating the same stuff over and over. Should I still be in the tc? I don't really know but I still lurk from time to time and gather my own opinion on things so take that as you will. Quinn010, Zymogen, pachima and 8 others 10 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 On 8/2/2021 at 3:19 PM, NikhilR said: Can you share with us the breakdown of the votes of each member? To an outsider it is bad optics when you have 4 members of the TC who belong to the same team and can therefore have a huge influence on the votes. It just struck me. Judging from what they wrote in this thread, Pachi, JJ and BlueBreath voted for dug's departure. If vote ended with a split then this gives us a clear conclusion and most likely, your concerns are more than valid Nik. Appears we will end up playing a meta the way sia wants it. Zymogen and AnRae 2 Link to comment
Luke Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 5 hours ago, suigin said: hi can you get rid of all the rng you added in the past year to ou? thanks it's the one thing i really don't like about the tier rn How will the skill-less noobs ever manage to beat the good players in the tier!!? It has to stay!! suigin, Huargensy, YourAngst and 4 others 7 Link to comment
MadaraSixSix Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 1 hour ago, RysPicz said: I actually can. Situation when Dugtrio removes a mon but still loses because the rest of the team is shit/ player is bad. so most of the players who use dugtrio do not know team build or do not know how to play ? this logic sucks, you can apply it to all pokemon if the players have bad team builds when they use dugtrio it could be precisely because of dugtrio ? Link to comment
Munya Posted August 4, 2021 Author Share Posted August 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, RysPicz said: It just struck me. Judging from what they wrote in this thread, Pachi, JJ and BlueBreath voted for dug's departure. If vote ended with a split then this gives us a clear conclusion and most likely, your concerns are more than valid Nik. Appears we will end up playing a meta the way sia wants it. Except you are wrong, there are people from that team that voted on each side. Link to comment
MadaraSixSix Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 16 minutes ago, RysPicz said: It just struck me. Judging from what they wrote in this thread, Pachi, JJ and BlueBreath voted for dug's departure. If vote ended with a split then this gives us a clear conclusion and most likely, your concerns are more than valid Nik. Appears we will end up playing a meta the way sia wants it. this will be the last time that I say it, I vote alone, and not in team, my team they are my friends, but that is not why I listen to them on certain subject, I was in disagreement with them on the porygon z and I still am by the way porygon z was banned? Link to comment
Quinn010 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Munya said: How is it consistent though, like how are you factoring that because, while I'll concede lot on usage arguments, consistency is one thing usage will show, as it pulls actual numbers. The thing has a 51% win rate, and its used a measly 11% of the time last month, I haven't looked at this month yet since its so early and not much data has been pulled but maybe it changed. Either way, thats hardly consistent. Consistently average maybe. its consitent in what it needs to do for example it can support a mono psy setup mon really easily from all dark types the right dugtrio set trap them all and ko them. (if they use like 2/3 dark types you have a problem but then the tembuild is just bad) dugtrio can consistently trap the dark type users to let the mono psyshic mon sweep the only problem is honchkrow so that makes a little inconsistent. But honchkrow is from all dark types the mon you can easily chip down cuz its weak to rocks and physical attacker so take chip from helmet so it cant come in a lot. my point is unlike other support mons dugtrio never fail in what it needs to do since you cant avoid it if your trapped the mon its gone. Edited August 4, 2021 by Quinn010 my english bad but i tried XD RysPicz 1 Link to comment
Mkns1070 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 16 minutes ago, Quinn010 said: its consitent in what it needs to do for example it can support a mono psy setup mon really easily from all dark types the right dugtrio set trap them all and ko them. (if they use like 2/3 dark types you have a problem but then the tembuild is just bad) dugtrio can consistently trap the dark type users to let the mono psyshic mon sweep the only problem is honchkrow so that makes a little inconsistent. But honchkrow is from all dark types the mon you can easily chip down cuz its weak to rocks and physical attacker so take chip from helmet so it cant come in a lot. my point is unlike other support mons dugtrio never fail in what it needs to do since you cant avoid it if your trapped the mon its gone. Absol ? Link to comment
Quinn010 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Mkns1070 said: Absol ? +1 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 139-165 (99.2 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Edited August 4, 2021 by Quinn010 Link to comment
Mkns1070 Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Quinn010 said: +1 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 139-165 (99.2 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock ??? 252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 111-132 (100.9 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO LeZenor, HumongousNoodle, MadaraSixSix and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Recommended Posts