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August-Movement Discussion Thread


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Speaking for myself as a Tier Council member, but not FOR the Tier Council I want to share my thoughts on Dugtrio.

 

First, Dugtrio is and always will be an annoyance in the competitive Pokemon world, namely because of its ability Arena Trap. This ability allows it to "trap" a wide range of viable Pokemon, either accumulating damage, outright killing, or allowing for set-up by way of Stealth Rocks, Memento, Toxic-stall, or something else.

 

Over the course of its history, Arena Trap has undergone several modifications by GameFreak. When it was first introduced, the only Pokemon immune to its effect were Flying-types and those with the ability Levitate. Now, any Ghost-type is also immune and items have been introduced to negate its effect (i.e. Shed Shell).

 

The primary user of the ability Arena Trap is Dugtrio, a Ground-type pokemon that has incredible speed and had to be nerfed in PokeMMO due to enhanced power (Attack BP reduced from 100 --> 80). It has an incredibly broad moveset, but despite this, simply needs a few options to be successful. Throughout PokeMMO history, Dugtrio has frequently been targeted for a potential ban in several tiers and has been previously banned when it became too unhealthy for the Overused tier (trap kill Blissey and Snorlax, get swept by Special sweeper).


Today, Dugtrio has such poor usage in every tier, that it has fallen to the Neverused tier, where it has an incredible speed advantage over most. Upon its first introduction, usage was reasonable and then slowly dropped. Its win percentage was mediocre and less than 50%. An entire competitive season had passed, and only the few players who lost outright due to a Dugtrio advantage continued to complain. Unfortunately now, players are catching on to Dugtrio and the new season has seen a slight uptick in its usage, now 10-11%. Its win percentage has also increased to 50-51%, rivaling some of the top used Pokemon.

 

What does this mean? Well it means that Dugtrio may have found its niche in NU. Is it broken? Some seem to think so, others outright laugh at Dugtrio when they come upon it on the battle field.

 

What has it done to the tier? Well with any big shift comes big changes. Currently there are 17 Pokemon above 10% usage in NU, compared to the 21 in both UU and OU. Then comparing the usage less than 10% but above the cut-off, NU has 20 Pokemon listed, UU 21, and OU 20.  So in comparison, it does not appear that there are any significant differences between each of the tiers, which could be assumed that Dugtrio is not restricting the field more than the other tiers. A counter-argument could and probably should be made though, that NU should be the most diverse tier and should have more viable options being used.

 

Thus, from the outside looking in, Dugtrio seems to be just fine. Mid-to-low usage with an average win-rate.


But speaking as an NU player, I also recognize how detrimental Dugtrio is to teambuilding. Certain offensive options are negated by Dugtrio and by glancing at the usage, we can only see two grounded Electric-types above the cut-off; Manectric which is primarily played with a choice-scarf and Pikachu, which is commonly mixed with Extremespeed. All other electric-types with usage have the ability Levitate (Rotom and Eelektross). Regarding Fire-types, only Houndoom (priority Sucker-punch), Typhlosion (Choice Scarf), and Magmortar (barely above the cut-off) are viable. Poison, Steel, Ground and Rock-types are exclusively bulky, have a life-saving ability, or have a second ability that makes them neutral to Earthquake. 

 

With all of that said, I can see how Dugtrio has a negative affect on the tier. Is it offensively broken? No. Is it defensively broken? Oh God no. Is it broken for its support characteristics? Could be. Is it unhealthy or uncompetitive? Probably the most likely option of the three. 

 

 

 

tl;dr I think Dugtrio sucks, but it is probably hurting the NU tier.

 

 

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Dugduo is the forgotten pre-evolution of Dugtrio. It sports improved base states when compared to Diglett, but unfortunately lacks the Ability of its kin: Arena Trap. We anticipate implementation of this pokemon SoonTM

 

Jokes, I flexxx I flexxx

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Historically, complex bans were always avoided like the plague because they would set a precedent that would be difficult to follow... but seeing as this precedent has already been set by the hydreigon, garchomp and wobbuffet nerfs, it begs the question: why can’t diglett/dugtrio just lose arena trap?
 

Dugtrio doesn’t sweep through teams singlehandedly like the aforementioned do, but it has an uncompetitive and frankly stupid ability that completely changes the dynamic of battles and invalidates several viable pokemon in every tier without even being sent out from its ball. Just get rid of it please. 

Edited by Zymogen
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46 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Historically, complex bans were always avoided like the plague because they would set a precedent that would be difficult to follow... but seeing as this precedent has already been set by the hydreigon, garchomp and wobbuffet nerfs, it begs the question: why can’t diglett/dugtrio just lose arena trap?
 

Dugtrio doesn’t sweep through teams singlehandedly like the aforementioned do, but it has an uncompetitive and frankly stupid ability that completely changes the dynamic of battles and invalidates several viable pokemon in every tier without even being sent out from its ball. Just get rid of it please. 

If it is given, in this case it is not a complex prohibition, only sand trap is banned

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50 minutes ago, Munya said:

Unfortunately for those of you wanting it banned, dugtrio votes keep ending up as a dead split down the middle every time it comes up so it doesn't look like anything is happening this month with it.

why is there an even number of members in the tc if decisions are based largely on votes?

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3 hours ago, Munya said:

Unfortunately for those of you wanting it banned, dugtrio votes keep ending up as a dead split down the middle every time it comes up so it doesn't look like anything is happening this month with it.

I understand that the Tier Council members may be scared of public backlash, but we've seen balanced and transparent arguments from Pachima and DoubleJ about Dugtrio, I would like to hear feedback from the people who continue voting for it to stay in the meta with Arena Trap.

 

At the very least it would be good to hear a public discussion like the podcasts which I thought were going to be a thing.

Edited by Imperial
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12 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Why is Dugtrio unacceptable in NU specifically, but totally fine in UU/OU?

It's cancer everywhere and this is why we are targetting Arena Trap instead of Dugtrio. Maybe we're just too used to moving mons instead of banning/ nerfing abilities. Right now thanks to our incredibly competent, knowledgable and highly vocal TC (and I can't believe that the only person from them with balls to talk to us and discuss his opinions is JJ) any discussion is pointless because this cancer is supposed to stay in NU anyway. I guess we would need to start creating countless threads again like we did with king's rock to actually achieve some positive changes.

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19 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Why is Dugtrio unacceptable in NU specifically, but totally fine in UU/OU?

its not. But last time you tried to nerf something (SD garchomp) where the problem was clearly in OU, it was also removed from doubles and PVE. So, to save work arguing about other tiers, we just need to focus on one since if a possible nerf happens, it will affect everything else.

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