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July-Movement Discussion Thread


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4 hours ago, Imperial said:

 

  • Blaziken
  • Magmortar
  • Typhlosion
  • Drapion
  • Houndoom
  • Manectric

 

 

 

 

most of those mons are hit and run and it has already been seen in previous metas that's garbage

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, MiraiZura said:

most of those mons are hit and run and it has already been seen in previous metas that's garbage

yes but they can't run if they're trapped by arena trap 🥴 not only are they all slower than dugtrio, literally only 2 of those mons can use either volt switch or u-turn, 1 of which is useless against ground types, so what is your point exactly?

 

dugtrio forces all of these mons to play a certain way without even being present on the field. none of these mons can claim a kill without being immediately revenge killed. if a single ability (note: ability, not pokemon) is able to completely change the dynamic of a game, without even leaving the pokeball, then i dont see how it can be healthy

Edited by Zymogen
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Posted (edited)

Let me share my personal opinions of Dugtrio.
First of all, I really love the way Zymogen has explained why this Mon isn't healthy for the tier. (I can even agree it is also not healthy in any tier, but the way it stands in NU currently is just more problematic than in other tiers) 
 

For the sake of usage itself, I'll consider the 42 most used Pokemon last month. In other words, anything 4+% usage. 

Dugtrio has 3 viable trapping sets, although it can do more with a support variant to rock/memento/etc. It has lackluster defenses, but it is equipped with a perfect typing and speed for the optimal job: Trapping, that is able to trap whatever it wants to trap, reliably.

 

 

List of Pokemon Choice Band Dugtrio traps

 

Spoiler

Clefable

Zoroark

Steelix *

Houndoom

Drapion

Typhlosion

Golem

Nidoqueen

Gallade

Espeon
Manectric

Pikachu

Omastar

Magmortar

 

Note it is also able to finish off slightly weakened threats, such as Offensive Venusaur/Kangaskhan, and although it doesn't trap the following, it is able to pressure and beat Rotom/Froslass once Hazard damage has been put into effect.

 

* - May or may not trap depending on spread.

Summary: 14 Pokemon effortlessly trapped, under common conditions + Pressure on at least 4 opposing Pokemon, under more niche conditions such as prior weakening.

 

List of Pokemon Choice Scarf Dugtrio traps

 

Spoiler

Blaziken

Houndoom

Typhlosion

Nidoqueen

Manectric

Pikachu

Magmortar

 

More restrictive than Scarf, but gains the potential of Trapping Scarf Blaziken, the most common scar user in the tier. It also is able to trap some other Pokemon listed in the Band section, although not as reliably (EX: Non-boosted item Espeon/Zoroark). Scarf also has the niche of trapping an already set Omastar.

 

List of Pokemon Sash Dugtrio traps

 

Spoiler

The most common used item. Not optimal as a trapping Mon, but also allows for a more supportive approach.

Here I will not take rocks into account, for one major reason: Any player that has Sash in their Dugtrio should, whenever as possible, send it once they clean the field. In other words strong hazard cleaning partners are used, and therefore it only makes sense to disregard them in this case.

 

Venusaur *

Clefable *

Zoroark (Except sucker punch versions)

Houndoom

Drapion

Typhlosion

Golem

Nidoqueen

Espeon
Manectric

Pikachu

Omastar

Magmortar

 

* - Only with Screech variant

 

Note that Sash Dugtrio can effectively trap Absol/Gallade with any prior damage, the latter in case it doesn't possess Drain Punch.

 

The main difference between Sash/Choice Band, imo, is that although Sash Traps potentially even more threats, it requires absolute hazard clean support. On the other hand, Sash allows for more risky plays against threats that it is able to ohko at will. 

 

 

 

For obvious reasons, I will ignore meme sets that further boost its trapping capacity such as Specs Earth Power or Sash hidden power fire to trap the likes of Steelix/Escavalier. 

 

In sum, Dugtrio is able to beat almost half of the common tier, while effortlessly trapping more than one third of it. This creates a negative mentality and unhealthy pressure to any of the stated Pokemon, just like Zymogen kindly explained perfectly, while also preventing effective teambuilding, since Dugtrio alone helps any team to get rid of any Weakness they inherently possess.

 

Furthermore, I also believe Dugtrio is overcentralizing, and has shifted the tier negatively. For instance, Houndoom and Drapion were top 5 Pokemon before it dropped, and now they are #14 and #20 respectively. Other trapped Pokemon like Typhlosion, Espeon and Zoroark have also dropped, and less relevantly Manectric. On the other hand, Pokemon that inherently immune to the trap or don't mind it have increased a lot.

 

Finally, allow me to speak to the community. I don't agree with Munya's statistical approach, but I can understand it. Because of this I'd like the community to know that any extra feedback helps us discuss more eventual issues, not only bringing us any new issue we have not considered yet, but also to help us discuss already considered issues with new perspectives.

 

Please add only constructive criticism, because otherwise it will not be considered, for obvious reasons. However, and I'll repeat once again, any explained input and reasoning is considered in our inner discussions, and that is why I'd welcome you, the community, to share more openly any concern you may have regarding eventual issues.

 

TLDR; Voice your opinions. If you believe they are worth discussing, explain why. It may not look like but they are always considered and they vastly help some of us sharing different perspectives regarding any issue we face. 

 

 

Thank you all. 

Edited by pachima
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Posted (edited)

Taking advantage of the moment, I will express my thoughts about Dugtrio.

 

I honestly don't like Dugtrio's way of playing, I always have to think of a way not to fall into Dugtrio's clutches, who can easily kill the main stars of my team without difficulty and without suffering damage depending on the item he carries, it's difficult for you can't kill a wall or any pokemon in general at an important point in the game because your wincon dies to Dugtrio in the next round, I honestly don't think Dugtrio is healthy. In fact, I think Dugtrio is healthy.

 

*The Arena Trap not*

 

Edited by Matthzinxl
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All of this is so wrong, @pachima.

 

On 7/3/2021 at 10:09 AM, pachima said:

For the sake of usage itself, I'll consider the 42 most used Pokemon last month. In other words, anything 4+% usage. 

Sure, let's go for that arbitrary 4% usage. Not 4.36% which is the reference point for the past 7 years. Let's go with 4% usage in order for Magmortar and Omastar to sneak into your analysis. 

 

 

On 7/3/2021 at 10:09 AM, pachima said:

Dugtrio has 3 viable trapping sets, although it can do more with a support variant to rock/memento/etc. It has lackluster defenses, but it is equipped with a perfect typing and speed for the optimal job: Trapping, that is able to trap whatever it wants to trap, reliably.

First of all, let's get something clear. Sash Dugtrio is the most viable set on Dugtrio and usage reflects that. Please stop it with the Choice Band bullshit. It's playable, but it's definetly not what the main concern when it comes to Dugtrio in NU. Let's look at your list for Choice Band.

 

Quote

 

Clefable

Zoroark

Steelix *

Houndoom

Drapion

Typhlosion

Golem

Nidoqueen

Gallade

Espeon
Manectric

Pikachu

Omastar

Magmortar

 

There isn't a single pokemon on that list that let Dugtrio come in for free, so it's for Dugtrio to trap these mons it is absolutely not as effortless as you make it seem.

 

Then there is a big issue. There should be an asterix next to most of these mons and some should straight up not appear here at all:

 

  • Clefable isn't necessarily going to sit there passively and do nothing to retaliate agaisnt Dugtrio. Some Calm Clefable run Cosmic Power and, since it's impossible for that set to kill anything without set up first, this means Dugtrio CB can't RK this Clefable. It may double switch into it or require some u-turn/volt switch/teleport support in order to come in play, but it certainly doesn't come in for free. There is also Modest Clefable which simply kill Dugtrio with Ice Beam. And then we have Bold Clefable that doesn't care about Dugtrio at all. So please put a huge asterix next to Clefable.
  • Zoroark doesn't necessarily fear Dugtrio, since you may not know you are facing a Zoroark. Some Zoroark are played with Choice Scarf or Sash and are extremely close to a guaranteed OHKO on Dugtrio (any prior dmg would be enough). In the case of Choice Scarf, the flinch factor from Dark Pulse adds on top of the potential OHKO on Dugtrio. Zoroak also has access to U-turn which can help it avoid gettign trapped in the first place and may also run Sucker Punch which can OHKO Dugtrio if Life Orb with a lot of investment in Atk. U-turn and Sucker Punch are not super common, but they have been played more in July tho. Anyhow, big asterix as well for Zoroark.
  • Steelix just doesn't give a crap about Dugtrio and should just be removed from your list.
  • Houndoom is kind of in a similar spot as Zoroak. The main difference is that it's less common to see a Sash or Choice Scarf Houndoom, but those definetly exist. Some play Substitute or Sucker Punch (which does not kill), but it's still something to watch out for. So, I agree that Houndoom should be listed without any asterix I guess.
  • Drapion, I agree.
  • Typhlosion, there is a decent amount of Typhlosion that are played Choice Scarf, so for sure there need to be an asterix there.
  • Golem has way too much going for it against Dugtrio. It has Sturdy so prior dmg is required. Golem is commonly played with Custap berry, so the amount of prior dmg has to be limited. If the plan is to trap Golem in Custap Range with Sucker Punch, that means Dugtrio will be locked on Sucker Punch which is both sad and terrible. Golem also has access to Sucker Punch, so Dugtrio can't come in play against Golem with little HP and trap it. Golem also has access to Rapid Spin (2 required, so quite unlikely) which could potentially prevent Dugtrio from Traping it. Anyhow, there need to be a huge asterix next to Golem if you want to list it imo.
  • Nidoqueen, sure.
  • Gallade is commonly played with Choice Scarf, so it definetly isn't trapped that easily. I was also surprised to find out that there is a small portion of Gallade that are also played with Sash, so that would also help against Dugtrio. Shadow Sneak can be interesting if Dugtrio is quite low. If Gallade has already done SD, Dugtrio can't revenge kill it since Shadow Sneak Life Orb will OHKO Dugtrio. Some Gallade are also played with Substitute or Bulk Up which also makes it hard for Dugtrio to trap it. Imo, there need to be a big asterix next to Gallade.
  • Espeon is extremely common with Choice Scarf, so Dugtrio won't be able to trap all of them. Some are also played with Substitute, so it won't necessarily be easy for Dugtrio to trap it. There need to be an asterix for Espeon as well.
  • Manectric just sucks ass. Even if 60% of Manectric are played with Choice Scarf, Overheat doesn't even kill Dugtrio. It deserves to get trapped, so no asterix.
  • Pikachu has a very decent chance of killing a full HP Dugtrio with Extreme Speed. So it should not be listed at all.
  • Magmortar and Omastar were below the 4.36% reference point, so you should not list them at all, but they would still need some asterix since CB Dugtrio doesn't RK a set up Omastar and will lose to any Omastar with Focus Sash and Dugtrio will also lose to Magmortar.

In summary, you list for CB Dugtrio should look like this imo:

Quote

Clefable*

Zoroark *

Houndoom

Drapion

Typhlosion*

Golem*

Nidoqueen

Gallade*

Espeon*
Manectric

Considering Dugtrio needs either a good amount of prediction or support to trap these, I simply can't see CB Dugtrio as a significant issue in NU. Out of the 39 mons in NU (June), 4 of them will lose to Dugtrio in the event they get trapped for free and 6 more maybe (not necessarily a good gamble) will lose to Dugtrio. 

 

Now, lets look at your list for Choice Scarf:

Quote

Blaziken

Houndoom

Typhlosion

Nidoqueen

Manectric

Pikachu

Magmortar

I don't have any issue with your Choice Scarf list (it's underwhelming as it should be), except for the fact that Pikachu and Magmortar should not be listed at all for reasons I already explained.


Let's look at the main Dugtrio, the set people should care about.

On 7/3/2021 at 10:09 AM, pachima said:

The most common used item. Not optimal as a trapping Mon, but also allows for a more supportive approach.

Here I will not take rocks into account, for one major reason: Any player that has Sash in their Dugtrio should, whenever as possible, send it once they clean the field. In other words strong hazard cleaning partners are used, and therefore it only makes sense to disregard them in this case.

Bold part is utter bullshit for the record. The main reason why hazards should be disregarded is because most of the time Sash Dugtrio is the one setting up rocks itself, so the mon Dugtrio is trapping didn't come into the Rocks. 

 

On 7/3/2021 at 10:09 AM, pachima said:

Venusaur *

Clefable *

Zoroark (Except sucker punch versions)

Houndoom

Drapion

Typhlosion

Golem

Nidoqueen

Espeon
Manectric

Pikachu

Omastar

Magmortar

 

* - Only with Screech variant

 

Note that Sash Dugtrio can effectively trap Absol/Gallade with any prior damage, the latter in case it doesn't possess Drain Punch.

 

The main difference between Sash/Choice Band, imo, is that although Sash Traps potentially even more threats, it requires absolute hazard clean support. On the other hand, Sash allows for more risky plays against threats that it is able to ohko at will. 

I don't know what you have been smoking or in what era you live, but Screech Dugtrio has not been played since 2016. So, no Dugtrio doesn't Trap + kill Venusaur, no it doesn't Trap Clefable, just remove them from the list entirely.

 

  • Zoroark, like I mentionned earlier can be played Choice Scarf and would just win agaisnt Sash Dugtrio since Eq + Sucker Punch from Dugtrio doesn't kill it. There is also the Sucker Punch and U-turn variants that you mentionned. In all cases, asterix next to Zoroark please.
  • Houndoom, I agree.
  • Drapion, I agree. To be honest, it's a good thing that a cancer mon like Drapion gets trapped by another cancer mon, it's the closest thing we get to karma in PokeMMO.
  • Typhlosion, I agree.
  • Golem, this deserves an asterix. Sturdy/Custap Berry can be an issue since EQ may put Golem in Custap range. Golem also has access to Sucker Punch as mentionned earlier.
  • Nidoqueen, I agree.
  • Espeon, I agree. The main difference is that Dugtrio can really used Sucker Punch properly when it isn't locked, so Espeon (even if Scarf) doesn't stand a chance. 
  • Manectric, I agree.
  • Pikachu, well at least here, Pikachu is doomed vs Dugtrio since Extreme Speed can't break the Focus Sash. Dugtrio can't trap Pikachu directly tho because of Fake Out tho which mean the only possible way for Dugtrio to Trap and kill Pikachu is to switch into an electric move or revenge killign Pikachu. That deserves an asterix imo.
  • Omastar, should not have been listed.
  • Magmortar, should not have been listed.

 

On 7/3/2021 at 10:09 AM, pachima said:

In sum, Dugtrio is able to beat almost half of the common tier, while effortlessly trapping more than one third of it. This creates a negative mentality and unhealthy pressure to any of the stated Pokemon, just like Zymogen kindly explained perfectly, while also preventing effective teambuilding, since Dugtrio alone helps any team to get rid of any Weakness they inherently possess.

Even if your lists were accurate (which they are absolutely not imo), Dugtrio doesn't trap anything on these lists efortlessly. According to you, there are 42 mons above 4% usage. You listed 14 mons on your first inaccurate list. You listed 7 mons on your second inaccurate list. You then listed 13 mons on your third inaccurate list. That's an average of 11.3 mons per list which is below one third of 42 mons in NU, meaning 14 mons. 

There are 39 mons above the 4.36% reference point that has been used forever. In my updated versions of your lists, the average mons getting trapped would be 6 mons which is also below one third of the 39 mons in NU, meaning below 13 mons. 

 

So, there is no universe where your summary statement above is remotely true.

 

 

Tbh, even thought Focus Sash Dugtrio can accomplish more compared to locked sets imo, I still don't think Dugtrio is more cancerous in NU than it is in other tiers. That's just how Dugtrio is. It traps Ttar, Magnezone, Volcarona, Tentacruel, Jolteon, Excadrill, Infernape, Darmanitan, Breloom, Heracross, Empoleon, Lanturn, Gigalith, Arcanine, Electrode, Bisharp, etc. You mentionned earlier that you think Dugtrio is unhealthy in all tiers and that may be true, but that certainly doesn't mean NU should get some special treatment. Dugtrio should be banned in all tiers or in none imo.

 

 

 



 

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Why aren't we getting a suspect test for Dug in NU? My biggest issue with Dug in NU compared to other tiers is that it is a very viable Pokemon. Youre, not sacrificing much by having it in your team, hell it makes most teams better by being in it. This to me is alarming when what makes this mon so good is its ability to take away control from the opponent. And again in OU and UU dug is often just not that good, it's not a Pokemon you see influencing many games, that to me is the big difference (although I still think AT needs to be banned in all tiers).

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I'm so tired of discussing Dugtrio/AT over, and over, and over again. I've done it so many times I already lost count. Through many years, not much has changed with this mon, it's cancer wherever it appears. 

Just ban it. I really don't want to repeat what I already said multiple times in the past about this pokemon.

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Last time it was brought up, at the beginning of this month it seemed like a pretty split subject, some on one side of the field some on the other and a couple in the middle unsure about it, that doesn't really tell you anything but its what I took out of the conversation they had about it. No official voting though so the actual votes could be entirely different.

 

I wish some of them would actually respond here but I can't force people to talk.

Something I did recently was look at its tournament usage, which came out more or less the same as its regular usage, win rate and all.

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams    
  5136 856    
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage    
Venusaur (3) 327 38.20%    
Blaziken (257) 318 37.15%    
Rotom (479) 229 26.75%    
Golbat (42) 225 26.29%    
Slowbro (80) 206 24.07%    
Steelix (208) 189 22.08%    
Feraligatr (160) 155 18.11%    
Clefable (36) 140 16.36%    
Mantine (226) 136 15.89%    
Nidoqueen (31) 126 14.72%    
Houndoom (229) 125 14.60%    
Golem (76) 122 14.25%    
Zoroark (571) 108 12.62%    
Dugtrio (51) 107 12.50% 54 50.46728972
Eelektross (604) 107 12.50%    
Escavalier (589) 103 12.03%    
Drapion (452) 100 11.68%    
Typhlosion (157) 90 10.51%    
Froslass (478) 88 10.28%    
Absol (359) 86 10.05%    
Vanilluxe (584) 85 9.93%    
Gallade (475) 82 9.58%    
Piloswine (221) 81 9.46%    
Honchkrow (430) 65 7.59%    
Slowking (199) 59 6.89%    
Espeon (196) 55 6.43%    
Hitmonchan (107) 53 6.19%    
Sceptile (254) 53 6.19%    
Pikachu (25) 52 6.07%    
Bronzor (436) 51 5.96%    
Hitmontop (237) 50 5.84%    
Omastar (139) 49 5.72%    
Quagsire (195) 49 5.72%    
Manectric (310) 43 5.02%    
Altaria (334) 40 4.67%    
Ambipom (424) 39 4.56%    
Alomomola (594) 36 4.21%    
Swellow (277) 34 3.97%    
Magneton (82) 29 3.39%    
Charizard (6) 28 3.27%    
Butterfree (12) 27 3.15%    
Kangaskhan (115) 27 3.15%    
Magmortar (467) 27 3.15%    
Seismitoad (537) 27 3.15%    
Braviary (628) 26 3.04%    
Primeape (57) 25 2.92%    
Sharpedo (319) 25 2.92%    
Gardevoir (282) 23 2.69%    
Ludicolo (272) 23 2.69%    
Miltank (241) 22 2.57%    
Serperior (497) 22 2.57%    
Poliwrath (62) 21 2.45%    
Golurk (623) 20 2.34%    
Nidoking (34) 20 2.34%    
Rotom [Fan Rotom] (660) 20 2.34%    
Stunfisk (618) 20 2.34%    
Rhydon (112) 19 2.22%    
Gurdurr (533) 18 2.10%    
Lilligant (549) 16 1.87%    
Sableye (302) 16 1.87%    
Samurott (503) 16 1.87%    
Sandslash (28) 16 1.87%    
Whimsicott (547) 16 1.87%    
Camerupt (323) 15 1.75%    
Frillish (592) 15 1.75%    
Accelgor (617) 14 1.64%    
Linoone (264) 14 1.64%    
Machamp (68) 14 1.64%    
Ninjask (291) 14 1.64%    
Toxicroak (454) 14 1.64%    
Musharna (518) 13 1.52%    
Skuntank (435) 13 1.52%    
Dusknoir (477) 12 1.40%    
Qwilfish (211) 12 1.40%    
Abomasnow (460) 11 1.29%    
Archeops (567) 11 1.29%    
Claydol (344) 11 1.29%    
Klinklang (601) 11 1.29%    
Munchlax (446) 11 1.29%    
Bibarel (400) 10 1.17%    
Duosion (578) 10 1.17%    
Scyther (123) 10 1.17%    
Vibrava (329) 10 1.17%    
Hariyama (297) 9 1.05%    
Lumineon (457) 9 1.05%    
Smeargle (235) 9 1.05%    
Ferroseed (597) 8 0.93%    
Lopunny (428) 7 0.82%    
Ninetales (38) 7 0.82%    
Stoutland (508) 7 0.82%    
Cinccino (573) 6 0.70%    
Crustle (558) 6 0.70%    
Dragonair (148) 6 0.70%    
Electivire (466) 6 0.70%    
Probopass (476) 6 0.70%    
Torterra (389) 6 0.70%    
Vullaby (629) 6 0.70%    
Cryogonal (615) 5 0.58%    
Gigalith (526) 5 0.58%    
Hippopotas (449) 5 0.58%    
Lapras (131) 5 0.58%    
Raticate (20) 5 0.58%    
Sawsbuck (586) 5 0.58%    
Swalot (317) 5 0.58%    
Vigoroth (288) 5 0.58%    
Emolga (587) 4 0.47%    
Galvantula (596) 4 0.47%    
Gorebyss (368) 4 0.47%    
Jumpluff (189) 4 0.47%    
Wartortle (8) 4 0.47%    
Wobbuffet (202) 4 0.47%    
Ampharos (181) 3 0.35%    
Armaldo (348) 3 0.35%    
Emboar (500) 3 0.35%    
Hitmonlee (106) 3 0.35%    
Lampent (608) 3 0.35%    
Leafeon (470) 3 0.35%    
Marowak (105) 3 0.35%    
Mienfoo (619) 3 0.35%    
Noctowl (164) 3 0.35%    
Rapidash (78) 3 0.35%    
Simipour (516) 3 0.35%    
Slaking (289) 3 0.35%    
Throh (538) 3 0.35%    
Vileplume (45) 3 0.35%    
Weezing (110) 3 0.35%    
Zangoose (335) 3 0.35%    
Amoonguss (591) 2 0.23%    
Audino (531) 2 0.23%    
Cacturne (332) 2 0.23%    
Carracosta (565) 2 0.23%    
Crawdaunt (342) 2 0.23%    
Grumpig (326) 2 0.23%    
Haunter (93) 2 0.23%    
Hypno (97) 2 0.23%    
Lickilicky (463) 2 0.23%    
Luxray (405) 2 0.23%    
Pinsir (127) 2 0.23%    
Sawk (539) 2 0.23%    
Scolipede (545) 2 0.23%    
Shedinja (292) 2 0.23%    
Shelmet (616) 2 0.23%    
Sneasel (215) 2 0.23%    
Ursaring (217) 2 0.23%    
Aerodactyl (142) 1 0.12%    
Aron (304) 1 0.12%    
Azumarill (184) 1 0.12%    
Bouffalant (626) 1 0.12%    
Cradily (346) 1 0.12%    
Dodrio (85) 1 0.12%    
Drifblim (426) 1 0.12%    
Flareon (136) 1 0.12%    
Floatzel (419) 1 0.12%    
Garbodor (569) 1 0.12%    
Glaceon (471) 1 0.12%    
Golduck (55) 1 0.12%    
Horsea (116) 1 0.12%    
Jynx (124) 1 0.12%    
Kingler (99) 1 0.12%    
Lunatone (337) 1 0.12%    
Meganium (154) 1 0.12%    
Mismagius (429) 1 0.12%    
Monferno (391) 1 0.12%    
Mr. Mime (122) 1 0.12%    
Persian (53) 1 0.12%    
Relicanth (369) 1 0.12%    
Seel (86) 1 0.12%    
Shiftry (275) 1 0.12%    
Simisear (514) 1 0.12%    
Solrock (338) 1 0.12%    
Spiritomb (442) 1 0.12%    
Swanna (581) 1 0.12%    
Swoobat (528) 1 0.12%    
Tangrowth (465) 1 0.12%    
Tauros (128) 1 0.12%    
Victreebel (71) 1 0.12%    
Walrein (365) 1 0.12%    
Wigglytuff (40) 1 0.12%    
Zweilous (634) 1 0.12%    

 

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2 hours ago, Munya said:

Last time it was brought up, at the beginning of this month it seemed like a pretty split subject, some on one side of the field some on the other and a couple in the middle unsure about it, that doesn't really tell you anything but its what I took out of the conversation they had about it. No official voting though so the actual votes could be entirely different.

 

I wish some of them would actually respond here but I can't force people to talk.

Something I did recently was look at its tournament usage, which came out more or less the same as its regular usage, win rate and all.

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All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams    
  5136 856    
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage    
Venusaur (3) 327 38.20%    
Blaziken (257) 318 37.15%    
Rotom (479) 229 26.75%    
Golbat (42) 225 26.29%    
Slowbro (80) 206 24.07%    
Steelix (208) 189 22.08%    
Feraligatr (160) 155 18.11%    
Clefable (36) 140 16.36%    
Mantine (226) 136 15.89%    
Nidoqueen (31) 126 14.72%    
Houndoom (229) 125 14.60%    
Golem (76) 122 14.25%    
Zoroark (571) 108 12.62%    
Dugtrio (51) 107 12.50% 54 50.46728972
Eelektross (604) 107 12.50%    
Escavalier (589) 103 12.03%    
Drapion (452) 100 11.68%    
Typhlosion (157) 90 10.51%    
Froslass (478) 88 10.28%    
Absol (359) 86 10.05%    
Vanilluxe (584) 85 9.93%    
Gallade (475) 82 9.58%    
Piloswine (221) 81 9.46%    
Honchkrow (430) 65 7.59%    
Slowking (199) 59 6.89%    
Espeon (196) 55 6.43%    
Hitmonchan (107) 53 6.19%    
Sceptile (254) 53 6.19%    
Pikachu (25) 52 6.07%    
Bronzor (436) 51 5.96%    
Hitmontop (237) 50 5.84%    
Omastar (139) 49 5.72%    
Quagsire (195) 49 5.72%    
Manectric (310) 43 5.02%    
Altaria (334) 40 4.67%    
Ambipom (424) 39 4.56%    
Alomomola (594) 36 4.21%    
Swellow (277) 34 3.97%    
Magneton (82) 29 3.39%    
Charizard (6) 28 3.27%    
Butterfree (12) 27 3.15%    
Kangaskhan (115) 27 3.15%    
Magmortar (467) 27 3.15%    
Seismitoad (537) 27 3.15%    
Braviary (628) 26 3.04%    
Primeape (57) 25 2.92%    
Sharpedo (319) 25 2.92%    
Gardevoir (282) 23 2.69%    
Ludicolo (272) 23 2.69%    
Miltank (241) 22 2.57%    
Serperior (497) 22 2.57%    
Poliwrath (62) 21 2.45%    
Golurk (623) 20 2.34%    
Nidoking (34) 20 2.34%    
Rotom [Fan Rotom] (660) 20 2.34%    
Stunfisk (618) 20 2.34%    
Rhydon (112) 19 2.22%    
Gurdurr (533) 18 2.10%    
Lilligant (549) 16 1.87%    
Sableye (302) 16 1.87%    
Samurott (503) 16 1.87%    
Sandslash (28) 16 1.87%    
Whimsicott (547) 16 1.87%    
Camerupt (323) 15 1.75%    
Frillish (592) 15 1.75%    
Accelgor (617) 14 1.64%    
Linoone (264) 14 1.64%    
Machamp (68) 14 1.64%    
Ninjask (291) 14 1.64%    
Toxicroak (454) 14 1.64%    
Musharna (518) 13 1.52%    
Skuntank (435) 13 1.52%    
Dusknoir (477) 12 1.40%    
Qwilfish (211) 12 1.40%    
Abomasnow (460) 11 1.29%    
Archeops (567) 11 1.29%    
Claydol (344) 11 1.29%    
Klinklang (601) 11 1.29%    
Munchlax (446) 11 1.29%    
Bibarel (400) 10 1.17%    
Duosion (578) 10 1.17%    
Scyther (123) 10 1.17%    
Vibrava (329) 10 1.17%    
Hariyama (297) 9 1.05%    
Lumineon (457) 9 1.05%    
Smeargle (235) 9 1.05%    
Ferroseed (597) 8 0.93%    
Lopunny (428) 7 0.82%    
Ninetales (38) 7 0.82%    
Stoutland (508) 7 0.82%    
Cinccino (573) 6 0.70%    
Crustle (558) 6 0.70%    
Dragonair (148) 6 0.70%    
Electivire (466) 6 0.70%    
Probopass (476) 6 0.70%    
Torterra (389) 6 0.70%    
Vullaby (629) 6 0.70%    
Cryogonal (615) 5 0.58%    
Gigalith (526) 5 0.58%    
Hippopotas (449) 5 0.58%    
Lapras (131) 5 0.58%    
Raticate (20) 5 0.58%    
Sawsbuck (586) 5 0.58%    
Swalot (317) 5 0.58%    
Vigoroth (288) 5 0.58%    
Emolga (587) 4 0.47%    
Galvantula (596) 4 0.47%    
Gorebyss (368) 4 0.47%    
Jumpluff (189) 4 0.47%    
Wartortle (8) 4 0.47%    
Wobbuffet (202) 4 0.47%    
Ampharos (181) 3 0.35%    
Armaldo (348) 3 0.35%    
Emboar (500) 3 0.35%    
Hitmonlee (106) 3 0.35%    
Lampent (608) 3 0.35%    
Leafeon (470) 3 0.35%    
Marowak (105) 3 0.35%    
Mienfoo (619) 3 0.35%    
Noctowl (164) 3 0.35%    
Rapidash (78) 3 0.35%    
Simipour (516) 3 0.35%    
Slaking (289) 3 0.35%    
Throh (538) 3 0.35%    
Vileplume (45) 3 0.35%    
Weezing (110) 3 0.35%    
Zangoose (335) 3 0.35%    
Amoonguss (591) 2 0.23%    
Audino (531) 2 0.23%    
Cacturne (332) 2 0.23%    
Carracosta (565) 2 0.23%    
Crawdaunt (342) 2 0.23%    
Grumpig (326) 2 0.23%    
Haunter (93) 2 0.23%    
Hypno (97) 2 0.23%    
Lickilicky (463) 2 0.23%    
Luxray (405) 2 0.23%    
Pinsir (127) 2 0.23%    
Sawk (539) 2 0.23%    
Scolipede (545) 2 0.23%    
Shedinja (292) 2 0.23%    
Shelmet (616) 2 0.23%    
Sneasel (215) 2 0.23%    
Ursaring (217) 2 0.23%    
Aerodactyl (142) 1 0.12%    
Aron (304) 1 0.12%    
Azumarill (184) 1 0.12%    
Bouffalant (626) 1 0.12%    
Cradily (346) 1 0.12%    
Dodrio (85) 1 0.12%    
Drifblim (426) 1 0.12%    
Flareon (136) 1 0.12%    
Floatzel (419) 1 0.12%    
Garbodor (569) 1 0.12%    
Glaceon (471) 1 0.12%    
Golduck (55) 1 0.12%    
Horsea (116) 1 0.12%    
Jynx (124) 1 0.12%    
Kingler (99) 1 0.12%    
Lunatone (337) 1 0.12%    
Meganium (154) 1 0.12%    
Mismagius (429) 1 0.12%    
Monferno (391) 1 0.12%    
Mr. Mime (122) 1 0.12%    
Persian (53) 1 0.12%    
Relicanth (369) 1 0.12%    
Seel (86) 1 0.12%    
Shiftry (275) 1 0.12%    
Simisear (514) 1 0.12%    
Solrock (338) 1 0.12%    
Spiritomb (442) 1 0.12%    
Swanna (581) 1 0.12%    
Swoobat (528) 1 0.12%    
Tangrowth (465) 1 0.12%    
Tauros (128) 1 0.12%    
Victreebel (71) 1 0.12%    
Walrein (365) 1 0.12%    
Wigglytuff (40) 1 0.12%    
Zweilous (634) 1 0.12%    

 

Munyu, how many times do we have to repeat this... Usage/ winrate does not mean that something is broken, unhealthy, centralizing, offensive uber and so on.

Dugtrio's sole presence impacts NU teambuilding on a massive scale and that alone is reason enough to ban it. If one mon's presence prevents the tier's versatility, then it really should vanish as soon as possible. Maybe when I'll get bored I'll pour my old posts about how idiotic Dugtrio is into this thread.

 

Although first things first, I'd rather see King's Rock and Razor Fang nerfed, small steps, one at the time.

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