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Ban king's rock from PvP


JorgeFirebolt

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There's no need to explain why, it's frustrating to play a PvP, be about to win, you still got a counter vs Cloyster, and then, from nowhere, when cloyster just sets up Shell smash, tada, you get flinched!

 

It's literally one of the most unhealthy PvP items. For those who say that "King's rock is ok 'cause paraflinch exist eksdee", paraflinch can be stopped by lots of things like natural cure users, electric types, or heal bell cleric users, while king's rock cloyster is just a spammy unhealthy mon with no solid counter if boosted and flinch is done to it's counter.

 

It's not healthy to have a broken wallbreaker such as Cloyster with a 41% to flinch it's enemy and a 10% on each move. I bet I'm not the only one who was having a good match, close to win, then king's rock cloyster comes from nowhere and flinches the pokemon that can stop him. (Example: Magnezone, reuniclus, metagross, chansey/blissey at full health, cofagrigus, etc...)

 

Just ban it, it's the most unhealthy thing you can see on this PvP metagame. I'm open to any against argument and to answer them.

Edited by JorgeFirebolt
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3 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Well, players talk that if the pokemon is low usage, he don't be a good choice in PvP, and the same players talk: Usage doesn't matter for potential of Pokemon.

It's very rare to see high usage as an indicator of the strength of a particularly problematic Pokemon. Even some of the most oppressive threats in the game's history have had pretty low usage, the thing about usage is it mostly indicates the splashability of a Pokemon IE in how many teams this Pokemon can function properly. And this segways perfectly into Lucario, Vacuum Wave Lucario is by no means a weak Pokemon, with proper support it's a fairly strong pick, but it's sadly not a very splashable Pokemon, that means you can't just stick it in any team and perform its role consistently every time. A balance team will seldom create a scenario where Lucario can set up and sweep, a mostly stall team with a 6th slot spent on Lucario even less, Lucario feels at home in offensive teams that blow holes and create the offensive pressure needed for everything to be low enough for Lucario to sweep, alternatively it can be used to blow those holes itself so it allows some other Pokemon the opportunity to sweep.

 

Cloyster isn't the issue, defensive pokemon aren't the issue. The problem is King's Rock + Cloyster, specifically the King's Rock component of it, which vastly reduces the reliable counterplay options to it for a very small trade off. It's not an invincible strategy, there is some reliable counterplay, absolutely, in Vacuum Wave Lucario, but that's the only reliable one who doesn't have to fear any flinch roll.

Maybe you can use Inner Focus Bisharp but that Pokemon has to hope to win a 50-50 or two in the worst case with Cloyster right after. EVERYTHING else has a shot at getting flinched to death, no matter how small.

 

Togekiss didn't have the luxury of this, it had a much lower speed tier, was limited to one move which could miss and had no priority, it also heavily depended on its EVs and other moves to beat certain things, otherwise it'd easily lose, Cloyster with King's Rock however is packed tightly into something that can flinch most opposing Pokemon to death if lucky enough after setting up once.

 

There's no secret NU mon that reliably hard counters it, here, check it for yourself, the only Inner Focus Pokemon who both live a 125+ BP multi hit nuke are Lucario and Bisharp, everything else dies. You can't even do something as silly as saying "I'll bring focus sash Throh and keep it at full no matter what until it faces Cloyster" because Cloy uses multi hit moves. No matter what you bring there's always going to be an element of luck involved and given enough luck it can get out of any situation that isn't a Vacuum Wave Lucario, a Pokemon that like previously said only fits in offensive archetypes and isn't exactly the most common thing to stick in them.

 

You saying MAAAAAAN DON'T BE A MACHINE BRO JUST USE LOW USAGE POKEMON BEAT THE SYSTEM BRO USE THE LITTLE GUY isn't a solution, it's you putting yourself on a pedestal for using lower usage Pokemon and being "unique". Being unique sadly doesn't make you special, or useful, or a good player, there's plenty of room for originally with lower usage Pokemon when they work, I've seen great players pull it off and they have my respect.  But in this case you're suggesting there's a "non copypaste" solution to this when in truth there isn't. An Empoleon can get flinched to death, an Infernape could theoretically get flinched to death with enough luck, a Kingdra under rain too, same with a scarf Starmie, all by Ice Shard. It's unlikely, sure, but not impossible, and the problem is the item adding a layer of luck making it frustrating to play against and the tradeoff is just its item slot, which maybe Cloyster would honestly prefer to have occupied by something else, sure, but the problem is this thing shouldn't even exist as a possibility and players shouldn't be forced to either use one Pokemon to avoid a coin toss from a Pokemon that can become so oppressive with just the right turn and set up.

 

This guy is literally educating us on a problem he created in his head and giving us a solution to it. He's condescendingly telling everyone the basics of teambuilding and calling out better players than him while providing nothing substantial of his own. I am honestly surprised the mods let him derail the tread consistently from start to finish with his nonsense.

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9 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

For this reason, cloyster is better focus sash.

This guy like to talk a lot about things that he doesn't understand lol.

Ok, let me clarify you and anyone who read your inventions for a last time.

Cloyster has, indeed 48% winrate.

 image.png.63907b9fc3fa33c56bf48af464ad1d17.png

But that's not the reason, Cloyster should have less winrate than 48%, it has 48% because King's Rock is not banned.

image.png.b8739cfa051495c3365add163ee166cc.png

The 27.92% people who use King's Rock should have an stable positive winrates.

Similar to Milotic.

 image.png.c80aed8334c1fb35875af17db65084c8.png

Milotic win less times when is used with Flame Orb and with Leftovers win games normally

image.png.0fb56b7a968b572a9fc27804e9e78290.png

In this case Cloyster is pure theory, but is obvious that King's Rock has high winrate and the other items not, and more winrate than Milotic Leftovers.

I said I was not replying to you again but its so entertaining lmao

Edited by ZeknShooter
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3 hours ago, ZeknShooter said:

This guy like to talk a lot about things that he doesn't understand lol.

Ok, let me clarify you and anyone who read your inventions for a last time.

Cloyster has, indeed 48% winrate.

 image.png.63907b9fc3fa33c56bf48af464ad1d17.png

But that's not the reason, Cloyster should have less winrate than 48%, it has 48% because King's Rock is not banned.

image.png.b8739cfa051495c3365add163ee166cc.png

The 27.92% people who use King's Rock should have an stable positive winrates.

Similar to Milotic.

 image.png.c80aed8334c1fb35875af17db65084c8.png

Milotic win less times when is used with Flame Orb and with Leftovers win games normally

image.png.0fb56b7a968b572a9fc27804e9e78290.png

In this case Cloyster is pure theory, but is obvious that King's Rock has high winrate and the other items not, and more winrate than Milotic Leftovers.

I said I was not replying to you again but its so entertaining lmao

That's purely based on assumption, we unfortunately do not have enough information to say that is actually true, its not even something I am capable of pulling myself before anybody asks me to, would if I could though.

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5 hours ago, ZeknShooter said:

This guy like to talk a lot about things that he doesn't understand lol.

Ok, let me clarify you and anyone who read your inventions for a last time.

Cloyster has, indeed 48% winrate.

 image.png.63907b9fc3fa33c56bf48af464ad1d17.png

But that's not the reason, Cloyster should have less winrate than 48%, it has 48% because King's Rock is not banned.

image.png.b8739cfa051495c3365add163ee166cc.png

The 27.92% people who use King's Rock should have an stable positive winrates.

Similar to Milotic.

 image.png.c80aed8334c1fb35875af17db65084c8.png

Milotic win less times when is used with Flame Orb and with Leftovers win games normally

image.png.0fb56b7a968b572a9fc27804e9e78290.png

In this case Cloyster is pure theory, but is obvious that King's Rock has high winrate and the other items not, and more winrate than Milotic Leftovers.

I said I was not replying to you again but its so entertaining lmao

"image.png.63907b9fc3fa33c56bf48af464ad1d17.png

But that's not the reason, Cloyster should have less winrate than 48%, it has 48% because King's Rock is not banned.

image.png.b8739cfa051495c3365add163ee166cc.png

The 27.92% people who use King's Rock should have an stable positive winrates." - You can't confirm it, because the counters and checks, nothing guarant every time flinch. And like i sayed, the most part of special fight-type can counter it. Vaccum Wave is good to end a cloyster, because your VERY LOW Special Defense. Infernape only count with 10% flinch. Lucario, you can avoid full flinch, or leave it with steadfast to buff itself if flinch, and have speed to use a good move against the next pokemon
"Milotic win less times when is used with Flame Orb and with Leftovers win games normally

image.png.0fb56b7a968b572a9fc27804e9e78290.png

In this case Cloyster is pure theory, but is obvious that King's Rock has high winrate and the other items not, and more winrate than Milotic Leftovers." -  No guaranted, once time that have counters and checks, and Milotic normally depend of flame orb to buff defense, once time the special defense of him is more trained.

 

image.png.b222140877149c9eb84cf098b22e20ea.png
Let's check togekiss. If your theory is correct, every people that use King's rock and Choice Specs in togekiss win more matchs? Your win rate is higher than people that use Choice Scarf and Leftovers, the most used.

Doesn't make any sense. This percent of used itens, is only calculed about win rate. 
If you talk: Choice Scarf win more matchs than leftovers ; You're saying that less players use Choice Scarf and lose.

Edited by caioxlive13
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5 hours ago, ZeknShooter said:

This guy like to talk a lot about things that he doesn't understand lol.

Ok, let me clarify you and anyone who read your inventions for a last time.

Cloyster has, indeed 48% winrate.

 image.png.63907b9fc3fa33c56bf48af464ad1d17.png

But that's not the reason, Cloyster should have less winrate than 48%, it has 48% because King's Rock is not banned.

image.png.b8739cfa051495c3365add163ee166cc.png

The 27.92% people who use King's Rock should have an stable positive winrates.

Similar to Milotic.

 image.png.c80aed8334c1fb35875af17db65084c8.png

Milotic win less times when is used with Flame Orb and with Leftovers win games normally

image.png.0fb56b7a968b572a9fc27804e9e78290.png

In this case Cloyster is pure theory, but is obvious that King's Rock has high winrate and the other items not, and more winrate than Milotic Leftovers.

I said I was not replying to you again but its so entertaining lmao

The item/nature usage shown is only from won games. It means that Cloyster wins 48% of its games and,out of those won games, Cloyster was played 28% of the time with King's Rock. We don't have access to the item/nature usage of lost games, so there is no way to know if King's Rock makes Cloyster better or worse.

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3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The item/nature usage shown is only from won games. It means that Cloyster wins 48% of its games and,out of those won games, Cloyster was played 28% of the time with King's Rock. We don't have access to the item/nature usage of lost games, so there is no way to know if King's Rock makes Cloyster better or worse.

You are correct

If you talk king's rock represent a big part of wins, you're talking that less players lose with it

 

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8 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

If you talk king's rock represent a big part of wins, you're talking that less players lose with it

I never said or implied that.

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7 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

I know. this: "If you talk king's rock represent a big part of wins, you're talking that less players lose with it" 
I don't repling you

22 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:
27 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The item/nature usage shown is only from won games. It means that Cloyster wins 48% of its games and,out of those won games, Cloyster was played 28% of the time with King's Rock. We don't have access to the item/nature usage of lost games, so there is no way to know if King's Rock makes Cloyster better or worse.

You are correct

If you talk king's rock represent a big part of wins, you're talking that less players lose with it

If you're not replying to me, who is "you" refering to in your reply to my post.

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54 minutes ago, gbwead said:

If you're not replying to me, who is "you" refering to in your reply to my post.

Just ignore him gb. If someone makes almost 100 posts in a 10-page thread then you can see that he's senslessly rambling from the distance. Not all people are capable of actually discussing something by providing reasonable, convincing arguments.

11 hours ago, suigin said:

This guy is literally educating us on a problem he created in his head and giving us a solution to it. He's condescendingly telling everyone the basics of teambuilding and calling out better players than him while providing nothing substantial of his own. I am honestly surprised the mods let him derail the thread consistently from start to finish with his nonsense.

Well he is not exactly derailing the thread. He is attempting to defend king's rock but his arguments bear no weight as they have absolutely no sense, and everyone else who disagrees with him is called a "wall player". I guess people like him were the reason why tier council existed- so people with knowledge, skills and experience, can discuss what can be done to eliminate potential overpowered threats. Kinda shame that TC has no power here to make a clear stand and simply get rid of this item...

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11 hours ago, Munya said:

That's purely based on assumption, we unfortunately do not have enough information to say that is actually true, its not even something I am capable of pulling myself before anybody asks me to, would if I could though.

unfortunately, I needed to make the assumption to clarify something that he said previously: 

 

On 7/12/2021 at 9:46 PM, caioxlive13 said:

48,36% of players that used cloyster win with him. 

To me is completely unfair to talk encompassing everything. I'm so sorry.

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On 7/16/2021 at 12:46 PM, RysPicz said:

  

Just ignore him gb. If someone makes almost 100 posts in a 10-page thread then you can see that he's senslessly rambling from the distance. Not all people are capable of actually discussing something by providing reasonable, convincing arguments.

Well he is not exactly derailing the thread. He is attempting to defend king's rock but his arguments bear no weight as they have absolutely no sense, and everyone else who disagrees with him is called a "wall player". I guess people like him were the reason why tier council existed- so people with knowledge, skills and experience, can discuss what can be done to eliminate potential overpowered threats. Kinda shame that TC has no power here to make a clear stand and simply get rid of this item...

Let's be fair you judge the guy for having bad arguments but both arguments here in this thread are horrible.
On the side of people who want to ban King's Rock there is no argument, they just want to ban it because it's boring to lose to this item. If your team loses to 1 or 2 cloyster flinches, sorry, but your team is bad. When someone loses to Togekiss and his flinches, no one says anything, understand?
And on the part of whoever King's Rock stays there are also bad arguments like wanting to ban stall (?)

 

As I said and will continue to say King's Rock in my opinion does not deserve to be banned because it is too bad, not using a useful item to have only 10% flinch is not at all strategic which reinforces my argument that CLOYSTER with this item that is the problem and not the item itself.

 

13 hours ago, PedroLindoUnico said:

If your team loses to 1 or 2 cloyster flinches, sorry, but your team is bad. When someone loses to Togekiss and his flinches, no one says anything, understand?

One of the arguments that many people use when I talk about togekiss is that Cloyster can  shell smash and get faster than most of the meta, which is true. But we have several examples where some pokemon that buff each other have their stab with a good chance to flinch like Feraligatr who has his main STAB like water with a high chance of flinch or even Durant who can buff and flinch with an iron head . And in both cases nobody is saying nothing which is controversial

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18 minutes ago, PedroLindoUnico said:

Let's be fair you judge the guy for having bad arguments but both arguments here in this thread are horrible.
On the side of people who want to ban King's Rock there is no argument, they just want to ban it because it's boring to lose to this item.

It appears like you have not read the thread at all or only read the posts that support your claim. I really do not want to repeat what others said about how King's Rock promotes RNG rather than skill and so forth. I've been tracking this thread ever since it was created and at this point I will just start repeating what was already said.

 

19 minutes ago, PedroLindoUnico said:

If your team loses to 1 or 2 cloyster flinches, sorry, but your team is bad

Sorry, but are you actually serious right now? My team is bad, because a pokemon that in normal game circumstances is a clear counter for Cloyster, gets RNG'd because of a held item? It's like saying that my team is bad because I lost my Volcarona due to a crit.

20 minutes ago, PedroLindoUnico said:

When someone loses to Togekiss and his flinches, no one says anything, understand?

Togekiss actually has counters which are on the high usage table. I believe Suigin has explained this comparisment somewhere inbetween of caioxlive13's rambling.

22 minutes ago, PedroLindoUnico said:

As I said and will continue to say King's Rock in my opinion does not deserve to be banned because it is too bad, not using a useful item to have only 10% flinch is not at all strategic which reinforces my argument that CLOYSTER with this item that is the problem and not the item itself.

Unfortunately, it's King's Rock that is the problem. Not Cloyster. Take King's Rock away- you have a perfectly good mon that has it's checks and counters.

Leave King's rock and you will start facing what I did in OU- beat up + icicle spear weavile attempting to flinch it's way through physical walls such as Skarmory. Very skillful.

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13 hours ago, RysPicz said:

It appears like you have not read the thread at all or only read the posts that support your claim. I really do not want to repeat what others said about how King's Rock promotes RNG rather than skill and so forth. I've been tracking this thread ever since it was created and at this point I will just start repeating what was already said.

 

I read the thread and its what I saw. It promotes RNG just as everything in this game as I said ban it separately makes no sense cuz we have several things that promotes rng way more than that, like Togekiss Thunder Wave+Air Slash or even the examples I said (Feraligatr and Durant) that can flinch with its main stab and use a item that it's not King's Rock.

 

Saying we should make the game more competitive is always a fail, pokemon is pokemon and it will be always like that, or we remove all RNG from the game or we don't remove part by part.

13 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Sorry, but are you actually serious right now? My team is bad, because a pokemon that in normal game circumstances is a clear counter for Cloyster, gets RNG'd because of a held item? It's like saying that my team is bad because I lost my Volcarona due to a crit.

Yes, I am serious if a team loses to 3 flinches of Togekiss everyone call it bad, isn't it? Why we can't apply that to a pokemon that has a chance to flinch way less than serene grace?

We have statistics that show what item is being used in the pokemon, King's Rock has a high usage and you should look into that to make ur team don't lose to that. You can say that Cloyster can flinch 77 times in a row and will kill all your walls but it is extremely unlikely.

13 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Unfortunately, it's King's Rock that is the problem. Not Cloyster. Take King's Rock away- you have a perfectly good mon that has it's checks and counters.

Leave King's rock and you will start facing what I did in OU- beat up + icicle spear weavile attempting to flinch it's way through physical walls such as Skarmory. Very skillful.

As I said before if you have a team ready for things like that you won't lose unless the person flicnhes you 77 times which, as I said, is extremely unlikely.

Asking for a ban saying X thing is skilless makes no sense, there are a lot of things in this game that are not skillful such as Hyper Offense or Stall.

 

13 hours ago, RysPicz said:

It appears like you have not read the thread at all or only read the posts that support your claim.

"There's no need to explain why, it's frustrating to play a PvP, be about to win, you still got a counter vs Cloyster, and then, from nowhere, when cloyster just sets up Shell smash, tada, you get flinched!"

bruh

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34 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

It appears like you have not read the thread at all or only read the posts that support your claim. I really do not want to repeat what others said about how King's Rock promotes RNG rather than skill and so forth. I've been tracking this thread ever since it was created and at this point I will just start repeating what was already said.

 

Sorry, but are you actually serious right now? My team is bad, because a pokemon that in normal game circumstances is a clear counter for Cloyster, gets RNG'd because of a held item? It's like saying that my team is bad because I lost my Volcarona due to a crit.

Togekiss actually has counters which are on the high usage table. I believe Suigin has explained this comparisment somewhere inbetween of caioxlive13's rambling.

Unfortunately, it's King's Rock that is the problem. Not Cloyster. Take King's Rock away- you have a perfectly good mon that has it's checks and counters.

Leave King's rock and you will start facing what I did in OU- beat up + icicle spear weavile attempting to flinch it's way through physical walls such as Skarmory. Very skillful.

"Leave King's rock and you will start facing what I did in OU- beat up + icicle spear weavile attempting to flinch it's way through physical walls such as Skarmory. Very skillful." - More skill that toxic oponent and use softboiled/slack off/recover/roost until oponent faint due to poison.
"about how King's Rock promotes RNG rather than skill and so forth" - dirty talking about the poorly washed. Let I informate you: No priority attack have multi-hit. 10% of flinch Only. And, using King's rock , in pokemons that have one of defenses Low, is a suicide lead. One Priority attack that hit in weaker defense and OHKO is guaranted. Weavile is a example, let's check your stats in Bulbapedia.
image.png.84fdedad007414d8c3dcf138bb58633d.png
Well, Physical Defense is the weaker point of weavile. If hold a king's rock, no protect against a OHKO of a mach punch.

Now, check cloyster stats:
image.png.4469c9ac7ca9a98378ec789f49a29118.png
No comments. Vaccum Wawe Make the work.

 

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22 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

More skill that toxic oponent and use softboiled/slack off/recover/roost until oponent faint due to poison.

This has still been the core argument of yours, that Kings Rock is a necessary item due to how bulky OU is. It's an interesting argument to me considering you can cripple bulky offense/stall teams using things such as Taunt/Toxic/Trick/Hazards/Set up moves, while there's really no way of countering something luck-based such as Quick Claw or Kings Rock.

 

1 hour ago, PedroLindoUnico said:

we have several things that promotes rng way more than that, like Togekiss Thunder Wave+Air Slash

Rotom-Wash & Magnezone immediately stop this, and they're both extremely common in OU. What stops King's Rock or Quick Claw? These are unskillful items that cannot be predicted or played around, compared to the other luck-based mechanics in the game. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Paul said:

This has still been the core argument of yours, that Kings Rock is a necessary item due to how bulky OU is. It's an interesting argument to me considering you can cripple bulky offense/stall teams using things such as Taunt/Toxic/Trick/Hazards/Set up moves, while there's really no way of countering something luck-based such as Quick Claw or Kings Rock.

 

Rotom-Wash & Magnezone immediately stop this, and they're both extremely common in OU. What stops King's Rock or Quick Claw? These are unskillful items that cannot be predicted or played around, compared to the other luck-based mechanics in the game. 

 

 

Who stops king's rock? attack with a priority move in weaker defense of pokemon. No Priority move have multi hit. 10% flinch, because each hit is a 10% chance. And the pokemons that been used with king's rock talked before, can be easily countered, because one of defenses is low and you can use a prority move to attack him.

"These are unskillful items that cannot be predicted or played around, compared to the other luck-based mechanics in the game. " - Wow, players that likes for long matchs and win only tanking, want to talk who is healty and who isn't. What a joke!.
 

Read:

12 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

"about how King's Rock promotes RNG rather than skill and so forth" - dirty talking about the poorly washed. Let I informate you: No priority attack have multi-hit. 10% of flinch Only. And, using King's rock , in pokemons that have one of defenses Low, is a suicide lead. One Priority attack that hit in weaker defense and OHKO is guaranted. Weavile is a example, let's check your stats in Bulbapedia.
image.png.84fdedad007414d8c3dcf138bb58633d.png
Well, Physical Defense is the weaker point of weavile. If hold a king's rock, no protect against a OHKO of a mach punch.

Now, check cloyster stats:
image.png.4469c9ac7ca9a98378ec789f49a29118.png
No comments. Vaccum Wawe Make the work.

 

If you leave your comfort zone and use something called OFFENSE POKEMON, you can counter this "OverPowered" itens. Try used Mixed Fight-type in your team.

 

On 7/15/2021 at 8:52 PM, caioxlive13 said:

"Physical walls certainly don't have trained some Special Defense, or your base stat special defense is low." - One example is Skarmory, Tank every physical move, but... Your special defense is low, the only thing that prevent him from take OHKO is your ability Sturdy. Nothing than a Mold Breaker pokemon doesn't stop
"And for cloyster, to him flinch, if he haves a king's rock, need to use ice shard, that only hit 1 time,10% flinch, or Rock Blast/Icicle spear, 50% flinch. " - For this reason, cloyster is better focus sash. The special defense of him is low, after shell smash? A special lucario doesn't have any trouble to faint him. A special Infernape counts with 10% flinch if cloyster try to use ice shard, but if he use any other move, it is Over to cloyster.

I talked for a example, this is more cases from our Unique Pokemmo PvP. 
Aim for a Better PokeMMO for all!

I leave a Example before, if your team have trouble with Physical Walls and Cloyster, who a special infernape can do for your team.

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6 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

I leave a Example before, if your team have trouble with Physical Walls and Cloyster, who a special infernape can do for your team.

Friend, you are very ridiculous, according to you we must play vacuum wave users just to avoid recoil, which can still be achieved with ice shard, that is 10% does not mean that it cannot be, you directly suggest that we all play lucario fear that a mon with rng item can sweep the whole team, that is centralizing, that should be avoided, we should not be forced to play things with vacuum wave like poliwrath or croagunk until scizor just for a mon with rng effect, because they just don't have the same viability as other mons in the level, okay, I wear poliwrath vacuum wave just for cloyster, what if they just don't bring it to me? I have an unnecessary slot that I could have used better in another mon, infernape is a separate case, nasty is not such a bad idea, but, should we all be forced to play that just because of an unusual rng factor? Listen, you are wrong, you created a problem in your head and you think your answers are correct, just think better, in a good way, you became a meme in this thread

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5 hours ago, Huargensy said:

Friend, you are very ridiculous, according to you we must play vacuum wave users just to avoid recoil, which can still be achieved with ice shard, that is 10% does not mean that it cannot be, you directly suggest that we all play lucario fear that a mon with rng item can sweep the whole team, that is centralizing, that should be avoided, we should not be forced to play things with vacuum wave like poliwrath or croagunk until scizor just for a mon with rng effect, because they just don't have the same viability as other mons in the level, okay, I wear poliwrath vacuum wave just for cloyster, what if they just don't bring it to me? I have an unnecessary slot that I could have used better in another mon, infernape is a separate case, nasty is not such a bad idea, but, should we all be forced to play that just because of an unusual rng factor? Listen, you are wrong, you created a problem in your head and you think your answers are correct, just think better, in a good way, you became a meme in this thread

I sayed a example that can Help you, and everyone that are reading this. If you or any other player don't want to apply in our team, the choice is yours. but don't come here to talk to rookies in pvp, who is "OverPowered" and impossible to counter, because we return here to remove your lie, telling good ways to counter.

Like Cloyster and Weavile King's rock.
1° - You can't check with precision the win rate of players that use it, or the number of loss then strategy have.
2° - Is oblivious that walls suffer with RNG flinch, but offense with good priority moves lock the choice of opponent, in moves of 10% chance. If you flinch 3 times in a row, you can forfeit.
3° - Some players that argument that item is overpowered and unhealty for pvp, but use 3, 4 or 5(Huargensy) walls. Is not healty play against that, if you don't have the counter, resulting in long and exaustive matchs

4° - All players are complety free to choice which pokemons use. We only have to guide the best sets for pokemons that he want to use. If players want to use Castform, he can use. If he want to use a sand team, he can use. But if you want to make a team, think before if your strategy is healty to opponent, that don't make him forfeit for PvP. Fair Play with your opponent. Play with stall, you like, good , but you, people that reading this and use stall, stop to think if your opponent like face stall? if exaustive and long matchs due to you, people that reading this and use stall, kept tanking all match , is healty to your opponent?

 

 

4 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

I sayed a example that can Help you, and everyone that are reading this. If you or any other player don't want to apply in our team, the choice is yours. but don't come here to talk to rookies in pvp, who is "OverPowered" and impossible to counter, because we return here to remove your lie, telling good ways to counter.

Like Cloyster and Weavile King's rock.
1° - You can't check with precision the win rate of players that use it, or the number of loss then strategy have.
2° - Is oblivious that walls suffer with RNG flinch, but offense with good priority moves lock the choice of opponent, in moves of 10% chance. If you flinch 3 times in a row, you can forfeit.
3° - Some players that argument that item is overpowered and unhealty for pvp, but use 3, 4 or 5(Huargensy) walls. Is not healty play against that, if you don't have the counter, resulting in long and exaustive matchs

4° - All players are complety free to choice which pokemons use. We only have to guide the best sets for pokemons that he want to use. If players want to use Castform, he can use. If he want to use a sand team, he can use. But if you want to make a team, think before if your strategy is healty to opponent, that don't make him forfeit for PvP. Fair Play with your opponent. Play with stall, you like, good , but you, people that reading this and use stall, stop to think if your opponent like face stall? if exaustive and long matchs due to you, people that reading this and use stall, kept tanking all match , is healty to your opponent?

 

Translated Text/Texto traduzido:
Eu citei um exemplo que pode te ajudar, e todos que estão lendo isso. Se você ou qualquer outro jogador não quiser adaptar o time, a escolha é sua, mas não venha aqui pra falar pros novatos em pvp, o que é "OP" e impossivel de counterar, pois a gente vai voltar pra desmentir e falar bons jeitos de lidar com as estrategias "OP".

Como Cloyster e Weavile King's rock.
1° - Você não pode checar com precisão a taxa de vitorias dos players que usam a estrategia, ou o numero de derrotas que a estrategia tem.
2° - É obvio que wall sofre com RNG flinch, wall é pra ficar tankando, não atacar diretamente. Os pokes ofensivos com bons golpes prioritarios travam a escolha do oponente em moves que só tem 10% de causar flinch, se der flinch 3 vezes, pode desistir.

3 °- Alguns jogadores argumentam que o item é op e não é saudavel para o pvp, mas usam times de 3, 4 ou 5 (Huargensy) walls. Não é saudavel jogar contra isso, se você não tiver o counter, resultando em partidas longas e exaustivas.

 4 ° - Todos os jogadores são completamente livres pra escolher com que pokemon querem jogar. Só devemos mostrar os melhores sets dos pokes que o cara escolheu. Se o cara quer usar Castform, ele pode usar. Se o cara quiser usar time sand, ele pode usar. Mas antes de montar o seu time, pense se sua estrategia é saudavel pro oponente, que não faça ele desistir do PvP. Jogo justo, Fair Play, com seu oponente. Se você que está lendo, gosta de usar stall, beleza, mas já pensou se seu oponente gosta de enfrentar stall? se as partidas longas e massantes, que você ,que usa stall, provoca, são saudaveis para seu oponente?

 

Edited by caioxlive13
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1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

I sayed a example that can Help you, and everyone that are reading this. If you or any other player don't want to apply in our team, the choice is yours. but don't come here to talk to rookies in pvp, who is "OverPowered" and impossible to counter, because we return here to remove your lie, telling good ways to counter.

Like Cloyster and Weavile King's rock.
1° - You can't check with precision the win rate of players that use it, or the number of loss then strategy have.
2° - Is oblivious that walls suffer with RNG flinch, but offense with good priority moves lock the choice of opponent, in moves of 10% chance. If you flinch 3 times in a row, you can forfeit.
3° - Some players that argument that item is overpowered and unhealty for pvp, but use 3, 4 or 5(Huargensy) walls. Is not healty play against that, if you don't have the counter, resulting in long and exaustive matchs

4° - All players are complety free to choice which pokemons use. We only have to guide the best sets for pokemons that he want to use. If players want to use Castform, he can use. If he want to use a sand team, he can use. But if you want to make a team, think before if your strategy is healty to opponent, that don't make him forfeit for PvP. Fair Play with your opponent. Play with stall, you like, good , but you, people that reading this and use stall, stop to think if your opponent like face stall? if exaustive and long matchs due to you, people that reading this and use stall, kept tanking all match , is healty to your opponent?

 

1-. At no time did I mention that I would care about the percentage of victories, I already said it before, even if it is only 1 person who abuses it, that does not mean that it is a problem and that that only person is winning by the rng factor, in a launch of coins that makes the difference between losing and winning

2-. I say it again, this is a problem that affects everyone, days ago I passed a video where this item was thrown an offensive team, or is Magnezone also wall? reaching the other point, I have seen cloyster go back offensive magnezone and rotom in the same way that you mention "offensive teams" making it clearer the big problem that this item is

3-. I explained before that I play the 3 types of game variants in this, offensive, defensive, and balanced, there I put an image of my OU offensive team a couple of weeks ago, I also want to say that cloyster has not been a problem for me, or at least not that I remember, but this is not about me and my personal experience, it is about what makes this item and the user suitable for the overall goal, and the experience of other players who did not have the Same luck of not being flinched and they lost in a situation of tossing a coin to win,

it is a problem that encompasses many, on the other hand you showed a team wall of mine wanting to achieve I don't know what, something very low to tell the truth, but since I see myself Obliged because you only mentioned me and took a screenshot to want to take advantage of this discussion because here I place a team of yours with cloyster that doing something that you did, I can say that "You are against the ban because you use cloyster kings rock and it is your only way to knock down pa networks and you depend only on luck "

4-. Okay, you say "Everyone is free to wear" So why should we be forced to wear infernape or lucario vacuum wave to avoid recoil? Why don't we just run a well-formed team built without these mons who don't have space in the team we made, without fear that some rng factor will win us the game by a random shudder? Do you see how contradictory you see yourself? On the other hand, we should not think about the rival, this is a competitive game, not only do we take a jolteon and say "What a shame my rival, he can carry 5 water types, it is better not to carry him".

The pvp in this and in another game, will always be played to win, to demonstrate the ability of one or the other, that is why the randomness should be minimized as much as possible, and in any case, in that capture of my team 6 walls my rival asked me for the details of the equipment, he liked it and wanted to use it, I'm sorry my dear, but not everyone thinks the same as you.

IMG-20210717-WA0000.jpg

IMG-20210717-WA0001.jpg

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Edited by Huargensy
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5 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

 

IMG-20210717-WA0001.jpg

 

I don't the type of player to use King's rock. Is suicide, i prefer focus sash
And, i don't use more cloyster. Traded it for a Infernape.

Read All text, but check the part with bold:
"4° - All players are complety free to choice which pokemons use. We only have to guide the best sets for pokemons that he want to use. If players want to use Castform, he can use. If he want to use a sand team, he can use. But if you want to make a team, think before if your strategy is healty to opponent, that don't make him forfeit for PvP. Fair Play with your opponent. Play with stall, you like, good , but you, people that reading this and use stall, stop to think if your opponent like face stall? if exaustive and long matchs due to you, people that reading this and use stall, kept tanking all match , is healty to your opponent?"

Not all of players likes to play a 100+ matchs. I sayed before, if placed a balancing system, to equilibrate the opponent's matchmaking level that you face, i no need to talk here. But, don't have and Novice players that play for keeps and don't like to spend 1 hour in matchs, face a Top 10 player, with a stall team, and, clearly, he loses.

 

Edited by caioxlive13
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I do not care if you changed it or if you did not play it, there is the image I do not plan to see the replay and I do not plan to follow all your duels to see if you use that or not, in the same way I can say that I use 6 walls but in reality they are mon offensive, I just gave you back what you did, use a capture of a person's game to want to win an argument, that's very mediocre. 

@Munya delete My message previous pls idk delete xD 

 

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

No soy el tipo de jugador que usa King's Rock. Es un suicidio, prefiero focus sash
y no uso más cloyster. Lo cambié por un Infernape.

Lea todo el texto, pero marque la parte en negrita :
"4 ° - Todos los jugadores son completamente libres de elegir qué pokemons usar. Solo tenemos que guiar los mejores conjuntos de pokemons que él quiera usar. Si los jugadores quieren usar Castform, él puede usar. Si quiere usar un equipo de arena, puede usar.Pero si quieres formar un equipo, piensa antes si tu estrategia es saludable para el oponente, eso no lo hace perder el derecho a PvP. Juego limpio con tu oponente. Juega con stall, te gusta, bueno, pero tú, la gente que lee esto y usa stall, se detiene a pensar si a su oponente le gusta la cara de stall? si los partidos son exhaustivos y largos debido a ti, las personas que leen esto y usan stall, siguieron hundiendo todos los partidos, ¿es saludable para tu oponente? "

No a todos los jugadores les gusta jugar más de 100 partidos. Dije antes, si se coloca un sistema de equilibrio , para equilibrar el nivel de emparejamiento del oponente al que te enfrentas, no necesito hablar aquí. Pero, no tengo jugadores novatos que juegan para siempre y no les gusta pasar 1 hora en partidos, enfréntate a un jugador Top 10, con un equipo de pérdida y, claramente, pierde.

 

Others that if others that do not, it is a form of game whether they want to or not, and they do not depend only on the rng, not everyone uses that style of play, do not be a stubborn one who believes that he is right when he is not, play as you like , if you see a problem in your team and it is walleable rebuild, others will win, not everyone who uses team walls has a 100% victory and not everyone uses it, and I'll be frank with you, they will not eliminate that style of play so pray as much as you want I'm sorry buddy, there's no reason to do it

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6 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

Others that if others that do not, it is a form of game whether they want to or not, and they do not depend only on the rng, not everyone uses that style of play, do not be a stubborn one who believes that he is right when he is not, play as you like , if you see a problem in your team and it is walleable rebuild, others will win, not everyone who uses team walls has a 100% victory and not everyone uses it, and I'll be frank with you, they will not eliminate that style of play so pray as much as you want I'm sorry buddy, there's no reason to do it

I sayed before: You can like stall, but think if your opponent likes too.

 What this game needed is a reformulated Matchmaking with balanced of opponent. where your rank determines which opponent you face. This end the most part of discussions and ask for ban useless. Once time that if strategy is OverPowered, players reach with him easily to high ladders, and if isn't , the players that use him kept in low ladders.

Edited by caioxlive13
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@caioxlive13Man, seriously shut tf up if you're unable to listen to us.  I've kept quiet reading this thread since the start and you've had answers from ex-council, Well-known players & even people that tried to give you the benefit of the doubt with some leeway responses to only frown once you answer.

Your only solution is to these items are "priority go brr" as if we didn't already know how the items work, so in your mind you just telling us to bring 6 pokemon with priority with chances of only 1-3 actually HKOing something (scizor/weavile/Mamoswine) while that one slot to having priority could go to something useful for a move to answer more of the meta instead of stuff like Quick Attack. Then you have the audacity to post in multi-media of pokemmo's official discord of sharing your answers to belittle the ones trying to actually educate you, if that's not enough you giving suggestions to report the players that do bother replying to you.

There's nothing you can actually provide as a solution to these items, asides banning them/Nerfing the effect so i don't know why you keep trying to defend with useless statements/information that's completely irrelevant, Honestly don't care if i get a warning for this.  

Fight me in-game, 20 matches and i'll use kings rock/quick claw teams and you can see for yourself how these items prevented a clear win & if you still defend it, then you're nothing but trash & i hope World Cup meme you. #caiobiggestclown.
 

Edited by Kupokun
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40 minutes ago, Kupokun said:

If you think that king's rock is op, reach with only that in at least top 10 matchmaking rank.

This is only a strategy common used by 450- elo players, and the same strategy only win with RNG some walls. Like Obelisk members sayed to me once time: players that used hax itens for a long time actually are in 450- elo, without chance of grow up your elo and go up in ranks.

I in time that used cloyster, NEVER used king's rock. King's rock and Hax itens are like z-crystals. You trade a good item for a "overpowered move or a Hax item"?
You can check the "highest skill of 450- elo players for teambuild(Ironic Alert)", only checking the IV, EV and Nature of pokemons that they use in PvP.

This is only a strategy common used by 450- elo players, i forgot to mention, No fear for offense teams, and with a usage below the critery adopted by "Veteran Players" to say who is usable and who isn't in pvp. Is inside 1,22(Calc before, win rate of Cloyster king's rock)-6(Win rate of king's rock cloyster + all loses of cloyster)%, and the critery of your says: to be usable in PvP, need at least 8% usage

Edited by caioxlive13
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