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[UU Discussion] Lucario Suspect Test


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With the successful introduction of Porygon-Z to the Underused Tier, the PokeMMO TC has continued to re-evaluate the current UU BL list and we have near unanimously voted to suspect test Lucario for the upcoming season.

 

We recognize that Lucario is an impressive offensive powerhouse, being able to break walls and sweep with physical, special, or mixed sets. It has powerful STAB moves, priority, and can be a reliable Choice Scarf user as well. Although, we believe that the Underused Tier has a unique variety of walls that in theory could check Lucario’s multitude of sets. Namely Crobat, which already has an incredible usage rate in UU, would act as the primary check for most sets, fearing only a +2 Extremespeed after chip damage or a predicted Ice Punch/Psychic. Lucario while boasting a good defensive typing, does not handle STAB Brave Bird incredibly well. Other checks include Gligar, Blastoise, Swampert, Dusclops, Metagross, Donphan, and most notably Torkoal. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a true counter for Lucario and each of the aforementioned Pokemon can readily be overcome by Lucario’s incredibly diverse moveset. Most of those Pokemon also take neutral damage from one of Lucario’s powerful STABs or are hit hard by a coverage move.

 

Despite such outstanding offensive power, Lucario also has a reluctancy to switch in and it hates chip damage, often relying on a Focus Sash or near full HP for optimal set-up opportunities. And despite such good defensive typing, it carries weaknesses to some of the most common coverage move-types in Fighting, Ground, and Fire. Without set-up, it often fails to have the power to reliably break many walls and could be crippled by Trick users.  

 

Lucario may also shake the meta up in a positive way. We would likely see increased usage in currently NU Pokemon like Slowbro, Nidoqueen, and possibly others. We will also likely see an uptick in Mach Punch users like Hitmontop that could stop any set-up. Durant may also see additional usage resisting all priority moves, except Vacuum Wave. What this means for UU and NU is yet to be seen, but I personally feel that a changing metagame is very healthy for PokeMMO.  

 

We recognize that on paper, Lucario looks overpowered, but we were all surprised by how the meta adapted to Porygon-Z and we felt it was necessary to test Lucario there as well.

 

Please discuss.

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As you said, Lucario is a powerful pokemon that uses machination and sword dance and that can be very surprising if you don't know what set to use, Still I think it is stand-up and can adapt to the meta as in the case of Porygon Z, pokemon like Donphan, torkoal, gligar, nidoqueen, golbat, weezing, dusclops, slowbro, and spiritomb The special attacker is also used for nidoqueen, crobat, blastoise, Roserade, cautious swampert, as checks Dugtrio, yanmega, mismagius can be used. Although Lucario is an extremely dangerous pokemon, he is parable and can also be controlled by the type of Under Used meta that is more than using 4 to 5 walls. PS: If possible, he could also bring down Tentacruel so we add a wall for the special attacking Lucario (who doesn't have many counters). @Munya

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First of all, good afternoon I hope everyone is very good. It seems to me that Porygn Z was a successful decision because it is a strong and very versatile pokemon although many hate him by this, but Lucario I think it seems to me something execatory only for the movements to boost that it has (Nasty Plot and Swords Dance) As a Mixed Lucario with Nasty Plot can sweep a team alone I say a team, I correct Lucario can sweep the whole tier, with some exceptions like Crobat and Golbat, it seems to me that Lucario would be perfect in UU if it had banned these 2 movements, such as Garchomp in OU with "SWORDS DANCE" or  Mienfoo with High Jump Kick in LC Thank you very much.
ATT Rattanne 

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+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 132-156 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 141-166 (68.1 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 147-174 (78.6 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Donphan: 156-184 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 105-124 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Crobat: 72-85 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

These are supposed to be the list of checks to Lucario. First of all, these Pokemon are supposed to be the defensive backbone of a UU team and you are supposed to keep them at over 3/4 of their HP just so Lucario doesn't sweep your team after one Swords Dance. What's even more concerning is that none of these Pokemon has a reliable recovery move, besides Crobat. The requirement to keep these Pokemon at high HP over the course of the game just for Lucario is very unreasonable and unrealistic.

 

I purposely took Life Orb away from these calculations because Focus Sash Lucario would be the standard. It's a Pokemon with the immunity for Sand Stream damage from Gigalith, so getting a Swords Dance off for Lucario would be basically guaranteed as long as there are no entry hazards on the field. Just having one Defog user is sufficient support for Lucario.

 

Dusclops and Gligar in a sense are a combination that will most likely wall Lucario. For a set up Lucario, it's quite impossible to use Crunch and Ice Punch as a coverage move at once (unless you sacrifice Extremespeed, but you shouldn't). Both of these Pokemon are extremely passive in their presence though, and serve quite similar role in the UU metagame if we didn't look at their role of specifically countering Lucario. They are offensively passive yet extremely sturdy Pokemon from the physical defense. Having to dedicate not one but two party slots for this role would scream of Lucario's centralization.

 

With the current updated -6 Teleport priority mechanics, saying that X does not enjoy switching in isn't exactly that relevant anymore because you can so easily get anything in freely these days without even sacrificing a Pokemon thanks to Teleport.

 

I think the most telling about what's going on with this is the second to last paragraph. This really seems like an artificial shakeup to the metagame. Slowbro and Hitmontop are each under 3% usage in UU, Nidoqueen is under 2% in UU - quite far from being any established pieces of the UU metagame. You should be using defensive Pokemon that almost no one wants to use just because of Lucario? And what is exactly gained by having to use these NU Pokemon in UU? Also with Slowbro/Nidoqueen, they only work as reliable counters when used at the same time (or with combination of aforementioned Dusclops/Gligar) because Lucario cannot reasonably carry Crunch and Ice Punch at the same time. As lone pieces they are still subject to a lot of damage. And Hitmontop most certainly doesn't appreciate a +2 Extremespeed.

 

I'd expect the most "reasonable" adaptation for the metagame would be forcing some or multiple of these defensive Pokemon to use Rocky Helmet as their item in order to at the very least take Sash Lucario with them while they're getting KO'd to at least prevent a sweep. Yet, all of this just because Lucario had to be introduced to UU tier, while Lucario's presence adds no real value seems quite unnecessary.

 

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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After giving it a bit of thought I'd like to voice my opinion on this move.

 

I don't think this is something that will last for long. Lucario is ridiculously dangerous for UU standards- 0,25% damage from rocks, resistant to the tier's most common priority (ESpeed/ QA/ Ice Shard/ Sucker/ Fake Out), cannot be intimidated, has 2 main sets and both of them cannot be countered by the same mon at the same time, meaning that it's extremely difficult to wall properly. On top of that, Lucario boasts several good priority moves of it's own which can be used to plow through offensive teams. Great typing which will very likely allow it to get multiple setup opportunities, immunity to poison/ toxic, ability to go for plot/ sd/ band/ scarf/ specs/ mixed/ work up due to it's impressive movepool.

 

I was doing calcs but every calc actually had a boost on it so I would expect Lucario being ran on offensive teams with screens to ease it's setup.

 

What really bothers me is, why Lucario and not Haxorus? When looking at UU tier Haxorus looks WAY less threatening:

-No priority

-Vulnerable to most common UU priority

-Takes full damage from rocks, vulnerable to poison

-Worse movepool, can be only physical

-Worse STAB

-Can be intimidated

 

+Access to taunt

+Faster

+Access to Dragon Dance

+Much bigger attack stat

 

Imo, from perspective of a UU player, bringing Lucario is a mistake. I surely will (ab)use it in the upcoming games to test it further but I would defo prefer bringing Haxorus rather than Lucario.

Edited by RysPicz
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2 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

 

 

Imagine putting slowbro to stop the sword dance and use nasty plot 

That's the worst part, Slowbro doesn't stop SD set:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-172 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

You'd probably need to carry Gligar + Dusclops/ Slowbro just for Lucario alone, unless some pure wallbreaking sets without priority will pop up

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14 hours ago, RysPicz said:

That's the worst part, Slowbro doesn't stop SD set:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 146-172 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

You'd probably need to carry Gligar + Dusclops/ Slowbro just for Lucario alone, unless some pure wallbreaking sets without priority will pop up

Tenta resist all stabs and get ez burn :)

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There are ppl saying `Porygonz seemed strong on paper but turned out fine` 

the difference between poryz and lucario is u can always expect a special poryz with trick, specs agillity nastyplot etc.

so when u build a team u can for example get a gigalith or empo (maybe both) to handle it

 

lucario however is way more difficult to build a team against since it can be physical, mixed or special.

so u have to keep in mind for so much stuff 

 

i hope this is late april 1 joke

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