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Remove Quick Claw and Kings Rock


CHUCKunso

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I won't go in-depth about the reasoning behind it because I feel like we used quite a lot of threads to discuss our arguments. For reference look into this or this post. This suggestion thread is mostly to showcase that we won't just let it slide that we didn't get a reply from most if not any staff members (afaik Munya is the only one to at least reply in either of the two threads linked above) in quite some time concerning this topic. Hence I will simply tag every staff member listed in hopes of a reply.

@Rache@Munya@Squirtle@Desu@Kyu@Bearminator@Shu@SecretDjinn@Teddi@MPDH@Revz@YIBU@BrokenBulb@Darkshade@Gizmo@Mikyii@MrPeruano@Sethsen@Blackjaw@Cosmooth@Drakkmord@Lacei@LordHydra@NewCPlayer@TechnoVortex@xJoseee

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I'd suggest trying again when or if these items ever actually has a significant impact on anything, as it is now I can't even locate a quick claw in usage and the only pokemon I can find significantly using kings rock loses more than it wins.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Munya said:

I'd suggest trying again when or if these items ever actually has a significant impact on anything, as it is now I can't even locate a quick claw in usage and the only pokemon I can find significantly using kings rock loses more than it wins.

 

 

this is a very detrimental way of doing things and you know it, stop being stubborn.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Munya said:

I'd suggest trying again when or if these items ever actually has a significant impact on anything, as it is now I can't even locate a quick claw in usage and the only pokemon I can find significantly using kings rock loses more than it wins.

 

 

So you are saying winrate is what matters here? Okay remove Rotom-Mow from the game please, 8% OU usuage and 56+% WR is just too much.

On a serious note tho, I am pretty sure some posts should already have pointed out how winrate should not be a sole indicator for competitive decisions. You can't tell me that kings rock on cloyster is irrelevant (on the basis that the mon itself has a WR below 50%) to the competitive experience if you are actually able to see kings rock cloyster win off of flinches in deep tourney runs.

 

Edit: And if you are saying the impact is not significant what is the reasoning against banning those items if it just spikes frustration but seemingly is a "inferior" item choice?! Removing them should therefore just bring happy people, overall a more competitive scene and less "noob traps" if the winrate is really so much worse on cloyster compared to other items. While we are at it: What is the Winrate of Sash, Herb and Kings Rock Cloyster compared to each other then? We can't access those statistics afaik so if you have more insight than just the statistic we are able to see please share.

Edited by CHUCKunso
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12 minutes ago, Munya said:

I'd suggest trying again when or if these items ever actually has a significant impact on anything, as it is now I can't even locate a quick claw in usage and the only pokemon I can find significantly using kings rock loses more than it wins.

The problem here isn't win rate and never has been. This is a game, it is supposed to be enjoyable. It is in your best interest for more people to enjoy playing this game. Not only is it incredibly frustrating to play against when they do work but when they don't work you often don't even know the opponent has them equipped, so you don't even feel good when you beat the creatures using these items and only feel bad when you lose to them. Supporting interactive, unintuitive and quite frankly cheap aspects of the game is bad game design, they don't add anything to the game other than being an annoyance and It should be in your best interests to remove them too.

 

If I was to play a game where I roll a dice and I win if the number lands between 1-4, am I having fun? is it a good game? Do I feel good or more skilled when I win the dice roll? This can't be a serious argument, surely.

Also how do you possibly gauge the significance of the impact that enabling sand veil has on Garchomp?

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26 minutes ago, Munya said:

I'd suggest trying again when or if these items ever actually has a significant impact on anything, as it is now I can't even locate a quick claw in usage and the only pokemon I can find significantly using kings rock loses more than it wins.

 

its this lack of knowledge from those who have power + control on competitive which constantly frustrates the player base.

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I don't think there has ever been one thing that the entire competitive community has ever agreed on, except that hax items are terrible for the game and competitive play would be better without them. I have yet to see one person defend them that has even the tiniest of relevance in terms of competitive achievements. But no, I guess we're stuck with them because we're getting the same response every time from people who never had to suffer to play against them that "hax items aren't good", which for the 28th time is completely missing the point.

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7 hours ago, Munya said:

I'd suggest trying again when or if these items ever actually has a significant impact on anything, as it is now I can't even locate a quick claw in usage and the only pokemon I can find significantly using kings rock loses more than it wins.

 

 

Might you try looking at doubles usage... if thats something staff even track/care about

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hax.png.e92fca35691f1c418d9afe2fe83cbf7c.png

First time playing OU all season in matchmaking to come across this stupidity, for the fun of it sat there to see just how often it activated in a face off with CM/QD. every 2-3 turns, i kid you not.

Then Cloyster from Doubles statistics & Ferro from OU as those are the common ones that i've seen.
ferro.png.54afcb98545a2e8daaa1fcc2da42f1b1.pngcloy.png.2415ae0c5f580f0ce14719304d1a74ed.png


No one likes them, why tf are you bothering to fight with keeping them here?

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On 5/4/2021 at 6:04 PM, Munya said:

I'd suggest trying again when or if these items ever actually has a significant impact on anything, as it is now I can't even locate a quick claw in usage and the only pokemon I can find significantly using kings rock loses more than it wins.

 

 

Munya, things are banned all the time in competitive games that deal nothing with winrate and moreso because it doesn't mesh well with the competitive intentions of it's community. In this case, it seems like a lot of the community here would like to minimize the impact of RNG as much as possible.

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Clearly you are missing the first step of getting these items banned from PvP.

If they are so unhealthy, everybody would agree they have to go right?

If you as a community can't even convince your tier council (or whatever flies these days) to ban them, why would you expect the devs to just remove them?

 

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3 minutes ago, axx said:

Clearly you are missing the first step of getting these items banned from PvP.

If they are so unhealthy, everybody would agree they have to go right?

If you as a community can't even convince your tier council (or whatever flies these days) to ban them, why would you expect the devs to just remove them?

 

You're joking, right? Show me one post where a Tier Council member is in favor of hax items. Obviously TC members can't jump on the bandwagon so loudly as rest of the community because it would make the devs' decision to keep these items look bad. TC ultimately is commissioned by the devs and they could get rid of them at any time if they wanted. So obviously, it's not in TC members' best interest to deviate from the guidelines devs have set out.

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Posted (edited)

Sounds like issues run deeper if the TC can't talk openly with the devs.

 

BTW are you a current TC member @OrangeManiac?

I find it strange that if all the members support the idea as you mention it wouldn't stick.

 

Edited by axx
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Posted (edited)

Not necessarily, it's just loyalty towards the people who are giving you a trusted position you wanted to have. And to be fair that's compeltely respectable, but this is why I'm reading none of the current discussion as "TC is not agreeing with the community".

 

Edit: I'm not a TC member, although I was multiple years back.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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16 minutes ago, axx said:

Sounds like issues run deeper if the TC can't talk openly with the devs.

 

BTW are you a current TC member @OrangeManiac?

I find it strange that if all the members support the idea as you mention it wouldn't stick.

 

Can't you even put some effort into researching before speaking? No TC member supports their existence. In fact TC voted against them staying. Just their weight on decision is very minimal compared to the devs, munya and whatnot that don't play competitive yet put weight on the decisions. Munya proposed a pseudo attempt at solving the problem which they plan to implement I guess, if you once again, care to search for it. But then again the solution he proposes still isn't relevant to the RNG factor they provide. 

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I don't believe none of them agree ofc, but I feel like if they had something to say at least Munya would listen instead of being suborn for some reason.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, axx said:

I don't believe none of them agree ofc, but I feel like if they had something to say at least Munya would listen instead of being suborn for some reason.

Well incase you didn't know, staff live in a completely different bubble than the rest of us.

 

The person in charge of putting these items back (someone probably higher up than Munya) is so stubborn that they don't want to admit that they were wrong to drop these items back into the game or even try to engage in a discussion with the community about these items.  They don't engage in a discussion with the community to defend their choice of bringing these items back because they know how they'd be instantly called out for their stupidity.  There have been 3-4 threads already created about these items since November, I think, and there hasn't been any progress on it.  You can even tell that some of the staff are clueless about the effect of these items on competitive play because their immediate defense to keeping these items is to resort to its usage or its winrate, which isn't a valid defense.

 

There's further evidence that staff live in a bubble when they don't realize how awful the reward system + economy of this game is.  You earn so little for the effort you put in.  Like what kind of a comp player would now want a shitty ass 4x25 / 2x31 shiny comp untradeable prize.  "B-but you get to flex it?"  Yeah, at this point I don't think anyone cares about flexing a shiny that they cannot use or when there's no one they can flex it to as the comp playerbase is just dying.

Edited by NikhilR
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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

There's further evidence that staff live in a bubble when they don't realize how awful the reward system + economy of this game is.  You earn so little for the effort you put in.  Like what kind of a comp player would now want a shitty ass 4x25 / 2x31 shiny comp untradeable prize.  "B-but you get to flex it?"  Yeah, at this point I don't think anyone cares about flexing a shiny that they cannot use or when there's no one they can flex it to as the comp playerbase is just dying.

This is by design, I believe they don't want to create a further divide between new players and veterans who consistently win tourneys.

Now this is unfair for the latter as indeed you don't get anything out of PvP but the experience itself, and frankly smogon works much better for that.

 

The reward system was broken from the start, but there isn't really an easy solution.

Can't put all the eggs in a basket when it is not clear for them what the real endgame is.

 

Anyways, this seems to be a discussion for another topic.

Edited by axx
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Not going to comment on a lot of the speculation here, as I feel its better suited for somebody with a bit better command of the English language than i have to do and not have something misinterpreted. But on the topic of TC being able to speak or not, they are free to.  The only things we really ask from them is to keep things civil when it comes to things involving the position of TC, so anything related to tiering, but even then they can freely say what they are for or against. Then we ask them to not disclose another members vote without their consent as we allow anonymity to those who wish it, spend a week in my shoes and you might understand why we do that.  And that they don't disclose any information on upcoming features that they may find out about in certain circumstances before others without us either already announcing said features or giving the okay to do so.

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