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I vote to ban P-Z from UU.

With our current usage right now, P-Z outspeeds 2/3 of the tier. The 12 mons that outspeed P-Z all get OHKO by Spec Tri Attack from P-Z and less than half of them have access to a move that can OHKO P

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Personally im not sure about p-z yet.. The first issue that it brought was that it seemingly is a lot centralising for the tier that it instantly shifted the meta. But on the other hand i have yet to see it overinfluence games as it is presented to do. Many factors can pitch into that(outplays, hax, poor usage etc). I try to compare it with yanmega because they have similar powers offensively and not many pokemons switch into any of those two. The drawback to yanmega is that it is really weak to rocks but on the other hand its typing also offers key resistances/immunities such as fighting and ground which are types that are really good in the tier. Also yanmega has the advantage of not having to predict when it comes in. Its moves dont get resisted, so there is no outplay potential. You have to throw something that can tank the hit. They have other differences aswell but im getting out of point. I personally believe that more testing is needed since in my opinion the uu community hasnt finished adapting into p-z yet. The first month ive seen either players not switching it up at all or hard counter the possibility that their opponent might run p-z. And while p-z might be overcentralising i personally cannot be sure about it yet since the meta hasnt stabilised around it. Because in my opinion that would be the main reason that would justify a ban. Making the meta unhealthy by revolving too much around and not it being broken offensively since it has been proven that it can be checked even if its just by a handful of mons.

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On 4/26/2021 at 3:27 AM, gbwead said:

With our current usage right now, P-Z outspeeds 2/3 of the tier. The 12 mons that outspeed P-Z all get OHKO by Spec Tri Attack from P-Z and less than half of them have access to a move that can OHKO P-Z. I think it's safe to say that P-Z is an extremely serious and dangerous threat.

This is absolutely misleading. First of all outspeeding 2/3 of the tier makes no sense cause you are mixing offensive with defensive pokemon alike. So that number is pretty irrelevant. Second of all, out of those 12 pokemon, only 5 are unable to ohko Porygon-z,  2 of them having a really high chance to do it after rock damage. (And I'm already removing stuff like band crobat out of equation cause its not simply used)

 

On 4/26/2021 at 3:27 AM, gbwead said:

 Gigalith is by far the best answer and remains vulnerable to Tri attack 20% status proc. Even though some of these mons work, most of them are not very impressive or fail to stop P-Z reliably.

This is honestly the same as saying cofagrigus fails to stop conkeldurr reliably cause ice punch can freeze. 

 

Now regarding metashift some people are claiming about: While p-z has some impact on it, I don't think we can forget jellicent just moved up, pretty much unlocking stuff like fighting spam, pressuring vaporeon hard to deal into water types, as well as leading to a rise of dusclops, that for itself allows many other things to rise because they can abuse it. Also UU received 2 pokemon that deal with the previously #1 used Pokemon by a large margin, Rotom-h. Because of this I believe tier would unmistakenly shift hard one way or another, and p-z just added an extra layer of chaos there that we need to wait to see how players will adapt. 

 

And finally addressing Porygon-z, It is a wallbreaker so I can't see why having 'Only' 5 answers is a bad thing. It breaks wall, it is its job. A wallbreaker that wouldn't break walls wouldn't be a wallbreaker at all. As some people pointed, Porygon-z is strong vs offense? No, offense is the worst matchup for Porygon-z actually, mostly because what I said in my paragraph. 

 

Tldr; Please give it time.

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15 minutes ago, pachima said:

This is honestly the same as saying cofagrigus fails to stop conkeldurr reliably cause ice punch can freeze. 

tbf I don't think it's the exact same thing, seeing as PoryZ Tri Attack is much more spammable, while Ice Punch doesn't even fit on every Conk that sees play. So the chance to see Tri Attack rng its main answers is considerably higher.

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15 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

tbf I don't think it's the exact same thing, seeing as PoryZ Tri Attack is much more spammable, while Ice Punch doesn't even fit on every Conk that sees play. So the chance to see Tri Attack rng its main answers is considerably higher.

Sorry I should have expressed myself better. Indeed chances are higher, but in practice considering p-z actually doesn't have many tri attack blasts in a single game, from what I've been seeing, odds are still low, and although they are more relevant than conk's, they feel to me still pretty unworthy of considering. In other words I don't believe a 20% of a random proc that may or may not actually matter is, to me, a viable argument towards a ban of a Pokemon. What makes this low procrate apparently terrifying is the fact tri attack is super spammable and hurts a lot, however, that's a problem of the damage itself as well as its spammability, and not the rng. As such, I'd prefer if we stayed on the real issue rather than trying to create additional problems that in fact are just an extension of the first one.

Edited by pachima
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9 hours ago, SweeTforU said:

3 days ago iMat lost final with poryz vs non poryz team bro nice facts 

you are one of the best player of this game, it's normal that you can win without even using the most broken pokemon in the UU
but I saw which one of you is match you still play 2 steel poke including a full def spe with protection ^^
so you consider porygon z more than other pokemon UU in your teambuild.

 

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it always hurts me to come and discuss on this meta forum when I know that many of you are stubborn and do not always understand the games

 

4 hours ago, pachima said:

This is absolutely misleading. First of all outspeeding 2/3 of the tier makes no sense cause you are mixing offensive with defensive pokemon alike. So that number is pretty irrelevant. Second of all, out of those 12 pokemon, only 5 are unable to ohko Porygon-z,  2 of them having a really high chance to do it after rock damage. (And I'm already removing stuff like band crobat out of equation cause its not simply used)

 

This is honestly the same as saying cofagrigus fails to stop conkeldurr reliably cause ice punch can freeze. 

 

Now regarding metashift some people are claiming about: While p-z has some impact on it, I don't think we can forget jellicent just moved up, pretty much unlocking stuff like fighting spam, pressuring vaporeon hard to deal into water types, as well as leading to a rise of dusclops, that for itself allows many other things to rise because they can abuse it. Also UU received 2 pokemon that deal with the previously #1 used Pokemon by a large margin, Rotom-h. Because of this I believe tier would unmistakenly shift hard one way or another, and p-z just added an extra layer of chaos there that we need to wait to see how players will adapt. 

 

And finally addressing Porygon-z, It is a wallbreaker so I can't see why having 'Only' 5 answers is a bad thing. It breaks wall, it is its job. A wallbreaker that wouldn't break walls wouldn't be a wallbreaker at all. As some people pointed, Porygon-z is strong vs offense? No, offense is the worst matchup for Porygon-z actually, mostly because what I said in my paragraph. 

 

Tldr; Please give it time.

if you hit a cofra with fist ice flame orb
you activated the cofra talent and therefore you will do negative damage unless you frezze 10 turn it does not work and still the guy can switch now that you have activated the cofra talent

where porygon z is different it is that triplatque at 20% that it is are stab and that in addition it hits harder

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gb has summarized very well the problem with pz to continue forced to maintain it UU if you want a non-strategic tiers party it is your right

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19 minutes ago, MadaraSixSix said:

you are one of the best player of this game, it's normal that you can win without even using the most broken pokemon in the UU
but I saw which one of you is match you still play 2 steel poke including a full def spe with protection ^^
so you consider porygon z more than other pokemon UU in your teambuild.

 

Nah I played 1 steel type and yes it was a spdef invested so i could switch in to poryz but there is absolutely no difference between this to running full def druddigon so I can counter krooko, or running max def crobat to counter heracross. There are more than enough scary mons to be looking out from than just pory-z and that's why you must match yourself to the tier, I think that what scares the community isn't pory-z, what scares the mmo community is actually adopting the idea that tiers can and should change from time to time, and switching their beloved cores and mons from time to time - based on the new tier changes with the new fresh and sometime scary mons that joined the tier that month.

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20 minutes ago, SweeTforU said:

Nah I played 1 steel type and yes it was a spdef invested so i could switch in to poryz but there is absolutely no difference between this to running full def druddigon so I can counter krooko, or running max def crobat to counter heracross. There are more than enough scary mons to be looking out from than just pory-z and that's why you must match yourself to the tier, I think that what scares the community isn't pory-z, what scares the mmo community is actually adopting the idea that tiers can and should change from time to time, and switching their beloved cores and mons from time to time - based on the new tier changes with the new fresh and sometime scary mons that joined the tier that month.

I don't know if I am imagining things or if your post was removed, but didn't you ask recently for Gigalith and Slowbro to get banned from NU. 

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40 minutes ago, SweeTforU said:

Nah I played 1 steel type and yes it was a spdef invested so i could switch in to poryz but there is absolutely no difference between this to running full def druddigon so I can counter krooko, or running max def crobat to counter heracross. There are more than enough scary mons to be looking out from than just pory-z and that's why you must match yourself to the tier, I think that what scares the community isn't pory-z, what scares the mmo community is actually adopting the idea that tiers can and should change from time to time, and switching their beloved cores and mons from time to time - based on the new tier changes with the new fresh and sometime scary mons that joined the tier that month.

sry I confused with another player

 

no difference with croc and heracross? heracross and croc have many counter and check, than pz

 

I've been playing this game for a while, the tiers parties have always changed, it doesn't bother me as long as the tiers party is still strategic,

 

currently this is not the case

 

 

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20 minutes ago, MadaraSixSix said:

no difference with croc and heracross? heracross and croc have many counter and check, than pz

Yes, this is the exact problem. MMO community has been fed up with countless answers for every single Pokemon to a point where they don't just want any Pokemon to have counters but also demand so. 

I know I shouldn't really compare MMO with showdown but this mentality in showdown would lead to 70% of bans in every tier. Walbreaks are designed to have little to no counters, period. 

No counters is no longer an argument for a ban, ever since ice age. The real problem arises when a no-counter Pokemon is also able to reach the field with relatively ease, as well as being able to pressure other stuff than stall, which I have yet Porygon-z to accomplish.

 

Fun fact: Heracross actually possesses less counters than P-z in NU. The only difference is that its best answer also happens to be one of the most used Pokemon, meaning tools are there just waiting for players to pick them up.

Edited by pachima
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17 minutes ago, pachima said:

Yes, this is the exact problem. MMO community has been fed up with countless answers for every single Pokemon to a point where they don't just want any Pokemon to have counters but also demand so. 

I know I shouldn't really compare MMO with showdown but this mentality in showdown would lead to 70% of bans in every tier. Walbreaks are designed to have little to no counters, period. 

No counters is no longer an argument for a ban, ever since ice age. The real problem arises when a no-counter Pokemon is also able to reach the field with relatively ease, as well as being able to pressure other stuff than stall, which I have yet Porygon-z to accomplish.

 

Fun fact: Heracross actually possesses less counters than P-z in NU. The only difference is that its best answer also happens to be one of the most used Pokemon, meaning tools are there just waiting for players to pick them up.

Wallbreakers are designed to have little to counters, sure. That's not the issue and no one is disputing that. The problem is that a wallbreaker needs a good amount of prediction in order to wallbreak which is absolutely not the case with P-Z that can spam 1 single move, Tri Attack, against pretty much 95% of the tier.

 

Idk what Heracross in NU has to do with this.

Edited by gbwead
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29 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Wallbreakers are designed to have little to counters, sure. That's not the issue and no one is disputing that. The problem is that a wallbreaker needs a good amount of prediction in order to wallbreak which is absolutely not the case with P-Z that can spam 1 single move, Tri Attack, against pretty much 95% of the tier.

 

Idk what Heracross in NU has to do with this.

This is why i compared yanmega with porygon-z.. I dont think that tri attack is as spammable as you present it to be. Bug buzz is way more spammable since iirc only crobat can actually resist it if yanmega uses tinted lens while there are multiple resistances to tri attack and the rng factor shouldnt be taken into consideration when we theorise. Hax are luck. You might get good rng in every single attack you fire or not get any of them. The way rng works is that every attack has a certain % to get a status so u eventually can fire 10 tri attacks and every single one has 20% each. So in any of those 10 u play for a 20% chance to get a status. Any player who respects him/her self wouldnt play for that. As sweet said any team should have answers to big threats on the tier like a heracross switch or a pz switch or idk what switch. So him running spdef invested empoleon shouldnt be a shock.. Its an adaption to a new threat as for example he already used to run crobat in his team so he has a fighting switch. That doesnt nessecarily mean that hera or pz are broken. It means that he adapts to pokemons that might threaten him

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16 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

This is why i compared yanmega with porygon-z.. I dont think that tri attack is as spammable as you present it to be. Bug buzz is way more spammable since iirc only crobat can actually resist it if yanmega uses tinted lens while there are multiple resistances to tri attack and the rng factor shouldnt be taken into consideration when we theorise. Hax are luck. You might get good rng in every single attack you fire or not get any of them. The way rng works is that every attack has a certain % to get a status so u eventually can fire 10 tri attacks and every single one has 20% each. So in any of those 10 u play for a 20% chance to get a status. Any player who respects him/her self wouldnt play for that. As sweet said any team should have answers to big threats on the tier like a heracross switch or a pz switch or idk what switch. So him running spdef invested empoleon shouldnt be a shock.. Its an adaption to a new threat as for example he already used to run crobat in his team so he has a fighting switch. That doesnt nessecarily mean that hera or pz are broken. It means that he adapts to pokemons that might threaten him

steal rock > yanmega  just for it dont compare pz with yanemga

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10 minutes ago, MadaraSixSix said:

steal rock > yanmega  just for it dont compare pz with yanemga

I know.. Im pretty sure if yanmega didnt get hit like this by rocks we would have it banned in here.. Anyway i didnt compare them as a whole but as STAB spamming.. After they ve come into play. To conclude i still believe a stable meta is needed with p-z in, to decide if its overcentralising for the tier therefore requires a ban. 

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53 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

Lo sé.. Estoy bastante seguro de que si yanmega no fuera golpeado así por las rocas, lo habríamos prohibido aquí. De todos modos, no los comparé como un todo, sino como spam de STAB.. Después de que hayan entrado en juego. Para concluir, sigo creyendo que se necesita un meta estable con p-z, para decidir si su sobrecentralización para el nivel, por lo tanto, requiere una prohibición.

snorlax and p2 cover yanmega pretty well

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58 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

Gigalith can handle both and snorlax and p2 can handle p-z aswell in some scenarios. 

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 70-84 (36.6 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

Pz spamea tri attack and P2 recover.  and it's a matter of turns for me to paralyze, burn or freeze you.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Thenavarro said:

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 70-84 (36.6 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

Pz spamea tri attack and P2 recover.  and it's a matter of turns for me to paralyze, burn or freeze you.

 

 

As i said this is luck dependant.. We played vs each other and u paralyzed me with p2 on your first tri attack while u walled 6 of my pz tri attacks. Exact same scenario with the p2 player winning(you) while the pz player lost(me). So why we claim that rng related scenarios is a reason for a ban? 

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3 hours ago, Umbramol said:

As i said this is luck dependant.. We played vs each other and u paralyzed me with p2 on your first tri attack while u walled 6 of my pz tri attacks. Exact same scenario with the p2 player winning(you) while the pz player lost(me). So why we claim that rng related scenarios is a reason for a ban? 

But in a scenario where P2 is your switch in to Specs PZ, you tank a tri attack and you're forced to recover, you can't afford to tri attack once or you might die, so the PZ can freely spam Tri attack and wait for a status

Also on Thenavarro's calc it is a scenario where the PZ isn't even +1 speatk with download, I suppose a max spedef P2 would get 2hko'd after rocks in that case

Edited by Azphiel
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5 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

So why we claim that rng related scenarios is a reason for a ban? 

You're missing the point. Rng alone is not a problem, but the whole set is. Few months ago, Sand veil was removed from competitive, but was actualy broken? not really, Garchomp was to blame because he was broken by itself. I fell like P-Z its the same thing, a very strong mon without rng factor, with it the problem is even bigger. I'm still not sure if a ban is necessary, thats why i asked what TC's think in the first place, but from what I've been reading,it seems so.

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