Jump to content

Remove hax items and hax abilities from competitive play.


Recommended Posts

43 minutes ago, BaldManGoat said:

I was just pointing out reasons I believe they don't need a ban. I don't consider them to be unhealthy items either. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to be banned. I think they're both funny items you can troll around with for time to time, you can't just push for a ban on items when you dislike playing against them. That's the same thing as saying tbolt should be banned because I got paraed and lost my game. Dark pulse should get banned because I got flinched. I fail to see a true reason for banning or nerfing the items. I also don't think it really takes the "skill" out of it either, to begin with the battling itself hardly takes skill considering the crits and hax that take place in the first place. Correct me if I am wrong, but scope lens isn't banned(to my knowledge) and it also has a similar affect of boosting hax. Banning items because you don't like playing against them is not a good enough reason to convince people to actually ban it. 

unknown.png

 

unknown.png

 

Just wanted to post two examples of item abuses when I was playing ladder yesterday - Kings Rock Weavile and Quick Claw Gastrodon.

 

I've seen a few people use Kings Rock on Weavile but when would you ever expect to see a quick claw Gastrodon (this was an offensive set) and the item being activated twice in a row? Regarding Weavile, having to play a scarf mon just to reduce the risk of this happening (bearing in mind other factors such as ice shard and hazards) is stupid when it's a very unlikely possibility of this happening.

 

Quote

 

 

That's the same thing as saying tbolt should be banned because I got paraed and lost my game. Dark pulse should get banned because I got flinched.

 

No it's not - as annoying as it is we accept the risk of flinches and status conditions as being part of the game and the likelihood of this happening is much lower. The difference is that players don't abuse this on purpose, (e.g. I'm going to spam thunderbolt to try get a parahax) compared to (I know that Kings Rock increases the chance of flinch so that'll be my main game plan).

 

Quote

Correct me if I am wrong, but scope lens isn't banned(to my knowledge) and it also has a similar affect of boosting hax.

From my experiences when I've used Drapion with scope lens & sniper it rarely crits, yes Honchkrow and Absol seem to crit a lot more (from my experience), but we know that's part of the Pokemon's strength and the most common item they use - when would you expect to see a Kings Rock or Quick Claw item on a certain mon?

 

Generally, as others pointed out these items promote luck rather than skill, and if these items fail then the players tend to not have a plan B.

 

 

 

Edited by Imperial
Link to comment
10 hours ago, BaldManGoat said:

I usually just lurk, but I see no one pointing the possible obvious reasons these abilities/items haven't been banned. As for the abilities sand veil and snow cloak both have easy counters, and you should be well aware of them coming so there really should be no complaints about them, bring a weather setter of your own and problem solved. Things that have easy outplays and are known threats shouldn't be a ban because you can't build around it. 

 

As for quick claw and kings rock, I would much rather face kings rock cloyster than focus sash and even white herb for that matter. The fact that in order to bring a cheesey item like kings rock into play you have to sacrifice the focus sash. A cloyster without focus sash should pose so little of a threat to a player that knows how to play around cloyster that the kings rock they brought instead won't even have a chance to be put into affect. You people act like serene grace air slashes don't exist in the same tier as cloyster, do we have to ban togekiss from PVP because the players are crying about hax? Hax is apart of battling, and something we all should be use to losing against in some games. As for quick claw, I haven't had enough exposure to the item but it goes without saying that leftovers/berries/choice items are way more consistent than quick claw is. People need to sacrifice other better items to use the cheese, and no matter how much it hurts to lose to RNG it shouldn't be banned.

 

On 4/15/2021 at 10:32 PM, NikhilR said:

Why do people like you who have absolutely zero clue about PvP feel the need to comment on a PvP-related topic?  

 

Nonetheless, I'll still take the time and effort to entertain your worthless and uninformed opinion because there are a few who would genuinely want to know the answer to this.  We want our pokemon competitive play to be on a level where there is a balance between luck and skill.  There is going to be a conflict there because, in general, competitive play largely relies on skill over luck, yet we competitively play a game that uses a large number of luck-based elements.  To balance out the two, we have clauses in place to minimize the amount of effect luck has on a game.  Since you're absolutely clueless about it, here is a list of clauses in place:

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/

 

The purpose of the clauses is so that people don't rely on luck-based strategies to overcome skill, because that in effect would kill competitive play.  The purpose of the topic is to remove these specific luck-based elements (kings rock etc.) because these completely kill competitive play.  We're not asking to remove crits / damage rolls / status because then we wouldn't really be playing Pokemon.  Not every single thing has to be in the extreme end of a spectrum (one end being 0 RNG and the other end being 0 bans/clauses) because a balance of the two can exist.

Gonna quote my good friend to save time on repeating what he said. 

Link to comment
4 hours ago, BaldManGoat said:

I was just pointing out reasons I believe they don't need a ban. I don't consider them to be unhealthy items either. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to be banned. I think they're both funny items you can troll around with for time to time, you can't just push for a ban on items when you dislike playing against them. That's the same thing as saying tbolt should be banned because I got paraed and lost my game. Dark pulse should get banned because I got flinched. I fail to see a true reason for banning or nerfing the items. I also don't think it really takes the "skill" out of it either, to begin with the battling itself hardly takes skill considering the crits and hax that take place in the first place. Correct me if I am wrong, but scope lens isn't banned(to my knowledge) and it also has a similar affect of boosting hax. Banning items because you don't like playing against them is not a good enough reason to convince people to actually ban it. 

So getting flinched nonstop by skill link + rock blast/icicle spear is healthy? If these items/abilities aren't taking the skill out of the battles, then what are we benefitting from them in return? Memes? It's not that they're taking the skill out of anything, but they simply don't require any skill at all. I wouldn't tunnel vision on the items themselves, but instead focus on the combination of them and how they're used. For example, in your previous post scope lens does in fact support rng and can be paired with high crit ratio moves + the ability super luck. However, there are ways to prevent these mons from sweeping by playing around them. In contrast, items like kings rock lets the user not care about any of that. If you're getting flinched every time, then you're not worried at all. Funny item, right? I don't see enough reason to convince people to actually keep it. 

 

Also I thought there were restrictions on posting for new people that join forums, but I guess that's only for the suggestions thread. 

Link to comment
19 hours ago, BaldManGoat said:

I usually just lurk, but I see no one pointing the possible obvious reasons these abilities/items haven't been banned. As for the abilities sand veil and snow cloak both have easy counters, and you should be well aware of them coming so there really should be no complaints about them, bring a weather setter of your own and problem solved. Things that have easy outplays and are known threats shouldn't be a ban because you can't build around it. 

"Bring a weather setter of your own."  Okay, so let's look at the list of non-sand weather setters in OU.  From what I understand it's mostly Pelipper, with Abomasnow + Torkoal being weather setters in the lower tier.  Of the 3, you will find Pelipper + Torkoal in teams centered around a weather strategy, which means on almost any other kind of team, these mons won't really have a slot.  Aboma is a decent pick, but you think that's good enough?  Let's say Abomasnow comes in, which is a rocks weak mon, you can either go to Abomanow's counter, or sack something and then bring Hippo back in to set sand up again.  With rocks being on field too, Abomasnow is not going to be able to freely switch in, and it's not a mon that you easily slap onto an OU team because it rarely has much of an impact.  These are terrible answers to deal with Sand Veil and their purpose is so specific -> stop a cheap strategy rather than have utility of your own.  I'm not a fan of using such kind of mons.

EDIT: Don't even bother bringing up Golduck unless you want to lose all credibility.

 

19 hours ago, BaldManGoat said:

As for quick claw and kings rock, I would much rather face kings rock cloyster than focus sash and even white herb for that matter. The fact that in order to bring a cheesey item like kings rock into play you have to sacrifice the focus sash. A cloyster without focus sash should pose so little of a threat to a player that knows how to play around cloyster that the kings rock they brought instead won't even have a chance to be put into affect. You people act like serene grace air slashes don't exist in the same tier as cloyster, do we have to ban togekiss from PVP because the players are crying about hax? Hax is apart of battling, and something we all should be use to losing against in some games. As for quick claw, I haven't had enough exposure to the item but it goes without saying that leftovers/berries/choice items are way more consistent than quick claw is. People need to sacrifice other better items to use the cheese, and no matter how much it hurts to lose to RNG it shouldn't be banned.

Yeah enlighten us on how you play around flinches from Kings Rock Cloyster at +2.  You're a follower of the all-or-nothing camp that believes in that there either be 100% RNG or 0% RNG, and we don't belong in that camp.

 

10 hours ago, BaldManGoat said:

I was just pointing out reasons I believe they don't need a ban. I don't consider them to be unhealthy items either. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to be banned. I think they're both funny items you can troll around with for time to time, you can't just push for a ban on items when you dislike playing against them. That's the same thing as saying tbolt should be banned because I got paraed and lost my game. Dark pulse should get banned because I got flinched. I fail to see a true reason for banning or nerfing the items. I also don't think it really takes the "skill" out of it either, to begin with the battling itself hardly takes skill considering the crits and hax that take place in the first place. Correct me if I am wrong, but scope lens isn't banned(to my knowledge) and it also has a similar affect of boosting hax. Banning items because you don't like playing against them is not a good enough reason to convince people to actually ban it. 

Man, this isn't a "I don't like this because I lost to this and therefore it should be banned" thread.  This is a "I don't like this because I lose to it as I can't prepare for it and therefore it should be banned."  When in order to beat a strategy you have to be reliant on luck rather than prepare for it, there's a problem.  There's no way to prepare avoiding being flinched by Cloyster unless you're running 6x special attackers that completely deny Cloyster the ability to set up, because once it does, there's no real way to prepare beforehand to avoid being flinched.  The same applies to something like Quick Claw because:
1) you have no fucking clue if a mon does have it;
2) you have no idea whether it will activate.

While I do think SG Togekiss is banworthy for separate reasons, it is still something that you can prepare for.

 

----------------------------

 

Also I hope the "smart" folks at Pokemmo who decided it would be a good idea to drop these items below give this a read:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/re-king’s-rock-and-other-“luck-items”.3682896/

Glad that Smogon TC isn't incompetent and decided to try banning these items before WCOP.

Edited by NikhilR
Link to comment

From tiering perspective, these items are completly insignificant and whoever chooses to play them simply hinders his/her chances of winning, so I don't see the point in TC banning them. Devs/Staff should however ban these items since these items bring absolutely nothing but frustration to us PvP players and there is no downfall to removing them anyways. 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, gbwead said:

From tiering perspective, these items are completly insignificant and whoever chooses to play them simply hinders his/her chances of winning, so I don't see the point in TC banning them. Devs/Staff should however ban these items since these items bring absolutely nothing but frustration to us PvP players and there is no downfall to removing them anyways. 

Massive cap.  How is Kings Rock on Cloyster insignificant or how does it hinder the user's chances of winning?  A +2 Focus Sash or White Herb Cloyster is probably not beating Bold Reuniclus, but one with Kings Rock has higher odds of beating Bold Reuni because of the higher flinch rate.  If anything it helps Cloyster beat things that it wouldn't otherwise be able to beat.

 

Now, are there situations where it would be advantageous to using Focus Sash or White Herb on Cloyster over Kings Rock?  Yes, but not all the time.  The issue is that you make it sound like as if Kings Rock is a completely inferior item to others, when it really isn't.

Edited by NikhilR
Link to comment
35 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Massive cap.  How is Kings Rock on Cloyster insignificant or how does it hinder the user's chances of winning?  A +2 Focus Sash or White Herb Cloyster is probably not beating Bold Reuniclus, but one with Kings Rock has higher odds of beating Bold Reuni because of the higher flinch rate.  If anything it helps Cloyster beat things that it wouldn't otherwise be able to beat.

 

Now, are there situations where it would be advantageous to using Focus Sash or White Herb on Cloyster over Kings Rock?  Yes, but not all the time.  The issue is that you make it sound like as if Kings Rock is a completely inferior item to others, when it really isn't.

Kings Rock Cloyster is kind of the exception when it comes to these items and even that isn't that good really. I was refering mostly to quick claw and focus band which are utterly useless and unplayable.

Link to comment
On 4/24/2021 at 6:04 PM, NikhilR said:

"Bring a weather setter of your own."  Okay, so let's look at the list of non-sand weather setters in OU.  From what I understand it's mostly Pelipper, with Abomasnow + Torkoal being weather setters in the lower tier.  Of the 3, you will find Pelipper + Torkoal in teams centered around a weather strategy, which means on almost any other kind of team, these mons won't really have a slot.  Aboma is a decent pick, but you think that's good enough?  Let's say Abomasnow comes in, which is a rocks weak mon, you can either go to Abomanow's counter, or sack something and then bring Hippo back in to set sand up again.  With rocks being on field too, Abomasnow is not going to be able to freely switch in, and it's not a mon that you easily slap onto an OU team because it rarely has much of an impact.  These are terrible answers to deal with Sand Veil and their purpose is so specific -> stop a cheap strategy rather than have utility of your own.  I'm not a fan of using such kind of mons.

EDIT: Don't even bother bringing up Golduck unless you want to lose all credibility.

 

Yeah enlighten us on how you play around flinches from Kings Rock Cloyster at +2.  You're a follower of the all-or-nothing camp that believes in that there either be 100% RNG or 0% RNG, and we don't belong in that camp.

 

Man, this isn't a "I don't like this because I lost to this and therefore it should be banned" thread.  This is a "I don't like this because I lose to it as I can't prepare for it and therefore it should be banned."  When in order to beat a strategy you have to be reliant on luck rather than prepare for it, there's a problem.  There's no way to prepare avoiding being flinched by Cloyster unless you're running 6x special attackers that completely deny Cloyster the ability to set up, because once it does, there's no real way to prepare beforehand to avoid being flinched.  The same applies to something like Quick Claw because:
1) you have no fucking clue if a mon does have it;
2) you have no idea whether it will activate.

While I do think SG Togekiss is banworthy for separate reasons, it is still something that you can prepare for.

 

----------------------------

 

Also I hope the "smart" folks at Pokemmo who decided it would be a good idea to drop these items below give this a read:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/re-king’s-rock-and-other-“luck-items”.3682896/

Glad that Smogon TC isn't incompetent and decided to try banning these items before WCOP.

I was saying in general, I do not believe sand veil is such a problem that you would even need to team build around. However, there are options to deal with sand veil with other weather setters. Although I do agree it is a lot harder to play around, I still don't think it is player unfriendly enough to get a ban. I hate garchomp just as much as the next guy, but I also don't think it is something that is over the top of what you would expect from rng abilities. Consider flame body and static, in a rng based argument they are essentially the same as sand veil as to it is a chance where they will active on you. There are also other moves that don't check accuracy but they would fit into the same group as weather setters for the most part, or maybe even some compound eyes memes.

 

As for quick claw, I have no clue what the argument is for it. "you have no fucking clue if a mon does have it", lets say I bring a specs torkoal into a battle under a trick room and blow up your entire team, is specs unfair because "who would've thought a torkoal would bring specs?" If you need to know what mons bring what for certainty why even team build anymore? Whether or not it actives is a 90/10% chance in your favor which means most of the times you face a quick claw you don't even know its there. Losing to quick claw is painful in it's own right but I don't see why we need to ban an item because it is unexpected that someone brought it, and 10% of the time it ends you. To me that is a balanced ratio, and if anything I'd gladly play against quick claw.

 

The play around factor of a kings rock cloyster is to ohko it before the setup because of its lack of focus sash. Another way is to bring priority of your own because kings rock is nearly useless when forced into an ice shard situation, yes it can flinch with shard too but the odds are very small, and aren't truly effective(unless in a 1v1 at the end of a battle). Sucker punch goes before cloyster every time, but the only true sucker punch user that could beat cloyster is bisharp, and only if rocks are up. Other things like banded technician scizor also 2 ohko after rocks. Things like mach punch conkeldurr can play around them as well. Ideally the goal is to ohko cloyster before the setup to completely render it useless. There is ways to prepare for cloyster outside of tanking it, a well prepared team with 2-3 special attackers shouldn't even have to worry about no sash cloyster being a threat if played correctly(obviously given how the game plays out/team matchups).

 

Preparing for scarf air slash togekiss is hardly different and the flinch chance being close to the same as well.

Link to comment
On 4/24/2021 at 12:22 PM, xSparkie said:

So getting flinched nonstop by skill link + rock blast/icicle spear is healthy? If these items/abilities aren't taking the skill out of the battles, then what are we benefitting from them in return? Memes? It's not that they're taking the skill out of anything, but they simply don't require any skill at all. I wouldn't tunnel vision on the items themselves, but instead focus on the combination of them and how they're used. For example, in your previous post scope lens does in fact support rng and can be paired with high crit ratio moves + the ability super luck. However, there are ways to prevent these mons from sweeping by playing around them. In contrast, items like kings rock lets the user not care about any of that. If you're getting flinched every time, then you're not worried at all. Funny item, right? I don't see enough reason to convince people to actually keep it. 

 

Also I thought there were restrictions on posting for new people that join forums, but I guess that's only for the suggestions thread. 

So sucker punch + super luck absol + scope lens, is completely different? It promotes rng, but its not annoying so leave it alone? Considering night slash + super luck + scope lens is a higher crit chance than kings rock flinch, but since it is easier to play around we should leave it be? As an item alone they both promote rng in the same way, and are abused by certain mons in the same way. So we should keep some meme rng items because you're not losing to them, and they can be fun to see in a battle? It sounds nice to say lets keep it 50/50 rng/skill ratio but unless you get rid of crits/para hax there will always be more luck than skill in pokemon battling, the skill comes from the teambuilding. Let's just ban kings rock away from cloyster and keep it in the game then. Cloyster almost always need the shell smash to set up the kings rock win, absol could late game sweep without the swords dance, and just start going to town right away. The setup turn cloyster needs makes absol super luck a more brain dead strat in the end. The argument is missing, you can teambuild around cloyster and don't let him smash in your face and you can win with faster mons.

Link to comment
3 hours ago, BaldManGoat said:

I was saying in general, I do not believe sand veil is such a problem that you would even need to team build around. However, there are options to deal with sand veil with other weather setters. Although I do agree it is a lot harder to play around, I still don't think it is player unfriendly enough to get a ban. I hate garchomp just as much as the next guy, but I also don't think it is something that is over the top of what you would expect from rng abilities. Consider flame body and static, in a rng based argument they are essentially the same as sand veil as to it is a chance where they will active on you. There are also other moves that don't check accuracy but they would fit into the same group as weather setters for the most part, or maybe even some compound eyes memes.

No one builds around Sand Veil because there's no way to properly deal with it.  You said to use weather setters as a way to deal with it and I just showed you how horrible that answer was.  Flame Body + Static do have RNG associated with it, but it's different from Sand Veil where one potentially leads to a sweep and another doesn't directly sweep.  A Garchomp dodging an attack due to Sand Veil and potentially sweeping is different from you not taking into account of Flame Body / Static activation.  Both of those have some strategy around it where you can punish something like U-Turn Scizor by switching in Volcarona against it.  Flame Body / Static activation happen because of a choice you make, basically player autonomy.

 

Moreover, when people decide to use something like Quick Claw, their strategy is to simply fish for RNG, whereas no one goes into a game with a strategy that their course of winning relies on Flame Body / Static activation.  

 

3 hours ago, BaldManGoat said:

As for quick claw, I have no clue what the argument is for it. "you have no fucking clue if a mon does have it", lets say I bring a specs torkoal into a battle under a trick room and blow up your entire team, is specs unfair because "who would've thought a torkoal would bring specs?" If you need to know what mons bring what for certainty why even team build anymore? Whether or not it actives is a 90/10% chance in your favor which means most of the times you face a quick claw you don't even know its there. Losing to quick claw is painful in it's own right but I don't see why we need to ban an item because it is unexpected that someone brought it, and 10% of the time it ends you. To me that is a balanced ratio, and if anything I'd gladly play against quick claw.

Specs is an item that people prepare for.  It's also an item that one can readily tell based on damage output on a certain mon.  By also knowing if a mon has specs, you can then choose how to play around it, like taking advantage of the fact that Torkoal is choice-locked.  This doesn't apply to a pokemon holding quick claw.  Like let's say you're Quick Claw Rhyperior and you moved after a Clefable.  You may be able to tell through the damage roll -> okay this isn't Choice Band, Scarf, LO.  If you bring a low-health Blastoise with Surf, and then Quick Claw activates, it becomes too late.  Let's say you even know prior to bringing Blastoise out that the Rhyperior is holding a Quick Claw, how do you then proceed?  The issue with Quick Claw is the unpredictability of a pokemon holding it + the RNG associated with it.  Even if you do deduce that your opp is holding it, your decisions are not in your control but entirely RNG's control, and that's not competitive at all.  

 

3 hours ago, BaldManGoat said:

The play around factor of a kings rock cloyster is to ohko it before the setup because of its lack of focus sash. Another way is to bring priority of your own because kings rock is nearly useless when forced into an ice shard situation, yes it can flinch with shard too but the odds are very small, and aren't truly effective(unless in a 1v1 at the end of a battle). Sucker punch goes before cloyster every time, but the only true sucker punch user that could beat cloyster is bisharp, and only if rocks are up. Other things like banded technician scizor also 2 ohko after rocks. Things like mach punch conkeldurr can play around them as well. Ideally the goal is to ohko cloyster before the setup to completely render it useless. There is ways to prepare for cloyster outside of tanking it, a well prepared team with 2-3 special attackers shouldn't even have to worry about no sash cloyster being a threat if played correctly(obviously given how the game plays out/team matchups).

Good luck OHKO'ing Cloyster with a defensive team.  You also act like Cloyster doesn't get set up opportunities vs other kinds of teams.  Cloyster has plenty of opportunities to set up against phys attackers -> Scarf TTar / Scizor  locked into Pursuit or BP / Phys Garchomp etc.  I think Bisharp doesn't have much OU usage, and even if it did, Sucker Punch fails vs Cloyster decides to Ice Shard that turn, so it's not guaranteed.  BP Scizor + Mach Conk are really nice, but these are not specific to Kings Rock Cloyster.  If your way of playing around a threat is to ohko it before it has the ability to flinch you, that's not an ideal strategy.  

Link to comment
10 hours ago, BaldManGoat said:

As for quick claw, I have no clue what the argument is for it. "you have no fucking clue if a mon does have it", lets say I bring a specs torkoal into a battle under a trick room and blow up your entire team, is specs unfair because "who would've thought a torkoal would bring specs?" 

You don't understand the key difference between hax items and everything else. Yes, you don't know if enemy Torkoal is specs, scarf, charcoal, leftovers, mail pr even adamantium orb. It doesn't matter. The player who is using the Torkoal knows what its Torkoal can do, and play skillfully with it, gaining advantage for its surprise factor over the enemy. If you slap a goddamn Quick Claw on Torkoal, not even the enemy, not Gods, and hell not even you can predict when the item is going to trigger, therefore there is no possible skill involved in a play around it, from neither of battlers. In other words, a competitive game becames not competitive at all, because no side is able to use their skill to find the most favorable play.

 

As for Crit items. First, unlike Quick Claw and King's rock whose sole purpose is to force uncontrolled rng, Crit items are used to combo with abilities or high crit moves to have  50 or 100% chance to grant the holder a critical hit.

 

Finally, preparing for Scarf Togekiss is possible, since you are allowed, in the teambuilding process, to slap a mon in your team that beats it, like Special defensive Tyranitar or, to the extreme, Special defensive Dragonite, that cannot flinch. Also, scarf Togekiss is easily scoutable within the match, allowing for the enemy to actually play around it in the most optimized way. Now, how do you prepare for stuff like Quick Claw or King's rock? You don't. How do you scout these items within a battle? You dont, unless of course they trigger, which means a) A competitive game was already skewed by uncompetitive mechanics, and b) The scouting itself requires events that happen by 'luck', meaning you can't even scout the item properly without both sides relying on these unwanted events beforehand.

 

I butchered English but whatever.

Edited by pachima
Link to comment

So many things get mixed up here it's ridiculous. You expect Togekiss to flinch. You expect Drapion to crit. What you don't expect is a bulky Pokemon to out of nowhere go first and knock out your Pokemon and completely flip the board position while there was nothing you could have realistically done. Also you don't expect a move with 0% chance to suddenly flinch you. This is why these comparisons between hax items and Pokemon with RNG strategies do not work. The problem with the hax items is that you have really no way to take them into consideration, when building a gameplan for your battle. The hax items reward playing style that has no strategic gameplan behind it, it is just luck-fishing. Each game/sport always wants to reward people for certain virtues and rules are adjusted to reward those virtues, why can't we do the same with competitive Pokemon?

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
Link to comment

So I just played an OU match and...

 

ff1b4057aecfdb5b7b34b318c59df9b5.png

 

This just happened. If my opp would remove hazards (2 layers of spikes and rocks) then he'd have like 100000% chance to win.

 

Why do you guys insist on making this game's competitive experience for us so much shittier?

Link to comment
On 5/14/2021 at 4:14 PM, RysPicz said:

c10f2923dc75288532509ff00fb35d28.png

1b4a6a618667f33cff300dbcf112bb59.png

e4a112ef312bdbbeb9bdac32c3980905.png

 

 

This just happened. All in one battle. Cloyster flinching it's way to victory with a stupid broken ass item.

 

@Kyu Please help, this is really becoming a common situation and does not involve any skill...

the issue there is that you actually wanted to touch a Cloyster that so politely asked you not to.

Link to comment

As a representative of the Tier Council, I wanted to write and explain that banning these items falls out of our jurisdiction. Regardless, we have been in discussion and we unanimously agreed that hax items such as Quick Claw, King's Rock, and others are not inherently broken. With that said though, we further debated whether they should be banned as they add no benefit to competitive play. These items promote "poor" play by encouraging players to rely on RNG, by removing otherwise helpful items for a very small chance of benefit. Furthermore, these items when actually making an effect on a match simply do so by hurting "good" play. Meaning, when these items result in a momentum changing or game-winning play, it is at the loss of the player whom had the advantage. My opinion is that this is not healthy for our metagame. Counter arguments are that these items are unlikely to be used and even more unlikely to have an effect in a game. Usage is incredibly low and better players recognize there are better items to be had, excluding the Skill Link + King's Rock strategy which has picked up.

 

Overall, the TC was split in their vote(5 for and 4 against) when it came to hypothetically banning these items. FYI, we do not disclose individual votes.

Link to comment
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

As a representative of the Tier Council, I wanted to write and explain that banning these items falls out of our jurisdiction. Regardless, we have been in discussion and we unanimously agreed that hax items such as Quick Claw, King's Rock, and others are not inherently broken. With that said though, we further debated whether they should be banned as they add no benefit to competitive play. These items promote "poor" play by encouraging players to rely on RNG, by removing otherwise helpful items for a very small chance of benefit. Furthermore, these items when actually making an effect on a match simply do so by hurting "good" play. Meaning, when these items result in a momentum changing or game-winning play, it is at the loss of the player whom had the advantage. My opinion is that this is not healthy for our metagame. Counter arguments are that these items are unlikely to be used and even more unlikely to have an effect in a game. Usage is incredibly low and better players recognize there are better items to be had, excluding the Skill Link + King's Rock strategy which has picked up.

 

Overall, the TC was split in their vote(5 for and 4 against) when it came to hypothetically banning these items. FYI, we do not disclose individual votes.

So you voted on a potential ban from TC while still having the stance that taking these items out of comp-play isn't your responsibilty? Or was the vote itself about this very point whether this is or is not your responsibility? Just want to be sure I understand where the vote came from.

Edited by CHUCKunso
Link to comment
2 minutes ago, CHUCKunso said:

So you voted on a potential ban from TC while still having the stance that taking these items out of comp-play isn't your responsibilty? Or was the vote itself about this very point whether those are or are not your responsibility? Just want to be sure I understand where the vote came from.

tl;dr We have no power in this. We still voted as a group to see what we as a group would do.

Link to comment
Just now, DoubleJ said:

tl;dr We have no power in this. We still voted as a group to see what we as a group would do.

TC has some 2/3 majority rule or would 5 in favor 4 against already be enough for a ban?

Link to comment
1 minute ago, CHUCKunso said:

TC has some 2/3 majority rule or would 5 in favor 4 against already be enough for a ban?

Most times it's a simple majority, which is why staff opted for a 9-person council. There are rare cases where it needs to be more than that, but I can't think of any recent examples of why we ended up doing that.

 

Feel free to direct any further questions about TC rules and regulations to @Munya or just read the TC thread.

Link to comment

Yes @ simple majority but its something we've talked about changing, as well as activity rules.  Really a revamp of the whole system but its not something I am comfortable doing on my own so its not been done.  We actually have an internal TC thread involving changes that would like to be seen or modified for the revamp though its not been given much love by anybody.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.