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Remove hax items and hax abilities from competitive play.


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  • Lvkee changed the title to Remove hax items and hax abilities from competitive play.

Linking to a previous post I made regarding this:
https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/126555-ban-quick-claw-kings-rock/&do=findComment&comment=1739779

Also an update to the post I made is the following screenshot from the BW OU council:

SZikxw5.jpg

It's nice when decisions that directly affect competitive play are made by competitive players rather than staff who are too stubborn to see the stupidity behind their decision to drop these items back into the game.  It's also nice when Smogon's tiering council jumps in to resolve the issue while MMO's council just silently watches.

 

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Posted (edited)

I did not know this thread existed so I will reference it.

 

Important to note not a single response on this thread linked above from any mod, admin dev etc other than a very safe response avoiding the topic..

 

@Rache

@Munya
@Squirtle

@Kyu

@Desu

@Bearminator

etc.. whoever makes the decision idk (clearly not mods but trying to get an admin to respond is the equivalent of trying to get blood out of a stone)

 

Why do you make changes for the competitive community which are by design uncompetitive then refuse to respond when we question why? What is the choice behind this decision which severely affects the games competitive integrity. All I ask for is a response with even a single reason for why for this was added. And even that will not be done.

Edited by Lvkee
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Let me share my personal input into this controversial topic.

 

First, allow me to separate the mentioned abilities/items into two:

1- Sand Veil /Snow Cloak.

2- King's rock /Quick claw.

 

1) They require specific conditions in the field to trigger (aka weather). They are also shared information both players possess (since its an ability). Therefore, the miss rate provided by these abilities is not much different than, let's say, a miss from Hydro Pump. In which case, it's up to the players to play in the way they maximize their victory chance. In sum, and in my opinion, I can't say that 1) falls within rng or uncompetitive status, because that would mean stuff like Hydro Pump or Focus Blast would be too. What you can argue, however, is that a 20% fixed dodge rate under said conditions is broken, but that's a bit out of topic.

Let's move on.

2) These require no specific conditions in the field to trigger. King's rock relies in outspeeding only, while Quick Claw virtually requires nothing at all. The main problem here is that an opposing player has no way to know whether these items are being used before they actually activate themselves (or via superhypermegaultratopkekuseless gimmicks like frisk). This unfortunately removes all sort of skill put into the match, as there is no realistic way to consider these variables to the most optimal winpath, or in other words, puts the game completely in rng hands, essentially removing the "competitive" aspect of it. 

 

tldr; rng mechanics are always super bad. Rng abilitiescan be arguably labelled in the broken status, while rng items, such as King's rock and Quick claw should be labelled under Uncompetitive status and therefore banned/removed/whatever you want to call it.

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17 minutes ago, noomuch said:

great idea, why don't they also remove damage rolls and status chance from moves.  I want my pvp experience to only deal exact amount and with guaranteed hits

RNG? that doesn't need to exist if its competitive after all

i 100% agree with your comment bro 

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41 minutes ago, noomuch said:

great idea, why don't they also remove damage rolls and status chance from moves.  I want my pvp experience to only deal exact amount and with guaranteed hits

RNG? that doesn't need to exist if its competitive after all

Someone put this man in charge. He found the answers to all of our problems.

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39 minutes ago, noomuch said:

great idea, why don't they also remove damage rolls and status chance from moves.  I want my pvp experience to only deal exact amount and with guaranteed hits

RNG? that doesn't need to exist if its competitive after all

Why do people like you who have absolutely zero clue about PvP feel the need to comment on a PvP-related topic?  

 

Nonetheless, I'll still take the time and effort to entertain your worthless and uninformed opinion because there are a few who would genuinely want to know the answer to this.  We want our pokemon competitive play to be on a level where there is a balance between luck and skill.  There is going to be a conflict there because, in general, competitive play largely relies on skill over luck, yet we competitively play a game that uses a large number of luck-based elements.  To balance out the two, we have clauses in place to minimize the amount of effect luck has on a game.  Since you're absolutely clueless about it, here is a list of clauses in place:

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/

 

The purpose of the clauses is so that people don't rely on luck-based strategies to overcome skill, because that in effect would kill competitive play.  The purpose of the topic is to remove these specific luck-based elements (kings rock etc.) because these completely kill competitive play.  We're not asking to remove crits / damage rolls / status because then we wouldn't really be playing Pokemon.  Not every single thing has to be in the extreme end of a spectrum (one end being 0 RNG and the other end being 0 bans/clauses) because a balance of the two can exist.

Edited by NikhilR
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5 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Why do people like you who have absolutely zero clue about PvP feel the need to comment on a PvP-related topic?  

 

 

I was being sarcastic on my comment, i actually agree with these clauses. seeing king's rock cloyster every time i queue on OU made me change to dubs in the first place.

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Just now, noomuch said:

I was being sarcastic on my comment, i actually agree with these clauses. seeing king's rock cloyster every time i queue on OU made me change to dubs in the first place.

thank you have a nice day. 

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31 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Why do people like you who have absolutely zero clue about PvP feel the need to comment on a PvP-related topic?  

 

Nonetheless, I'll still take the time and effort to entertain your worthless and uninformed opinion because there are a few who would genuinely want to know the answer to this.  We want our pokemon competitive play to be on a level where there is a balance between luck and skill.  There is going to be a conflict there because, in general, competitive play largely relies on skill over luck, yet we competitively play a game that uses a large number of luck-based elements.  To balance out the two, we have clauses in place to minimize the amount of effect luck has on a game.  Since you're absolutely clueless about it, here is a list of clauses in place:

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/

 

The purpose of the clauses is so that people don't rely on luck-based strategies to overcome skill, because that in effect would kill competitive play.  The purpose of the topic is to remove these specific luck-based elements (kings rock etc.) because these completely kill competitive play.  We're not asking to remove crits / damage rolls / status because then we wouldn't really be playing Pokemon.  Not every single thing has to be in the extreme end of a spectrum (one end being 0 RNG and the other end being 0 bans/clauses) because a balance of the two can exist.

b-but gamedesign noob. Not having hax items is bad game design because all other battle items are way overpriced for casual pvp players to experiment with!

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These "hax" items are always a controversial topic, in my honest opinion they are usually worthless. However, they are most definitely not useless as when they do work they will most likely have a huge impact. Sure it sucks having lost to a random mon outspeeding you or getting flinched by a Cloyster but I think it is important to understand there are necessary trades the user must take to use these items. For example, Cloyster (the most prominent user of Kings Rock) will be without a Focus Sash or White Herb, which would make setting up in the first place an issue. 

 

Now do I think these items are fair? Not really but you are more likely to get better use out less luck reliant items. The issue really arises when you have to constantly play against these and eventually succumb to one of these "strategies". These items hold a lot of power in lesser skilled players hands, I believe this is the root of the frustration as  they now have a chance of  beating a skilled player. These items are not consistent at all, you could win many times and never even know your opponent used one of these items. 

 

With that being said I do believe Kings Rock may need some more looking into. The flinch chance is consistent and could be used without setup if need be. 

 

As for the "hax" abilities I'm not really sure why they were reintroduced. Garchomp had Swords Dance removed so those abilities were somehow reintroduced, arguably Garchomp was the greatest abuser of a "hax" ability with Substitute + Swords Dance but it may still be a broken strategy. Just having the ability to dodge anything is insane on a mon like Garchomp, providing free turns to punish the opponent. 

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26 minutes ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

These "hax" items are always a controversial topic, in my honest opinion they are usually worthless. However, they are most definitely not useless as when they do work they will most likely have a huge impact. Sure it sucks having lost to a random mon outspeeding you or getting flinched by a Cloyster but I think it is important to understand there are necessary trades the user must take to use these items. For example, Cloyster (the most prominent user of Kings Rock) will be without a Focus Sash or White Herb, which would make setting up in the first place an issue. 

 

Now do I think these items are fair? Not really but you are more likely to get better use out less luck reliant items. The issue really arises when you have to constantly play against these and eventually succumb to one of these "strategies". These items hold a lot of power in lesser skilled players hands, I believe this is the root of the frustration as  they now have a chance of  beating a skilled player. These items are not consistent at all, you could win many times and never even know your opponent used one of these items. 

 

With that being said I do believe Kings Rock may need some more looking into. The flinch chance is consistent and could be used without setup if need be. 

 

As for the "hax" abilities I'm not really sure why they were reintroduced. Garchomp had Swords Dance removed so those abilities were somehow reintroduced, arguably Garchomp was the greatest abuser of a "hax" ability with Substitute + Swords Dance but it may still be a broken strategy. Just having the ability to dodge anything is insane on a mon like Garchomp, providing free turns to punish the opponent. 

I agree with you on this, I'm not sure why the "hax" abilities was reintroduced either when Swords dance was the problem imo. i guess to take, you got to give a little?
There's really no coming back from the "hax" items either.. whoever's big brain was to bring them back was real clever >.>

As for the kings rock, when it calls a match i can't imagine the anger/tilt people would have from it (not mine, so don't flame me for that) so if anything is possible, do look into it some more, Ban/Nerf whatever you want with King's rock & if possible, ban Quick claw. (Don't really see it that often either, just on the rare occasion but for the sake of our sanity) 
322734180_unknown(1).png.63a5d0a47d1f09a5ff9fac10b09bb2f0.png

Further thinking on it, there's not many options that give a solid answer. 
Reban the Hax items + ability, bringing back Swords dance is going back to square one, While banning the ability to bring back Swords dance pretty sure will be a issue quite quickly in this current meta.
Nerfing the items/ability to only work for so many turns could be a solution, but then it might as well be banned because you won't ever see it used. (which i suppose works out xD) 
there's probably more, but you get the point. 

Either way - I'm with the community here, do something if possible. ^^
 

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1 hour ago, Kupokun said:

I agree with you on this, I'm not sure why the "hax" abilities was reintroduced either when Swords dance was the problem imo. i guess to take, you got to give a little?
There's really no coming back from the "hax" items either.. whoever's big brain was to bring them back was real clever >.>

As for the kings rock, when it calls a match i can't imagine the anger/tilt people would have from it (not mine, so don't flame me for that) so if anything is possible, do look into it some more, Ban/Nerf whatever you want with King's rock & if possible, ban Quick claw. (Don't really see it that often either, just on the rare occasion but for the sake of our sanity) 
322734180_unknown(1).png.63a5d0a47d1f09a5ff9fac10b09bb2f0.png

Further thinking on it, there's not many options that give a solid answer. 
Reban the Hax items + ability, bringing back Swords dance is going back to square one, While banning the ability to bring back Swords dance pretty sure will be a issue quite quickly in this current meta.
Nerfing the items/ability to only work for so many turns could be a solution, but then it might as well be banned because you won't ever see it used. (which i suppose works out xD) 
there's probably more, but you get the point. 

Either way - I'm with the community here, do something if possible. ^^
 

We should all listen to the great Kupokun, after all, he was Past PSL's best underrated player. I think everything this guy says should be taken into account and fully implemented immediately. 

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Copium | Know Your Meme

 

 

Surely admins devs and mods wouldn't ignore a post gaining as much attention as this?! 46 likes in less than 2 days clearly a hot topic?! Right?? They'd defend their controversial decision which almost everyone is against and explain it.. R-right?

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I usually just lurk, but I see no one pointing the possible obvious reasons these abilities/items haven't been banned. As for the abilities sand veil and snow cloak both have easy counters, and you should be well aware of them coming so there really should be no complaints about them, bring a weather setter of your own and problem solved. Things that have easy outplays and are known threats shouldn't be a ban because you can't build around it. 

 

As for quick claw and kings rock, I would much rather face kings rock cloyster than focus sash and even white herb for that matter. The fact that in order to bring a cheesey item like kings rock into play you have to sacrifice the focus sash. A cloyster without focus sash should pose so little of a threat to a player that knows how to play around cloyster that the kings rock they brought instead won't even have a chance to be put into affect. You people act like serene grace air slashes don't exist in the same tier as cloyster, do we have to ban togekiss from PVP because the players are crying about hax? Hax is apart of battling, and something we all should be use to losing against in some games. As for quick claw, I haven't had enough exposure to the item but it goes without saying that leftovers/berries/choice items are way more consistent than quick claw is. People need to sacrifice other better items to use the cheese, and no matter how much it hurts to lose to RNG it shouldn't be banned.

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49 minutes ago, ThinkNicer said:

People that think the items have to be good to be banned are completely missing the point.

I was just pointing out reasons I believe they don't need a ban. I don't consider them to be unhealthy items either. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to be banned. I think they're both funny items you can troll around with for time to time, you can't just push for a ban on items when you dislike playing against them. That's the same thing as saying tbolt should be banned because I got paraed and lost my game. Dark pulse should get banned because I got flinched. I fail to see a true reason for banning or nerfing the items. I also don't think it really takes the "skill" out of it either, to begin with the battling itself hardly takes skill considering the crits and hax that take place in the first place. Correct me if I am wrong, but scope lens isn't banned(to my knowledge) and it also has a similar affect of boosting hax. Banning items because you don't like playing against them is not a good enough reason to convince people to actually ban it. 

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