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Doubles Team Building Frameworks


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Doubles Teambuilding Frameworks Hitmontop artwork by Ken Sugimori

 

Welcome to the new and updated Doubles Teambuilding Frameworks! 

This guide aims to suggest common structures to successful teams.

The teams listed are from recent tournament finals. Please let me know if you want your team removing or adding.

 

- Disclaimer -

As PokeMMO Doubles doesn't have many over-centralising Pokemon, this guide focuses on team archetypes that do have centralising Pokemon at their core, for example weather setters and Trick Room users. Frameworks will tend to over-generalise, so take this guide with a pinch of salt! 

 

Please let me know if you have any suggestions or criticisms! I'd love to know if you have had tournament/ladder success with any of these frameworks!

 

Rain

 

@OrangeManiac - CC #222; Doubles Season #3 Finale - East

Pelipper  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteKingdra  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteJolteon  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteScizor  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteLudicolo  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

@Imabetheverybest1 - Doubles Season #1 Finale - East

Pelipper  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteKingdra  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteJolteon  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMetagross  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteLudicolo  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

@Kamowanthere - Martial Rapidity

Pelipper  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteKingdra  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteManectric  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteScizor  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteGengar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

Corazones - Clash of Supercomputers

Pelipper  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteKingdra  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteJolteon  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteFerrothorn  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteGastrodon  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteGyarados  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

Paramore - CC #235

Pelipper  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteKingdra  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteLudicolo  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMetagross  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHydreigon  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

 

1: Pelipper - Often runs tailwind, in case opposing tailwind users try to remove swift swim boosts. Choice Scarf sets are also quite common.

2: Swift Swim - Kingdra and Ludicolo are the usual suspects. Kingdra is more popular here, as it has a high SpA stat, and access to STAB Draco Meteor 

3: Electric Type/Swift Swim #2 - Electric types deal with opposing Pelipper and flying types like Togekiss, which can otherwise be a real pain for rain teams without a strong electric STAB. Usually runs Thunder.

4: Steel Type - As rain reduces damage done by fire type moves by 50%, steel types are a staple in most rain teams.

5: Rain Abuser / Filler - The next two slots are really up to you. Aim to round out the team against potential weaknesses, such as Trick Room. OrangeManiac uses Ludicolo as a secondary swift swim user, while Corazones uses Gastrodon to abuse its ability Storm Drain, which gives it a +1 SpA boost every time its partner uses Surf.

6: Filler  

 

Sand

 

@HALOTT - CC #237

Tyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteExcadrill  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteSalamence  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteCrobat  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

Fermie - CC #225

Tyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteExcadrill  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteSalamence  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMienshao  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteDusclops  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

@Baneadito - CC #218; Pachanga Said the Changa

Tyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteExcadrill  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteCrobat  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteVolcarona  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

Javierrrrrr - CC #215

Tyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteExcadrill  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteWhimsicott  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteGyarados  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteScizor  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

Queest - Did someone say Party?

Tyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteExcadrill  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteReuniclus  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHariyama  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteDusclops  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteGastrodon  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

 

1: Tyranitar 

2: Excadrill 

3: Speed Control / Ground Immune - Typically, most sand teams tend to run 2-3 ground immune Pokemon, so that Excadrill can freely spam earthquakes. Crobat and Salamence are excellent partners: Crobat can take out many of the common fighting types that threaten both Tyranitar and Excadrill, and Salamence can also provide a Draco Meteor nuke. Fast tailwind users are the go-to choice here due to the gen 8 speed mechanics, so Javierrrrrr uses Whimsicott for priority Tailwind. Notice that Queest uses a full trick room sand team.

4: Fake Out - 4 out of 5 teams listed use fighting type Pokemon with access to moves like fake out and wide guard to support the team. Fake out allows for easier set ups, and wide guard stops oncoming spread moves such as earthquake and surf, which both threaten Tyranitar and Excadrill. Javierrrr breaks this pattern by using Gyarados, who is immune to Earthquake, and can support the team with access to various defensive options, such as taunt, thunder wave and intimidate.

5: Trick Room Check/Mode - As Tyranitar is able to function in and out of Trick Room, 2 out of 4 teams run an optional Trick Room mode. The other 2 teams use Pokemon which can hit common TR setters like Reuniclus for super effective damage, or stop a Trick Room set up with taunt.

6: Filler - Again, use this slot to cover the team's weaknesses. Bulky water types like Rotom-Wash are especially very popular on sand teams, as they offer some resistance to rain teams. Note that all 4 teams have a ground immunity in this slot.

 

Trick Room

 

@OrangeManiac - CC #231; Did someone say Party?

Reuniclus  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHariyama  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteTyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhitePorygon2  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteSalamence  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMetagross  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

@OrangeManiac - CC #222

Reuniclus  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHariyama  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteTyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhitePorygon2  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteSalamence  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteChandelure  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

@jjjjhh - CC #227

Reuniclus  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHariyama  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteTyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteChandelure  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteBlastoise  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteConkeldurr  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

@iamchameleon - CC #228

Reuniclus  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteGigalith  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhitePorygon2  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteTogekiss  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteChandelure  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

 

1: Trick Room Setter - Principally Reuniclus for its commendable power and typing, this first slot should be dedicated to your primary trick room setter. Reuniclus is a great partner for Tyranitar, as it handles the fighting types Tyranitar struggles with

2: Fake Out - This slot is usually occupied by Hariyama, as it also functions well as a trick room sweeper with a powerful STAB in Guts-boosted Close Combat. 

3: Weather Setter - I'm only listing teams with a Sand Stream user here, as SunRoom and RainRoom deserve separate archetypes. Gigalith is an interesting choice on iamchameleon's team. It has a lower speed stat than Tyranitar, but sacrifices Dark type STAB.

4: Secondary Trick Room - Chandelure and Porygon2 are the most popular choices here. Chandelure provides fantastic offense, whilst Porygon2 provides fantastic defense, each with unique support options.

5: Support - OrangeManiac uses Salamence as both a fast mode outside of trick room, and as a way to nuke threats to Trick Room set ups with STAB Dragon Gem Draco Meteor. The other two teams listed utilise redirection support, which benefits the whole team. 

6: Filler - This should round out the team. Tertiary trick room setters are a good option if you want even more solidarity to a full trick room team. 

 

Tailwind

 

MinyHan - Nosy Pig, Best Pig

Crobat  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMienshao  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteSalamence  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteTyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteScizor  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

EYL - Doubles Season #3 Finale - West; ShanQi - Nosy Pig, Best Pig

Crobat  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMienshao  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteSalamence  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteTyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMetagross  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

@iamchameleon - CC #223

Crobat  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteChandelure  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMienshao  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteVanilluxe  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMetagross  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

Fermie - CC #223

Whimsicott  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteChandelure  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteGarchomp  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteTyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMetagross  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

@PoseidonWrath - CC #233

Crobat  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteChandelure  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteGarchomp  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteTyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

 

1: Tailwind Setter - Fast/Priority Tailwind speed boosts apply immediately due to Gen 8 speed mechanics. Crobat is the most common choice here, however, Whimsicott has access to priority Fake Tears, which supports any relevant special attackers on the team

2: Anti-TR Lead - This season has seen the rise of Mienshao+Chandelure leads as a way to counter the common Hariyama+Reuniclus core. As long as it is in play, Imprison Chandelure will stop any Trick Room users from setting up. Chandelure can also hit most of the common Trick Room users for super effective damage, bar Porygon2

3: Anti-TR Lead #2 / Tailwind Sweeper/Setter - Having a powerful fighting STAB as well as access to fake out allows the anti-TR lead to provide an answer to Porygon2, which Chandelure otherwise struggles against. NB - (252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 159-190 (83.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Notice that EYL uses Salamence as a secondary Tailwind Setter. 

4: Weather Setter (Anti-Rain) - Usually Tyranitar, this slot ensures that any Swift Swim bonuses are not granted by winning the weather war. Iamchameleon's team has a unique addition in Vanilluxe, which utilises icy wind to further the team's speed advantage.

5: Filler - Most teams listed use a bulky steel type in slot 5: Metagross deals with Trick Room quite well, and can use Explosion to gain momentum over the opponent. Note that Rotom-W completes a Fire-Water-Grass core in Fermie's Team.

6: Filler

 

RainRoom

 

ALLLZ - Season 2 Finale - West

Pelipper  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteJellicent  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhitePorygon2  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMetagross  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteLudicolo  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

 

LeoTsb - CC #232

Pelipper  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteJellicent  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhitePorygon2  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMetagross  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHitmontop  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteLudicolo  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

 

@Huargensy - CC #229

Pelipper  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteJellicent  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhitePorygon2  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMetagross  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteConkeldurr  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteParasect  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

 

@JhowCrazy - duality of three

Pelipper  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteJellicent  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhitePorygon2  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteBronzong  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteHariyama  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteAbomasnow  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

 

1: Pelipper - Rain Setter. At 65 speed, it is slow enough to run a Trick Room set. Interestingly, a 0- Spe Pelipper will underspeed a 0- Spe Tyranitar in Trick Room, meaning that it will win the weather war on switch in if Trick Room is set up.

2: Jellicent - Jellicent is the only real reason to run a RainRoom team (no alliteration intended XD). With access to Water Spout, it becomes a powerful offensive threat under Trick Room conditions. It can also be used as a Trick Room setter, with fake out immunity and some item flexibility if a Mental Herb is on the cards. Generally, gem-boosted Water Spout is the best way to go. 

3: TR Setter - Porygon2 is the TR setter of choice here. It has great type synergy with Jellicent, as normal/ghost types cancel out each other's weaknesses (bar dark/electric/grass). It has a fantastic movepool (as Porygon is a Gen 1 pokemon), with both offensive and supportive options, as well as incredible bulk.

4: Bulky Steel Type - Metagross is the usual suspect here. Being able to use explosion next to Jellicent with impunity is a fantastic way to set up Trick Room offensively, clearing out any unsuspecting targets. It also handles the fighting types that Porygon2 is weak to. Bronzong is an interesting choice on jhowteon's team, with access to explosion, as well as a vast support movepool, including Trick Room, Ally Switch and Rain Dance to name a few.

5: Fighting Type/Fake Out - There is a surprising amount of continuity in all 4 teams listed as to the next two slots (so far!). All teams employ either fake out or redirection support, and provide fighting/grass type coverage to handle the various Tyranitars and bulky waters that pose a threat to a Jellicent sweep. Hariyama and Conkeldurr are welcome additions to any Trick Room team, providing a guts-boosted close combat for a nuke under Trick Room. Hitmontop is used on LeoTsb/ALLLZ's teams, as it is able to function inside and outside of Trick Room, given that Ludicolo is used for a "fast-mode." 

6: Grass Type - Lots of variety here. Ludicolo has access to fake out and swift swim, so it provides a fast mode if the opposing team has good trick room counters. Parasect is an ingenious option on @Huargensy's team, with access to rage powder and dry skin to facilitate a Jellicent sweep. Lastly, Abomasnow on jhowteon's team was probably used as a way to counter @Imabetheverybest1's Garchomp/Rotom-W/Gastrodon core, so it's a specific counter-pick, and shouldn't be considered as a general option.

 

Sample Teams

 

The following teams have been created by using the above frameworks. Please feel free to contribute!

 

Tailwind [Importable]

Crobat  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteMienshao  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteSalamence  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteTyranitar  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteScizor  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & WhiteRotom  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White

 

And that's it so far! Please let me know what you think!

 

Future frameworks:

 

SunRoom

Edited by Rakhmaninov
Sample Teams
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RainRoom looks pretty sick, pretty interesting that RainRoom teams without a Swift Swim mode have done so well. I always considered the strength of RainRoom to be diverse speed options - can win the game either with Swift Swim boosts or in Trick Room. Surprised only 2/4 had a Ludicolo.

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Update - Added Sample Teams section

 

2 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

RainRoom looks pretty sick, pretty interesting that RainRoom teams without a Swift Swim mode have done so well. I always considered the strength of RainRoom to be diverse speed options - can win the game either with Swift Swim boosts or in Trick Room. Surprised only 2/4 had a Ludicolo.

Agreed!

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One archetype I would consider adding is the so-called "Goodstuffs" team or you can also call them "Counterbox" team. They are teams with no clear pre-determined strategy or theme behind it but rather they are reactive to most common metateams. An example of this I've seen recently is JosueFeng's Doubles team: Arcanine, Gastrodon, Togekiss, Garchomp, Gigalith, Rotom-M. At first look it doesn't have the same kind of hard speed control or a specific theme behind it, but those mons actually pressure many of the common metacores quite nicely. It would be annoying to play rain/sand/trick room against those Pokemon which are the most common Dubs metateams at the moment. So despite not falling to common guidelines, it's a very solid team. Obviously, doing similar role breakdown about those teams is impossible so I guess in that sense they don't fit this guide because you would need to analyze those teams all differently. But maybe just having a collection of generally accepted goodstuffs teams could be an idea to show that you can create good teams despite not falling any of these previously mentioned categories.

 

I've seen some other players build similar teams, such as Chjul or RDL I might check some replays for more examples.

Link to comment
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

One archetype I would consider adding is the so-called "Goodstuffs" team or you can also call them "Counterbox" team. They are teams with no clear pre-determined strategy or theme behind it but rather they are reactive to most common metateams. An example of this I've seen recently is JosueFeng's Doubles team: Arcanine, Gastrodon, Togekiss, Garchomp, Gigalith, Rotom-M. At first look it doesn't have the same kind of hard speed control or a specific theme behind it, but those mons actually pressure many of the common metacores quite nicely. It would be annoying to play rain/sand/trick room against those Pokemon which are the most common Dubs metateams at the moment. So despite not falling to common guidelines, it's a very solid team. Obviously, doing similar role breakdown about those teams is impossible so I guess in that sense they don't fit this guide because you would need to analyze those teams all differently. But maybe just having a collection of generally accepted goodstuffs teams could be an idea to show that you can create good teams despite not falling any of these previously mentioned categories.

 

I've seen some other players build similar teams, such as Chjul or RDL I might check some replays for more examples.

I was thinking similarly, but I'm not sure how that would fit into a frameworks article. "Goodstuff" teams may even require their own separate article! As far as I am aware, @JosueFeng has been running that same team for a while, at least since when Garchomp had Swords Dance, so he has had a lot of experience with it! It would be nice to hear his insights on it.

 

In fact, JosueFeng's team corresponds nearly exactly to the Garchomp archetype in my previous article, so I assume it's built around a hone claws set up now that Swords Dance is no longer available, is this correct?

 

 

 

I'll have a think what features a team needs, and perhaps include a "general checklist" section. See this guide for what I mean:

 

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-teambuilding-frameworks.3571514/

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on what the general requirements are for PokeMMO doubles! :)

Edited by Rakhmaninov
Link to comment
On 4/18/2021 at 4:27 AM, Rakhmaninov said:

I was thinking similarly, but I'm not sure how that would fit into a frameworks article. "Goodstuff" teams may even require their own separate article! As far as I am aware, @JosueFeng has been running that same team for a while, at least since when Garchomp had Swords Dance, so he has had a lot of experience with it! It would be nice to hear his insights on it.

That's right, my team is a "goodstuff" I try to counter all strategies and strong pokemon without using them. I use the same team since Garchomp came out and it always has rock slide instead of SwD or HoC, because I need another check for volca booster in case gigalith dies. And it is infeasible to build a framework about "goodstuff" because they can take different forms.

Thanks for credits.

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5 hours ago, JosueFeng said:

That's right, my team is a "goodstuff" I try to counter all strategies and strong pokemon without using them. I use the same team since Garchomp came out and it always has rock slide instead of SwD or HoC, because I need another check for volca booster in case gigalith dies. And it is infeasible to build a framework about "goodstuff" because they can take different forms.

Thanks for credits.

Brilliant, thanks for your feedback!

 

I agree that "goodstuff" shouldn't have its own framework.

It may even be worth considering writing a separate "goodstuff" article (or subsection within this article), like this one for VGC 2012: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vgc-2012-goodstuffs-article.3462191/

Link to comment
8 hours ago, astarmentor said:

Okay. Thanks. Here it goes:

https://pokepast.es/952aa8a2c2341794

I've experienced a bunch with mixed d-nite, Scizor, Garchomp, and hitmontop. I am familiar with the other builds but I don't want to simply copy them.

I think the team is generally quite solid, but will need a few tweaks!

  • Close Combat>High Jump Kick on Mienshao. Since most doubles mons have protect, you will likely end up using half of your health every time the opponent blocks your attack.
  • Tailwind>Wide Guard on Pelipper. If your team needs tailwind support for max efficiency, it's better to have 2 setters than 1. 
  • Consider your Trick Room matchup. None of the pokemon on your team can OHKO or taunt reuniclus, one of the most common TR setters. Perhaps change Scizor for Metagross* and give Whimsicott Taunt instead of Helping Hand
  • Try some more move options on Kingdra, like Draco Meteor>Dragon Pulse, and muddy water (which bypasses storm drain) over scald. Hurricane is also nice for dealing with opposing rain teams with Ludicolo, which checks gastrodon
  • Focus Sash>Leftovers on Whimsicott - it's very frail!
  • *Metagross is your only crobat check. If you do end up switching it for scizor, you'll need to consider this.
  • Your team will struggle against togekiss/blastoise set up teams, as you have no way of stopping follow me, or dealing significant damage to either of them. This is why an electric type is very useful on a rain team, such as modest Electric Gem Jolteon, or a Rotom form.

Look at the structure of teams such as @Lactosoid's Rain team of Pelipper/Ludicolo/Rotom-W/Metagross/Mienshao/Chandelure for inspiration.

 

I hope this helps!

 

 

Link to comment
10 hours ago, Rakhmaninov said:

I think the team is generally quite solid, but will need a few tweaks!

  • Close Combat>High Jump Kick on Mienshao. Since most doubles mons have protect, you will likely end up using half of your health every time the opponent blocks your attack.
  • Tailwind>Wide Guard on Pelipper. If your team needs tailwind support for max efficiency, it's better to have 2 setters than 1. 
  • Consider your Trick Room matchup. None of the pokemon on your team can OHKO or taunt reuniclus, one of the most common TR setters. Perhaps change Scizor for Metagross* and give Whimsicott Taunt instead of Helping Hand
  • Try some more move options on Kingdra, like Draco Meteor>Dragon Pulse, and muddy water (which bypasses storm drain) over scald. Hurricane is also nice for dealing with opposing rain teams with Ludicolo, which checks gastrodon
  • Focus Sash>Leftovers on Whimsicott - it's very frail!
  • *Metagross is your only crobat check. If you do end up switching it for scizor, you'll need to consider this.
  • Your team will struggle against togekiss/blastoise set up teams, as you have no way of stopping follow me, or dealing significant damage to either of them. This is why an electric type is very useful on a rain team, such as modest Electric Gem Jolteon, or a Rotom form.

Look at the structure of teams such as @Lactosoid's Rain team of Pelipper/Ludicolo/Rotom-W/Metagross/Mienshao/Chandelure for inspiration.

 

I hope this helps!

 

 

Thanks :) I'll give it a try. 

* HJK over CC was just to pick random KOs on pory2. I was on one point considering playing stone edge over rock slide too to pick up salamences. I was quite content with the 1v1 trade off. Mienshao's set is the most challenging to me as it learns so many things. I was also considering wideguard and  detect for my kid. 

* Instead of TW on peli, can it be icy wind for more coverage? 

*Ye. my only check to crobat+mienshao leads is meta + whim, or meta + kingdra. Other than that I wasn't having too much trouble against TR. I didn't consider encore + taunt on whim. I want also to fit in protect lol. 

*on the kingdra set - ye, I'll put Draco to improve my mienshao + Crobat match up. But I don't like the fact that I cannot spam the move. the hurricane tech is quite important lol. again, the same problem as with whim. Too many moves to fit in. So I'll try - Draco, muddy, hurri, protect. 

*and finally. yes. against the classic H.O. I have to play like a god haha.  modest jolteon :o. With the Scizor + jolteon consideration the team will morph some sort of orange's team. hahah. 

*regardless of everything I have to breed a ludi. 

 

Thanks for the feedback rakh! 

Link to comment
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, astarmentor said:

Thanks :) I'll give it a try. 

* HJK over CC was just to pick random KOs on pory2. I was on one point considering playing stone edge over rock slide too to pick up salamences. I was quite content with the 1v1 trade off. Mienshao's set is the most challenging to me as it learns so many things. I was also considering wideguard and  detect for my kid. 

* Instead of TW on peli, can it be icy wind for more coverage? 

*Ye. my only check to crobat+mienshao leads is meta + whim, or meta + kingdra. Other than that I wasn't having too much trouble against TR. I didn't consider encore + taunt on whim. I want also to fit in protect lol. 

*on the kingdra set - ye, I'll put Draco to improve my mienshao + Crobat match up. But I don't like the fact that I cannot spam the move. the hurricane tech is quite important lol. again, the same problem as with whim. Too many moves to fit in. So I'll try - Draco, muddy, hurri, protect. 

*and finally. yes. against the classic H.O. I have to play like a god haha.  modest jolteon :o. With the Scizor + jolteon consideration the team will morph some sort of orange's team. hahah. 

*regardless of everything I have to breed a ludi. 

 

Thanks for the feedback rakh! 

No problem at all, here to help <3

Just a few more pointers:

  • Have you considered fighting gem mienshao? With Close Combat that would be more consistent against P2!
  • Icy Wind is probably better off on a Choice Scarf Pelipper set, as you get to provide immediate speed control for a slower partner (scarf pelipper outspeeds base 120s). Overall, tailwind with Sash is more consistent - here's a scenario: pelipper+kingdra vs pelipper+kingdra. You icy wind and protect with kingdra; the opponent protects their kingdra and uses tailwind with pelipper. Icy Wind also has a chance to miss too, and only reduces speed by one stage, rather than two.

As a side note because we mentioned electric types, I wonder about the viability of Rotom-Mow on rain teams, as most rain teams tend to require electric and grass coverage for gastrodon/rotom/crobat/togekiss/blastoise... Worth a try!

Maybe something like this... https://pokepast.es/cfc8c2aa0473238b

Edited by Rakhmaninov
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7 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said:

No problem at all, here to help <3

Just a few more pointers:

  • Have you considered fighting gem mienshao? With Close Combat that would be more consistent against P2!
  • Icy Wind is probably better off on a Choice Scarf Pelipper set, as you get to provide immediate speed control for a slower partner (scarf pelipper outspeeds base 120s). Overall, tailwind with Sash is more consistent - here's a scenario: pelipper+kingdra vs pelipper+kingdra. You icy wind and protect with kingdra; the opponent protects their kingdra and uses tailwind with pelipper. Icy Wind also has a chance to miss too, and only reduces speed by one stage, rather than two.

As a side note because we mentioned electric types, I wonder about the viability of Rotom-Mow on rain teams, as most rain teams tend to require electric and grass coverage for gastrodon/rotom/crobat/togekiss/blastoise... Worth a try!

Maybe something like this... https://pokepast.es/cfc8c2aa0473238b

Too much sauce. I'll get back to you asp. Again, thanks. Didn't consider tailoring kingdra's speed as it revenge kills opposing kingdras and so on lol. I have everything on that poke paste. I'll give it a spin. 

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