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January-Movement Discussion Thread


Munya

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2 minutes ago, NOREButler said:

Theres way better mons/strats dugtrio can enable, its not like Queen was the only reason nobody uses Manectric.

It is the main counter of manectric, is what I mean, and it became very used in this month, about 16%

Edited by xMago
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1 minute ago, Munya said:

Sir do you have a problem

No offense, but if you dont know why Blaziken suddenly spikes after getting U-Turn (!!!) over BP and CC over Superpower while sitting at a decent speed tier for a scarfed mon i dont know why you´re actively involved in tiering. Whats the purpose of selected comp players forming a tier council when they cant even do their job. Could just put a bunch of randoms in and ignore their input. Only difference would be that they´re incapable of cleaning up the mess afterwards. 

 

I know its a dead horse tho, so ill just go my way and hatch Charmanders..

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22 minutes ago, NOREButler said:

No offense, but if you dont know why Blaziken suddenly spikes after getting U-Turn (!!!) over BP and CC over Superpower while sitting at a decent speed tier for a scarfed mon i dont know why you´re actively involved in tiering. Whats the purpose of selected comp players forming a tier council when they cant even do their job. Could just put a bunch of randoms in and ignore their input. Only difference would be that they´re incapable of cleaning up the mess afterwards. 

 

I know its a dead horse tho, so ill just go my way and hatch Charmanders..

Actually forgot that we added in the new moves, that said I don't influence(or very very very rarely do in the event of a stalemate) tier decisions, I read arguments, ask questions, and present various forms of data based off of usage if requested.  You seem very, very misinformed.

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6 minutes ago, Munya said:

Actually forgot that we added in the new moves, that said I don't influence(or very very very rarely do in the event of a stalemate) tier decisions, I read arguments, ask questions, and present various forms of data based off of usage if requested.  You seem very, very misinformed.

How about allowing people to join tc discord and giving them "read only" - rights?

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7 minutes ago, NOREButler said:

How about allowing people to join tc discord and giving them "read only" - rights?

I did hint to something like this in the TC post I made but nothing has really been done with it yet.

 

Edit: some tc members are active in the viability rank discord tho 

Edited by ThinkNicer
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2 hours ago, NOREButler said:

No offense, but if you dont know why Blaziken suddenly spikes after getting U-Turn (!!!) over BP and CC over Superpower while sitting at a decent speed tier for a scarfed mon i dont know why you´re actively involved in tiering. Whats the purpose of selected comp players forming a tier council when they cant even do their job. Could just put a bunch of randoms in and ignore their input. Only difference would be that they´re incapable of cleaning up the mess afterwards. 

 

I know its a dead horse tho, so ill just go my way and hatch Charmanders..

Smh Butler...That's not what Munya said. He said: "Blaziken also made a sharp rise in the last 2 months, I don't know what that is indicative of though"

Munya is not questioning "why" blaziken had a sharp rise, he's questioning what that rise means for the NU meta. There is nothing wrong with bringing that up when talking about Dugtrio arrival in NU. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, gbwead said:

Smh Butler...That's not what Munya said. He said: "Blaziken also made a sharp rise in the last 2 months, I don't know what that is indicative of though"

Munya is not questioning "why" blaziken had a sharp rise, he's questioning what that rise means for the NU meta. There is nothing wrong with bringing that up when talking about Dugtrio arrival in NU. 

Taking his answer into account he probably meant what i thought he meant, otherwise he would have just said what you said now. Why it rose in usage also is directly connected to what it means for the NU meta: (it indicates that) keeping momentum with u-turn while forcing very linear switches it chips, which it couldnt do before,  because it only had baton pass and getting a second high bp stab move, which unlike the old option (sp) is rather spammable, in conjunction with a base 120 base attack, is pretty difficult for the current NU meta to handle. 

 

Ofc you can go further into specifics (timid Omastar > ; scarfers starting at 81+ speed to handle Blaze), but that doesnt mean what i said didnt answer his question/statement. And i didnt say theres anything wrong with bringing it up, its just odd that someone in his position doesnt know what a sudden usage spike might indicate.

 


Speaking of what Blaze and Duggy being in the same tier means:
Dugtrio can revenge kill Blaziken if scarfed/intact sash, but i think that we can agree on that not making Dugtrio a good drop all of a sudden, because it doesnt just stop at revenge killing Blaziken. What does Duggy trap for Blaze: Nidoqueen, since bold helmet was a decent way to punish anything Blaze has, Stunfisk, Rhydon, faster scarfers, probably plenty of other stuff, but cant log to browse dex rn. We have bulky mons left that "check" Blaziken, but those are immediately threatened out, just like Slowbro was. I dont intend to turn this into a Blaziken discussion; i think ive stated my opinion about Blaze by expressing my hopes of UU people using it. Blaziken isnt the only reason Dugtrio going NU is just a terrible idea tho and id really appreciate if we could get an insight on why Dugtrio is gonna drop. Last time we saw a drop to "just test and see how it goes" was Rose and it stayed NU for months, altough it never should have gotten there in the first place.

 

Edited by NOREButler
redundant derp
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8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

What I would like to know is how is Dugtrio worst in NU compared to UU and OU. OU and UU had to deal with Dugtrio for years/months and they adapted to the point where Dugtrio got less and less played. Why would it be any different in NU?

If you explained how the tiers adapted to Dugtrio this might be easier to answer, because just looking at the tiers via dex filter, i dont see how the tiers needed to adapt to it. Could look up usage and check if it ever even had any usage demanding adaption in OU and UU, or if its just never been that great in these two tiers.

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52 minutes ago, NOREButler said:

If you explained how the tiers adapted to Dugtrio this might be easier to answer, because just looking at the tiers via dex filter, i dont see how the tiers needed to adapt to it. Could look up usage and check if it ever even had any usage demanding adaption in OU and UU, or if its just never been that great in these two tiers.

Dugtrio was dropped in UU in July 2020. Back then UU was quite different and UU did change. I'm not saying Dugtrio is the reason UU changed, but there is still a notable change from July to December and it's not surprising Dugtrio dropped. 

 

Prior to Dugtrio's introduction in UU, this is the usage of all the UU mons weak to ground:

Lanturn 24,44%
Arcanine 21,15%
Metagross 11,30%
Torkoal 9,46%
Empoleon 7,77%
Electrode 7,53%
Typhlosion 7,53%
Bisharp 7,05%
Rhyperior 4,57%

 

If you do the same thing now, this is the usage of all UU mons weak to ground:

 

Arcanine 19,95%
Metagross 14,18%
Lanturn 13,61%
Torkoal 10,97%
Bisharp 9,85%
Empoleon 9,19%
Rhyperior 7,32%
Typhlosion 4,97%
Gigalith 4,87%

 

Dugtrio is obviously used for more than trapping mons weak to ground and Dugtrio is not the only pokemon responsible for these changes, but for what it is worth we can see two things when comparing these two usage tables: 

 

i) Prior to Dugtrio's introduction in UU, there was more mons weak to ground moves than now

ii) Prior to Dugtrio's introduction in UU, the ground weaknesses that were played were more helpless against Dugtrio when trapped. Lanturn's, Electrode's and Typhlosion's drops in usage is not very surprising when considering Dugtrio in teambuilding, even though Dugtrio itself is not the only reason why these mons dropped in usage. The most common UU mons weak to ground are today more bulky or have some kind of priority to deal with Dugtrio.

 

The UU metagame did change (maybe in response to Dugtrio's presence or other factors) and Dugtrio is simply not as effective as it used to be.

All I am saying is that if Dugtrio looks scary in NU at first, it's normal, but until we see it in action there's is no way it can be banned. Dugtrio being inherently uncompetitive is always annoying and that's true for OU, UU and NU. In OU and UU, it never went above 10% usage iirc, so as awful as Dugtrio might have been, it never reached a point where it was ruining OU or UU. That may be different for NU, but we won't know until it is tested.

And for the trolls trying to apply my previous comments to Lucario and Haxorus, these mons were never present in three different tiers, so there is no historical precedent to determine they will be fine in NU since they were not even fine in UU. Dugtrio already proved it is not always as big of a threat as it may appear to be, unlike Lucario and Haxorus that never proved otherwise.

 

 

 

Edited by gbwead
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13 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Arcanine 21,15% Metagross 11,30%

 

13 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Empoleon 7,77%

 

13 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Bisharp 7,05%

all those mons got prio moves that have a chance to ohko so you cant rk/trap save those mons with it 
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 190-225 (90 - 106.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 191-225 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 253-298 (119.9 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 188-224 (89 - 106.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (sd set is used )

 

Edited by Quinn010
i use lvl 100 calc but you understand the calcs
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Come on now gbwead. If this was true, then you wouldn't be against diglett in LC, that as a matter of fact, traps less things than dugtrio does in NU. That comparison also doesn't make sense, first because NU has more trappable mons than those, and second because most of those aren't even viably trapped, mostly because ark9, empoleon, bisharp and metagross have strong priority vs it, and rhyperior doesn't really die even against banded EQ. In NU, however, priority moves in the mons dugtrio can trap are much rarer(or weaker), and ignoring choice scarf users, Dugtrio effortlessly traps a lot of stuff, without risk of not ohkoing or risk of getting prioritized to death.

 - Also regarding Dugtrio: We decided we could quick ban the pokemon, if it becomes problematic after being tested. It is not, imo, the ideal decision (I believe it is simply too powerful for NU to stay), but honestly I can get behind it as well.

 - What I mean is: If Dugtrio becomes problematic (Which, imo, it is), simply link or point us towards the games in where it was so. Not only that's constructive food for thoughts in our discussions, but it also helps convincing those that are not yet fully certain the Pokemon should be banned(or not).

 - Regarding Electrode, I have mixed feelings. We all know how dominant brainless strats within the MMO community are, and we all know Electrode fulfills those specially well. However, NU has much weaker set up compared to UU. NU also has crit mons and plenty of viable phazers. While I don't think that's enough to justify it staying in the tier, I'm saying it may or may not contribute to its overall viability, and that we need to test it before a proper and final decision involving it. Also opposed to Dugtrio, which is super straight forwards with its "Hello, haha you trapped, bye!" mindset, Electrode is a mon that isn't good by itself, but rather supports others. This is, ofc, fully dependent on its tier, and just adds layers of complexity that we cannot really foresee exactly and successfully without testing. 

 - Regarding Machamp, I believe it is too similar to what Hariyama can achieve, in the guts set, and its only standout trait is being able to spam dynamic punches without accuracy checks. However, that set is blocked by some common pokemons, as a prime example Spiritomb, and as I said Guts is way too similar to Hariyama to become problematic on its own. 

 - Regarding Victreebel, it sucks.

Edited by pachima
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