January-Movement Discussion Thread

[gbwead]

34 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

 

 

 

all those mons got prio moves that have a chance to ohko so you cant rk/trap save those mons with it 
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 190-225 (90 - 106.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 191-225 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 253-298 (119.9 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 188-224 (89 - 106.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (sd set is used )
 

Ya, that's my point. Out of today's UU mons weak to ground, we got more mons with priority moves that can deal with Sash Dugtrio.

[Quinn010]

6 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Ya, that's my point. Out of today's UU mons weak to ground, we got more mons with priority moves that can deal with Sash Dugtrio.

before dug was uu you also used this moves (not empo ada)

[gbwead]

Just now, Quinn010 said:

before dug was uu you also used this moves (not empo ada)

ya, but out of the mons weak to ground in UU, the users of these moves were less common

[Sebat]

Up to UU from NU:
Slowbro - 4.53% usage in UU

Down to NU from UU:

Electrode - 4.21% usage in UU
Machamp - 3.66% usage in UU
Dugtrio - 3.16% usage in UU

 

[VHisc]

Well,  i think Dugtrio will become a very annoying Pokemon in NU. Please dont let him down.

[bingonb]

Please qiuck ban dugtrio, because the season competition will start. Please stabilize the tier as soon as possible.

[NOREButler]

15 hours ago, gbwead said:

All I am saying is that if Dugtrio looks scary in NU at first, it's normal, but until we see it in action there's is no way it can be banned. Dugtrio being inherently uncompetitive is always annoying and that's true for OU, UU and NU. In OU and UU, it never went above 10% usage iirc, so as awful as Dugtrio might have been, it never reached a point where it was ruining OU or UU. That may be different for NU, but we won't know until it is tested.

Duggy sure influenced the UU meta, but as Quinn stated the mons that are in tier were able to handle Dugtrio pretty well naturally and the mons that didnt are Lanturn and Torkoal, so it never had a decent standing to begin with and looking at Dugtrios usage it probably isnt worth slotting it to try to trap Lanturn and Torkoal. I dont play UU tho, so the further we get into this the more id have to guess, which is just meh.

I have to admit that i thought it still sat at 100 base attack and (cb) 80 base doesnt nuke the defensive meta, but as a matter of fact, the mons that you probably aim to trap dont have priority apart from maybe Blaziken and mons have lower base stats than in other tiers by nature. Doing some calcs on frailer stuff i see it also traps a lot of annoying shit after some prior damage, like Drapion, Doom, Blaziken, Espeon, Omastar, so the more i think about it the more i like the idea of giving it a shot, guessing that it could ease role compression pressure supporting more balanced builds.

 

What i think most people are afraid of, or at least i am, is that if it ends up being terribly misplaced in NU, its gonna take ages for it to be put to BL. But yeah, taking more time i like the idea of testing it, despite its ability being the dumbest uncompetitive shit there is - or because it is?

 

[Umbramol]

10 hours ago, NOREButler said:

Duggy sure influenced the UU meta, but as Quinn stated the mons that are in tier were able to handle Dugtrio pretty well naturally and the mons that didnt are Lanturn and Torkoal, so it never had a decent standing to begin with and looking at Dugtrios usage it probably isnt worth slotting it to try to trap Lanturn and Torkoal. I dont play UU tho, so the further we get into this the more id have to guess, which is just meh.

I have to admit that i thought it still sat at 100 base attack and (cb) 80 base doesnt nuke the defensive meta, but as a matter of fact, the mons that you probably aim to trap dont have priority apart from maybe Blaziken and mons have lower base stats than in other tiers by nature. Doing some calcs on frailer stuff i see it also traps a lot of annoying shit after some prior damage, like Drapion, Doom, Blaziken, Espeon, Omastar, so the more i think about it the more i like the idea of giving it a shot, guessing that it could ease role compression pressure supporting more balanced builds.

 

What i think most people are afraid of, or at least i am, is that if it ends up being terribly misplaced in NU, its gonna take ages for it to be put to BL. But yeah, taking more time i like the idea of testing it, despite its ability being the dumbest uncompetitive shit there is - or because it is?

 

It did NOT influence the uu meta. It dropped down because uu could handle it since uu already had started shifting to strong priority due to offense being dominant and priority was a better way dealing with sweepers than walls. Lanturn and torkoal dropped for that reason aswell.. Because they were getting abused by the same meta.. NU doesnt have strong pokemons with strong priority to deal with getting trapped from dugtrio. I would agree that testing is needed but pokemmo competitive scene is known to adapt real slow to new stuff( see k9, metagross, empoleon go up in usage after some time) and for that reason i believe that we are gonna get the wrong feedback about it. 

[GasaiYunoSan]

Absol say hello.

[Kupokun]

NU just went walled cancer to straight up doomed. 

Should be interesting to see how that unfolds.

[Inbetween]

Actually I think I'm missing something here.
Rotom Heat seats at 41,41% usage right now in UU. It's also undoubtedly out of position, even after Metagross dropping in UU.

Are we really gonna pretend Rotom Heat still needs to be in UU? It sucks, really.

EDIT: just to mention that Rotom Heat is at 41%, while Krookodile, the second most used UU pokemon, is at 23%. I guess something is quite off.

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Inbetween
20% usage stats diff

[Quinn010]

48 minutes ago, Inbetween said:

Actually I think I'm missing something here.
Rotom Heat seats at 41,41% usage right now in UU. It's also undoubtedly out of position, even after Metagross dropping in UU.

Are we really gonna pretend Rotom Heat still needs to be in UU? It sucks, really.

EDIT: just to mention that Rotom Heat is at 41%, while Krookodile, the second most used UU pokemon, is at 23%. I guess something is quite off.

 

i suggest you to read this 

[Inbetween]

47 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

i suggest you to read this 

Sadly, this doesn't answer my question.

Rotom Heat sits at 41,41% and has an unfair type advantage against a lot of UU. His true counters are basically Lanturn and Slowbro only (kind of).

This is something which should be thought better. If a Pokemon is 41% usage and the second most used Pokemon is at 23%, something's off. Definitely not "UNDER" used anymore.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Inbetween

[Zymogen]

18 minutes ago, Inbetween said:

Sadly, this doesn't answer my question.

Rotom Heat sits at 41,41% and has an unfair type advantage against a lot of UU. His true counters are basically Lanturn and Slowbro only (kind of).

This is something which should be thought better. If a Pokemon is 41% usage and the second most used Pokemon is at 23%, something's off.

Lanturn, Snorlax, Flygon, opposing Rotom-H, Druddigon, Sp.Def Jellicent and Porygon2 are all very viable Pokemon in the UU meta which all comfortably check Rotom-H. It's true that you should always factor in an answer to Rotom-H when teambuilding, and it's probably is the most useful Pokemon in the tier, but that doesn't mean it's overpowered. Its weakness to Stealth Rocks, lack of reliable recovery, and Overheat being its main offensive STAB move are all aspects that hinder it significantly. 

 

The reason it's used so much is just because of how useful it is in the tier - it defensively covers a lot of offensive threats, and offers great teambuilding synergy with its typing and ability. There are lots of ways to deal with Rotom, you just need to make use of them.

 

Edit: In response to your edit about it "not being under used" - it is under used because it doesn't meet the usage threshold in OU for it to be moved up. Its usage within UU itself has no bearing on that. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Zymogen

[pachima]

@Inbetween Let me try to explain how usage works:

A Pokemon is UU when it falls below a certain threshold in OU. By the same logic, A Pokemon drops to NU when it falls below a certain threshold in UU. Now it doesn't matter if a Pokemon has 10,20,30 or 100% in UU. For as long as that same Pokemon has not reached that threshold in OU, it still is considered, by definition, UU. Ofc you can argue that a Pokemon that would have 100% in UU is too broken for the tier. And yes I agree, but so far the general consensus is that although Rotom-H has 41% in UU: 
1- By definition is still UU, cause it has low usage in OU
2- Rotom-H itself just doesn't fit any banworthy criteria, not even remotely, to justify it being banned to OU.

Because 1 and 2, Rotom is UU and should most likely stay there.

I hope I explained it decently enough.

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by pachima
missing word

[DoubleJ]

How are we feeling about Dugtrio in NU now?

[LifeStyleNORE]

Cancer, same for Electrode. 

[TohnR]

First about Electrode,

 

I feel like screens team would be much less of a problem without Dugtrio. As a proof of this, Dug is in 42% of the teams where Electrode is used and acts to setup hazard and remove the offensive pressure you try to put on the opposing team to not give free setup.
A good example of that is Drapion which is used to crit through electrode teams but can’t do the work as long as Dugtrio exists.

 

I’d say the main weakness of Electrode + Dug is some leads get some really good advantage against them, most notably Piloswine, Seismitoad, Abomasnow etc

 

 

 

Now about Dugtrio (TLDR; begone pls),

 

An abuse I see being commonly used is Dug + Mantine that works insanely well as it negates the impact of many mons such as Magmortar (Tbolt), Blaziken (Tpunch), Electivire … who can't afford to ever use an electric move with the risk of giving a free Dug in and being sure of dying without being able to do anything about it. They actually can’t come to the field ever or they’ll end up trapped after a sac and you’ll be unable to pass Mantine anymore, that also works for rock mons that can all be trapped by Dugtrio (even scarf jolly Rampardos lol, cause Dug too fast) at the exception of Aerodactyle (which isn’t used as a wallbreaker lately).

 

That’s for the uncompetitive aspect we all know, Dug make bad teams to be absurdly strong because it creates situations where there is no outplay possible where it should be.

The thing is, Dug isn't only uncompetitive, like, his ability also was competitive in UU and OU but it was somewhat manageable (I really think Dug is like B/B- tier in UU viability).

The problem in NU is that Dug is OVERWHELMING.

 

It's not only about his synergies like stated previously but also about its raw power as the best Revenge Killer the tier has ever known since I joined the game.

 

Dug safely eliminate a large portion of what it outspeeds on a choice band set. Let's see 252 Jolly Dug vs offensive sets of most used NU mons from last month (and specially defensive walls) :

 

vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drapion: 174-206 (120 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 246-290 (158.7 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 210-248 (106.5 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Calm top usage)
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 320-378 (213.3 - 252%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 132-156 (92.3 - 109%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 139-165 (102.9 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 138-163 (98.5 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 114-135 (91.2 - 108%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Honchkrow:  204-242 (116.5 - 138.2%) -- guar. OHKO | Sucker 50/50
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 106-126 (72.6 - 86.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 258-306 (172 - 204%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 150-176 (96.7 - 113.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 139-165 (99.2 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 156-186 (107.5 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 204-240 (115.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 258-306 (172 - 204%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 139-165 (99.2 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 139-165 (95.8 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 304-360 (198.6 - 235.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

When it comes to the ghosts that shouldn't be trapped ... well :

Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 132-156 (97.7 - 115.5%) -- OHKO after Stealth Rock

(Switch) Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 150-178 (111.1 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Froslass: 124-147 (70 - 83%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

 

So basically when we look at everything that was higher than the 4% usage bar in December, what’s left to play with ???

 

Some physically defensive walls : Rotom, Mantine, Golbat, Hitmontop, Slowbro, Spiritomb, Rhydon, Alomomola
Some Aqua Jet users (Feraligatr being the best example) as well as some bulkier sweepers that can’t be killed unless previously damaged : Eelektross, Escavalier, Kanga, Venusaur.
The few faster sweepers that can threaten Dug : Aqua Tail Aerodactyle, Swellow, Sceptile.

 

That’s it.

Meaning it safely removes anything else from the match.

 

If that’s not enough to ban Dug why do we have tiering in the first place ?

Edited January 13, 2021 by TohnR
Imagine calcing 100atk, couldn't be me

[Zymogen]

Just ban arena trap in all competitive play 

[FC]

BAN CONKELDURR or remove Bulk Up.

[Luke]

3 hours ago, FC said:

BAN CONKELDURR or remove Bulk Up.

Bulk Up isn't an issue on conkeldurr, it's Flame orb. Bulk up has tons of checks and counters.

[SweeTforU]

Dug is healthy stop hating...

[GasaiYunoSan]

8 hours ago, SweeTforU said:

Dug is healthy stop hating...

I agree =)

[DarylDixon]

On 1/11/2021 at 10:51 AM, LifeStyleNORE said:

Cancer, same for Electrode. 

what about machamp

[xMago]

1 minute ago, DarylDixon said:

what about machamp

same than stelian use with me "use psyquic spiritomb, ez counter"