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Lets talk about matchmaking


Parke

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I'll start this by saying I was going to make a suggestion but figured this would be better to see how the community in general feel and maybe get ideas from others that could help. Any staff/dev input here would be cool too because I'd like to imagine you guys are noticing the same things we are

 

I feel like the whole matchmaking system for the lower tiers (UU, NU, Dubs) is getting stale again. It's getting to the point where I'm seeing people waiting like 10/20 minutes without finding games only to face the same person they face every single time. I don't really know what we could do to improve this, maybe nerf rewards? or add extra incentives for winning games in a row or something idk. That's what I'm hoping people can suggest so we have an idea.

 

But from looking at how hard it is to find games etc, I'm not liking the direction where things are heading - it's looking like we might go back to how things were before the MM update where the other tiers are dead or inactive most of the time.

 

What you guys think?

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I don't really play UU NU or even Dubs but I heard a lot of players complaining about how long it is to find a match, this seems to be a real issue right now.

Sadly can't get more into it since I'm playing mostly OU and LC and it's either the most played tier and legit the only tier who did not get matchmaking yet.

 

Unsure nerf rewards would make people play the tier more, unless you chose to only nerf OU rewards but even there, atleast for me, it would not be a good reason to move to another tier. I think it's all about the opportunity of playing the tier, which is kinda missing right now, but maybe upgrading low play rate tiers rewards would be a better idea, rewards in OU are good as they are right now imo, despite the fact the same pokemons are always coming back as rewards but not the point.

 

As I know, some people are not playing the tier either bcs of the seasonnal vanity (which I believe is half of a reason) so maybe it would be nice to work on another kind of seasonnal reward that would attract more people into it ?

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Lets talk about you and me

 

on topic: 

 

i also made a suggestion about this, because i see the same trend.

 

maybe something like this would help, but there need to be more incentive to queue up for lower tiered ranked queues.

 

Edited by Quakkz
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This is clearly community's fault, not system fault. System proved to be super effective when it first was introduced and it's not like it has changed in the meantime. Nerfing/ boosting UU-NU also makes no sense because the rewards for each tier are approximately the same, and therefore people should have the same motivation to play all of them equally. If they don't, it is because they don't want, or let me rephrase it better, the vast majority don't want (You may know 10 or 20 individuals who would like to actively play UU-NU, but thats so far from the majority)

If you want more people to care about lower tiers, simply create more tours around these tiers, more events around these tiers. Anything that promotes these tiers as tiers and not as MM, so more people will actually try to join these tiers on MM.

TLDR; MM system is fine, it has proved so in the past. If the vast majority don't play lower tiers it's because they don't feel interested enough in these tier. If you want them to care about it, improve anything else that is lacking, not something that inherently is fine.

Edited by pachima
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I don't know how the system works tbh. But me and a group of friends, wanting to get some good points in UU ranked, tried to queue simultaneously, but we weren't able to fight each other. We waited an hour for a single game but nothing. I know this is off topic though, just wanna point out that this happens.

 

Plus, i also think it's because of the vanity rewards for this season.

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Personally, i don't think nerfing the rewards will promote the tiers since the rewards are already discouraging enough for me to queue MM for the said tiers, and i don't think boosting the rewards will solve the issue either, in the short term maybe but not in the long term. What i feel is it is up to the community whether they want to play the tiers or not, if they don't then it's simply because they don't want to. Perhaps creating more tournaments such as monthly or yearly tournaments like the past Player of the Year tournament for each of the tiers will get people involved in the tiers more.

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1 hour ago, pachima said:

If you want more people to care about lower tiers, simply create more tours around these tiers, more events around these tiers. Anything that promotes these tiers as tiers and not as MM, so more people will actually try to join these tiers on MM.

I don't understand what you mean by "promotes these tiers as tiers and not MM" - creating more events and tours would have the exact same effect as promoting the MM of the lower tiers through something like a weekly rotation of boosted prizes. If anything, MM has a lower barrier to entry than tournaments do, which in theory would lead to more uptake. I agree that there should be more tournaments (as with all tiers - but that's a topic for another thread), but I don't understand how promoting the matchmaking of lower tiers would be anything but a good thing. The prize boost could be centralised around UU and NU, but it doesn't have to be exclusive to them - it could be a system that rotates and promotes 2 of the 4 tiers per week, but each week would always include at least one of either UU or NU. 

 

I keep finding myself referring back to it, but the Call to Arms system in World of Warcraft dungeon finders is a great example of this kind of thing. Historically you could easily wait 30min for a tank, but because the Call to Arms offers bonus loot to people who queue as a tank within a certain timeframe, the average wait time (anecdotally) is at least 50% less. This system isn't directly applicable because it dynamically assesses and incentivises whichever role is the least represented at any given time, but I definitely think the concept is transferrable.

 

One of the biggest questions regarding this kind of thing, though, is exactly how to incentivise a tier. The prize should be something that isn't useless, and will stay fresh, but also won’t have a big impact on the economy.

Edited by Zymogen
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So i finished my biba hat grind like a week ago and it was a pain in the ass. 

 

The most annoying part is that  you have to play the same 5 people over and over again. I played one person like 15 out of 20 matches, which just feels stupid. Not the systems fault tho, yes. What  also is annoying, is how you get like 15 points if your opponent forfeits turn 5. Theres people who check if they can get an advantage early and if they dont, because you check their zoro they just leave. Up to 10min of q time, finding a match and getting 15 points, maybe even less - fun. Even worse if you play a 30min game and dont get anything, but 150 bp.

 

Another problem i see is how UU and NU are dead in comparison to OU, but you still need 10k points for the vanity. Thats like 250 wins per season; 83 per month; 2,8 a day - just wins, not games. So if you dont have a somewhat decent winrate, which isnt even that easy, because usually NU folks have played the game for quite a while, thats an outrageous amount of grind, considering sometimes you just hang in q and dont find games, because NU has like an 8h activity window.

 

NU is just a shit hole of a tier. Idk why we dont have RU yet and i dont think itll happen any time soon. I do realise thats highly subjective, but if it wasnt for that hat, i would have quit grinding 50 games in, because the tier is just fkn random and literally 0 fun. Highly subjective tho, i get that.

 

In my opinion:

1) Reward people for not just skipping through games. If a games lasts 15+ min, why not just give the loser some points as well? 

2) If you dont do 1) altough its the better way to approach this, lower the points necessary to get the vanity item. 10k in a dead tier is just stupid. 

3) Start promoting lower tiers. OU is active 24/7, UU and NU are dead, give people a reason to q for UU and NU.

    Do some happy hour; add actual useful items. 2 weeks ago we had a bp charme...i mean, a bp charme for a tier where you dont even know if you find games. Really  enjoyed that one :)  

 

Edited by NOREButler
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3 minutes ago, NOREButler said:

The most annoying part is that  you have to play the same 5 people over and over again. I played one person like 15 out of 20 matches, which just feels stupid.

 

Kinda the same for me, in my timezone there is litterally no one else online. I can find matches quite easy during 00:00 - 04:00 AM, what a nice time to grind.

While I wait some times more than 3 hours for a match at a "normal" time in my zone. Not gonna talk about checking every 2 mins if you actually found a match an not just trying to do something else during these ultra long matchmaking Q's and completly miss and loose  your match because your focus shifted away from mmo for like 5 mins.

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12 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

I don't understand what you mean by "promotes these tiers as tiers and not MM"

It's simple. System works fine. People should play both tiers with equal motivation because their rewarding is similar. If they don't is because:
a) UU and NU are much more restrictive than OU, in the sense you can use less mons there, which means plenty of players won't breed dedicated teams for those tiers.

b) UU and NU are simply not interesting enough for the big masses.

If you want to fix the issue, you try to make the tiers more interesting (Not exactly sure how). If you simply add bonus rewards for those tiers, all you are doing is delaying the issue. People would start playing again,because of the novelty, and then, gradually, you'd see exactly what happened before, less and less people signing. 

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13 minutes ago, NOREButler said:

So i finished my biba hat grind like a week ago and it was a pain in the ass. 

 

The most annoying part is that  you have to play the same 5 people over and over again. I played one person like 15 out of 20 matches, which just feels stupid. Not the systems fault tho, yes. What  also is annoying, is how you get like 15 points if your opponent forfeits turn 5. Theres people who check if they can get an advantage early and if they dont, because you check their zoro they just leave. Up to 10min of q time, finding a match and getting 15 points, maybe even less - fun. Even worse if you play a 30min game and dont get anything, but 150 bp.

 

Another problem i see is how UU and NU are dead in comparison to OU, but you still need 10k points for the vanity. Thats like 250 wins per season; 83 per month; 2,8 a day - just wins, not games. So if you dont have a somewhat decent winrate, which isnt even that easy, because usually NU folks have played the game for quite a while, thats an outrageous amount of grind, considering sometimes you just hang in q and dont find games, because NU has like an 8h activity window.

 

NU is just a shit hole of a tier. Idk why we dont have RU yet and i dont think itll happen any time soon. I do realise thats highly subjective, but if it wasnt for that hat, i would have quit grinding 50 games in, because the tier is just fkn random and literally 0 fun. Highly subjective tho, i get that.

 

In my opinion:

1) Reward people for not just skipping through games. If a games lasts 15+ min, why not just give the loser some points as well? 

2) If you dont do 1) altough its the better way to approach this, lower the points necessary to get the vanity item. 10k in a dead tier is just stupid. 

3) Start promoting lower tiers. OU is active 24/7, UU and NU are dead, give people a reason to q for UU and NU.

    Do some happy hour; add actual useful items. 2 weeks ago we had a bp charme...i mean, a bp charme for a tier where you dont even know if you find games. Really  enjoyed that one :)  

 

i couldnt agree more

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15 minutes ago, pachima said:

a) UU and NU are much more restrictive than OU, in the sense you can use less mons there

I wholeheartedly disagree, one of NU's biggest problems is the sheer number of viable Pokemon that need to be accounted for when teambuilding, but I'll stop there because a discussion on this would derail the thread

 

15 minutes ago, pachima said:

b) UU and NU are simply not interesting enough for the big masses.

I will concede this - UU and NU are inherently less interesting because, by definition, they are full of Pokemon that people don't want to use.

 

15 minutes ago, pachima said:

If you want to fix the issue, you try to make the tiers more interesting (Not exactly sure how).

Perhaps by buffing their prizes?... 

 

15 minutes ago, pachima said:

It's simple. System works fine.

Yes, the underlying system itself is fine, but that doesn't mean that it can't be enhanced. Why wouldn't you want more people playing each tier? I just don't understand the logic of "the effect would only be temporary, so there's no point doing it at all" because there's no guarantee that it would be temporary, and surely doing something is better than nothing. Would you personally not enjoy playing for increased prizes?

 

 

Edited by Zymogen
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Imagine you r a new professional driver and you have the possibility to drive a F1, a F2 or a kart and whatever your choice you will earn the same salary , imo that's normal people will chose to drive mostly F1. If we speak about MM , that's normal for a new pvp player to go directly in OU instead of the other tier with his favorite pokemon (for exemple Garchomp, Salamence, jolteon are very popular and they are all OU ) .

Let's back to serious discussion, these tier wont be as popular as OU is no mather what dev do. But on the other hand , these tier wont die as they were in the past thanks to the new seasonal system , people will play these tier for the first 2-3 weeks of each season and the last week too to be alowed to participate on the big tournament of each season and i think we cant do more about this because it all depend on what community want to play :/

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I've been thinking about this a bit further.

1- Buffing prizes won't work. Prizes aren't relevant at all cause if they were, we'd see all tiers played equally, which we don't. (Unless we drastically buff, which won't happen, and is not healthy for the game)

2- UU- NU IS more restricted than OU. The big masses are mostly casuals who use their favorites and therefore have to play OU. It doesn't really matter if NU has more viable pokes or not, OU doesn't restrict, NU does, period.

3- With 1, and 2, I conclude that the reason why UU-NU are dead is because of OU itself. For as long as we have the three tiers available at the same, the big masses will almost always pick OU, automatically reducing UU-NU flux of players. So, since I'm forced to agree it is hard to make lower tiers more interesting, the only way I can see of fixing this issue is having different timewindows for OU and UU-NU.

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When you have three options, and one of them seems attractive, while the other two dont; what do you think makes more sense?

1) Take choices from people, by temporarily locking the attractive one, only leaving them the less desired ones

2) Making the other two options more attractive and promoting them (however that may look like)

 

 

Edited by NOREButler
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2 hours ago, pachima said:

This is clearly community's fault, not system fault. System proved to be super effective when it first was introduced and it's not like it has changed in the meantime. Nerfing/ boosting UU-NU also makes no sense because the rewards for each tier are approximately the same, and therefore people should have the same motivation to play all of them equally. If they don't, it is because they don't want, or let me rephrase it better, the vast majority don't want (You may know 10 or 20 individuals who would like to actively play UU-NU, but thats so far from the majority)

If you want more people to care about lower tiers, simply create more tours around these tiers, more events around these tiers. Anything that promotes these tiers as tiers and not as MM, so more people will actually try to join these tiers on MM.

TLDR; MM system is fine, it has proved so in the past. If the vast majority don't play lower tiers it's because they don't feel interested enough in these tier. If you want them to care about it, improve anything else that is lacking, not something that inherently is fine.

Needing to play hundreds of games to compete for the top spots is definetely the systems fault and it discurages the community from playing. if the ELO system and the rewards are improved then matchmaking would immediately be more populated.

 

Also more tours

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1 minute ago, iJulian said:

Needing to play hundreds of games to compete for the top spots is definetely the systems fault and it discurages the community from playing. if the ELO system and the rewards are improved then matchmaking would immediately be more populated.

 

Also more tours

Just get the same job Junior has and play 1k rankeds in 2 months. Pretty easy tbh.

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12 minutes ago, NOREButler said:

Just get the same job Junior has and play 1k rankeds in 2 months. Pretty easy tbh.

i dont think you should blame someone because he is playing a lot the game he likes. It has nothing to do in a topic like that

 

20 minutes ago, iJulian said:

Needing to play hundreds of games to compete for the top spots is definetely the systems fault and it discurages the community from playing. if the ELO system and the rewards are improved then matchmaking would immediately be more populated.

 

 

A lot of game where there is a matchmaking system you wont be rewarded if you play 10 match in the entier season. That's normal to play a lot to compete for the top spots in a ranked mod.

 

15 minutes ago, iJulian said:

Also more tours

100% agree with that , more tour sheduled on different timezone might probably attract more player to try these tier

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Maybe this is a hot take, but I'm not going to spend millions building teams & hours grinding lower tiers for a squirrel headband. This is something I'd expect to see in a PokeMart for $2500, not a 'reward' for grinding the ladder.

 tJFKXJE.png

 

Until we stop seeing things like this, lower tiers will never have a chance to succeed. 

Edited by Paul
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4 minutes ago, Paul said:

Maybe this is a hot take, but I'm not going to spend millions building teams & hours grinding lower tiers for a squirrel headband. This is something I'd expect to see in a PokeMart for $2500, not a 'reward' for grinding the ladder.

 tJFKXJE.png

 

Until we stop seeing things like this, lower tiers will never have a chance to succeed. 

+ the fact that is untradeable it kinda desmotivates people into winning a "real" reward.

We really need better prizes, for mm and for tours aswell

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