New Tournament System; poll + discussion

[Luke]

I'd like to open a dialogue about the new tournament system, as I have spoke to many people and it seems to be a controversial subject for many.. I made a thread before about the potential issues with this new system but it got derailed; and this was before it was implemented. I felt it was right to create a new thread now that everything has settled and people can now make a reasonable judgement on the subject. Last time it got a lot of responses and turned into an insult match, I hope to avoid that this time around. I have also heard recently some ideas of a compromise on both systems and adding an in-between, if you have any ideas please say them as I am interested to hear them.

 

This time around I'd like to try to remain unbiased in my initial post and encourage others to give their input as I am genuinely curious on the opinion of the competitive player base on this change.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Lvkee

[Parke]

Still got the same input as I had previously, I feel like this shuffled system is better overall for the player base. I get why people dislike it though, obviously. 

 

I feel like as long as you've got multiple teams premade and ready then you're good to go. At least to me at least that's how it feels. 

 

I also feel like the only people who are mad/upset still about this are the people who still play mostly every official, did well pre shuffle-bracket update and haven't done anything (or not as well as they're used to doing at least) since the shuffled bracket update. Learn to adapt to change and stop depending on knowing what your opponent is gonna use and focus more on the skill you have and you'll be just fine.

 

[pachima]

Allow me to speak my mind of the 3 options.

 

Old system: Promotes hard counterteam buildings that are solely exclusive made to beat that one team, and fail miserably against everything else. In most games with this type of building, the skill exerted into the actual game is little or none. The winner player is whoever rolled the better matchup team, not whoever read the game better (Note that this doesn't happen everytime, but the system itself promotes these situations, which we shouldn't want to) - It also gives inherent advantage to bigger scouting teams.

 

New system: It is, imo, a step in the right direction, since it hinders the hard counterteaming aspect until late rounds. Although it is, again imo, preferable that the old system, it still has 2 inherent flaws: Early round teams are a bit random, since they fall in the false sense of safety of being uncountered. Second is that late rounds are still subjected to hard counterteaming.

 

Possible newer system: Something regarding fixed Battle Boxes selected prior to the tour happening. Players would then be somewhat forced to build decently solid teams in order to have the odds in their favor against several different opposing teams. Number of Battle Boxes would have to be low to avoid specific counterteamings to common teams selected as "filler" battle boxes.

 

PS: Before you say that counterteaming is part of the game, there is a difference between the ideal world where players would create a team that is solid overall and excels against the opposing  teams AND a team that is only viable against the opposing team, and fails miserably against everything else. First isn't entirely matchup dependant, allows skill exerted into the actual match, and makes the tier evolve. Second does not.

 

Thank you all.

[ThinkNicer]

Imo lock in 4 battle boxes before tourney. Best of both worlds. Non shuffled bracket. 

[LifeStyleNORE]

11 minutes ago, ThinkNicer said:

Imo lock in 4 battle boxes before tourney. Best of both worlds. Non shuffled bracket. 

Agree but 6

[Zigh]

even 3 would be more than enough, you can cover pretty much anything with that besides memes or weird sets

[LifeStyleNORE]

10 minutes ago, Zigh said:

even 3 would be more than enough, you can cover pretty much anything with that besides memes or weird sets

Idk if you're thinking exclusively about Doubles, but as a OU player I disagree and can name a bunch of different playstyles just off the top of my head that make 3 teams seem a bit restrictive:

 

- Rain Offense

- Sand Balance

- Non-Sand Balance

- Suicide Lead HO

- Screens HO

- Drag-Mag

- Stall

- etc (Sun hehe) 

 

6 is a sweet number imo, because not only it is the amount of boxes that everyone starts with, it's also the number of rounds for 64 man tournaments, which is the standard for every tier/format, barring OU. And nothing should prevent someone from running a different team in every round, if said someone wishes to do so. 

[xMago]

do a poll and that many votes are fake accounts of nore.

 

later people will seek seriousness

[CristiDOX]

The problem with open voting like this is that truthful data are not reflected by things like this.

In the end the result of the voting will not have any kind of impact, and will end up ina pointless discussion as in previous posts (obviously with some insults in between) without reaching any kind of agreement or solution.

[LifeStyleNORE]

Just now, xMago said:

do a poll and that many votes are fake accounts of nore.

 

later people will seek seriousness

None of those accounts are from people in NORE, but it's nice to have a fanbase. To the person who already created 5 forum accounts in the last 20 minutes just to vote on a random poll, I hope you can find something more productive to do with your time. 

[NOREButler]

Imo this new system is just boring af to watch, which is all i care about in tours these days. Its, as someone said in the other thread, just mm with prizes added. No dynamics whatsoever.

 

But what is kinda annoying is how people insist on claiming the old system promoted cteaming so much. The only reason it helped to cteam was because people were too lazy to build several teams. Cteaming working isnt a given, it is a damn choice! This new system has the same flaw. People just grind their one team until finals and get cteamed there. I fail to see how this new system is a benefit in that regard.

 

I also dont know how blindly playing people, not knowing their tendencies even, promotes skill, or more skill rather. Bad match ups are a thing, even more so if you dont know that you´re about to face some niche strat like weather, screens, or w/e else there is to cheese. NU rn is pretty fucked up and heres so much random shit you cant possibly cover in one team. To me this new system is match up fishing and as i said above lacks certain dynamics that make watching  tours appealing.

 

Old system: Just swap your teams if you dont want to be cteamed.
New system: Just spam the same team every round and dont bother building more than two, in case you wanna avoid being cteamed in finals, which funnily enough happened to two "randoms" in NU tours lately.

 

Really promotes a lot of skill. Especially if you consider team building a skill as well, which i do. That key skill is just deminished completely in this new system. A new system which demands you to lock your boxes prior to the tour registration and enables you to know who you are  going to face seems to be the best possible system there is for all of us. Cool idea actually, pachi.

E: Well, credits to pachi. derp :p

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by NOREButler

[Luke]

2 minutes ago, xMago said:

do a poll and that many votes are fake accounts of nore.

 

later people will seek seriousness

I can confirm 0 of these are nore lmao, people made accounts to vote against NORE since most people in NORE prefer the old system. Some people have to ruin stuff for others.. 

[xMago]

1 minute ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

None of those accounts are from people in NORE, but it's nice to have a fanbase. To the person who already created 5 forum accounts in the last 20 minutes just to vote on a random poll, I hope you can find something more productive to do with your time. 

This poll already with false votes is not worth it, are nore accounts or fan accounts of nore

[Luke]

1 minute ago, xMago said:

This poll already with false votes is not worth it, are nore accounts or fan accounts of nore

This was generally just created for discussion. The poll was a bonus so people could see who preferred what in general, I hope a mod can remove & ban any fake voters but I doubt it.

[Parke]

Like I posted on discord. Who cares about the poll? The poll is irrelevant. The discussion is the main thing here, as most of the votes come from V4 and NORE in opposite ends anyways basically and so far I've seen about 2 people actually contribute to the conversation here while 40+ people vote. Speak people, things aren't gonna change by just voting. Back up why you think things should change or stay the same.

[Luke]

Personally I believe that being locked into 6 battle boxes in the old system (non shuffled brackets) would be the best outcome for all involved.

 

This gives you 6 teams per tier (or format) *out of a max of 30*  which would be pre built for you to use. I feel this combats hard countering which typically is extremely negative due to the fact if the opponent changes their team it becomes extremely one sided and a poor build. But also gives people the freedom to shuffle around their team to what they see fit vs their opponent. 

 

Thoughts on this? Any improvements or negatives you can see with this which could be improved?

*Thanks to Life & Pachi for raising this idea

[xMago]

honestly I am not going to vote, each one has its pros and cons, I do not have a favorite between the 2 options.

[SirDusty]

I personally like the random battles, even participating in tournaments or watching I never find them stale. As a person who has recently got back into comp again, I enjoy not having to worry about scouting from my opponents.

 

On saying that, I’m not opposed to the battle box idea

[razimove]

Just start punishing people who fake accounts. Its so easy, perma forum ban their main acc.

 

I agree with Mago, each has their own downsides to the participants, personally I prefer nowadays system as its an attempt to fix counter teaming personally.

Edited December 3, 2020 by razimove

[Huargensy]

25 minutes ago, Parke said:

Like I posted on discord. Who cares about the poll? The poll is irrelevant. The discussion is the main thing here, as most of the votes come from V4 and NORE in opposite ends anyways basically and so far I've seen about 2 people actually contribute to the conversation here while 40+ people vote. Speak people, things aren't gonna change by just voting. Back up why you think things should change or stay the same.

I made a post days ago on the subject, the comments were from each person giving their opinion on that, but at the end of that nobody changed their mind and it becomes something of two sides, what I am going to is If there is no agreement between both sides, wouldn't the best thing be to do a demo and vote? or at least a staff member talks about it lol on the other hand, staff do something good and ban the ip of the Mongolians from fake de nore accounts, at least from the forum.

[Laz]

I dislike the idea of a definite number of locked battle boxes, as it leaves no room for improvisation during the tournament, everything has to be pre-planned, meh.

[Parke]

18 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

I made a post days ago on the subject, the comments were from each person giving their opinion on that, but at the end of that nobody changed their mind and it becomes something of two sides, what I am going to is If there is no agreement between both sides, wouldn't the best thing be to do a demo and vote? or at least a staff member talks about it lol on the other hand, staff do something good and ban the ip of the Mongolians from fake de nore accounts, at least from the forum.

People are gonna cry and disagree either way whatever the decision is yeah. Case and point of whats happening currently haha. There's no way to keep everyone happy unfortunately, thats just life.

[gbwead]

4 minutes ago, Laz said:

I dislike the idea of a definite number of locked battle boxes, as it leaves no room for improvisation during the tournament, everything has to be pre-planned, meh.

I mean it might not be necessary to lock teams at the start of the tournament, just one round in advance should be enough. 

[RLotus]

2 minutes ago, Laz said:

I dislike the idea of a definite number of locked battle boxes, as it leaves no room for improvisation during the tournament, everything has to be pre-planned, meh.

Exactly. Sometimes, in order to prepare for your next opponent you want to bring a prebuilt team but 1 pokémon switched that has a favorable matchup. Removing possibilities like this is not conducive to a competitive environment. 

 

Furthermore, i think it’s an exaggeration to say that the old system is based on purely on counter building. If you use the same team over and over, you deserve to get counter teamed. That is the nature of pokemon tournaments.

 

Just change it back to the old system, there was nothing wrong with it to begin with this change was based on some dumb opinions few on the forum had

[DaftCoolio]

Seems unlikely the system would be changed back. The direction of the game in general is aimed to help newer players in pvp, see not banning things. The new tour system again is there to help newer players who dont have the resources to build 43 different teams. This doesnt give any competitve advantage to either new players or experienced players, while the old system is indirectly advantageous to experienced players.