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New Tournament System; poll + discussion


Poll On New Tournament System  

91 members have voted

  1. 1. Which tournament system do you prefer (Please only answer if you actively engage in PVP)

    • The old system (Non shuffled, pre update)
    • The new system (shuffled, after update)
    • A newer system (Please give any ideas you have on this)


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6 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

Seems unlikely the system would be changed back. The direction of the game in general is aimed to help newer players in pvp, see not banning things. The new tour system again is there to help newer players who dont have the resources to build 43 different teams. This doesnt give any competitve advantage to either new players or experienced players, while the old system is indirectly advantageous to experienced players. 

 

true and sad

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Hace 12 minutos, DaftCoolio dijo:

Parece poco probable que se vuelva a cambiar el sistema. La dirección del juego en general tiene como objetivo ayudar a los jugadores más nuevos en pvp, no vean prohibir cosas. El nuevo sistema de recorridos nuevamente está ahí para ayudar a los jugadores más nuevos que no tienen los recursos para construir 43 equipos diferentes. Esto no da ninguna ventaja competitiva a los jugadores nuevos ni a los experimentados, mientras que el sistema antiguo es indirectamente ventajoso para los jugadores experimentados. 

 

Pero, es un MMO, se supone que cuanto más tiempo, más recursos tienes, todos los que estamos comentando en este foro, alguna vez fuimos nuevos, con quizás solo 6 mons, pero así empieza, nadie gana un Tour en sus primeros intentos, si ves un problema con un Mon, creaste algo para mejorar ese error, y así sucesivamente hasta que estés más preparado, pero ahora, la gente solo crea un equipo y envía spam en cada tour, y espera suerte sonreírles, y tocarlos en cada ronda al azar una buena combinación.

Si quieren ayudar tanto a los nuevos y quejarse de los recursos, dales una caja de competitividad a la hora de crear personaje, y que construyan lo que les plazca (sarcasmo), pero devuelva la diversión a los torneos.

Edited by Huargensy
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1 minute ago, Huargensy said:

But, it is an MMO, it is assumed that the more time, the more resources you have, all of us who are commenting on this forum, were once new, with maybe only 6 mons, but that's how it starts, nobody wins a tour in their first attempts, If you see a problem with a poke, you created something to improve that error, and so on until you are more prepared, but now, people only create a team and spam that every tour, and wait for luck to smile at them, and touch them in each round randomly a good match. If they want to help the new ones so much and complain about the resources, give them a box of competitive when creating character, and that they build what they please (sarcasm), but return the fun to the tournaments.

No one is saying they should be able to win off the bat. The point is with the old system regardless of pokemon/ivs/evs/items a newer player is at a disadvantage before the match (in later rounds) even begins.

 

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Doing an open vote of this type is a total nonsense due to the fact that people who vote with multi-accounts, but I think it is necessary to do some kind of survey to know with certainty how many players are for or against it new or old format of tournaments. I think that a survey should be done that is regulated in a certain way, so that the opinion that is taken into account is that of the players who actively participate in competitive tournaments of this game, a way that a friend had suggested a while ago, was to take into account only the vote of the players who are currently in the top 100 rank of the different tiers, but in this case that would be something absurd, since it is quite obvious that the rank players will be almost in Its totality according to the current system, since it is basically the same as playing the ranks, where they are spamming a team blindly, in addition to the fact that there are a large number of players who only participate in tournaments but not in ranked.

One way that occurred to me to be able to quantify in a relatively "safe" way the votes is to first do an internal survey, where the Boss of each team will take into account the opinion of the other members, and then will take a general balance of the votes, which will then be added to a survey at the level of all the teams, in this way, each team will have 1 vote based on the opinion of the majority, and to ensure that the vote reflects the opinion of the majority of Active comps players, the 16 active teams with the best position in the TT ranking will be taken into account, in this way we will have a limit of 16 votes that take into account the opinion of all the members of said Teams, I know it is not perfect and that perhaps in the end, even if said survey was carried out, it might not be taken into account by the Staff, but I think it would be better to have at least the opinion of the majority registered, without alts or false accounts.

Next, I leave you an image of which would be the participating Teams, Rose and Aw are currently dissolved, so the last remaining quota would be occupied by Dgts.

1551404133_ImagenRandom.thumb.png.5f5a61bf0d54d2069856071f7d253451.png

 

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32 minutes ago, CristiDOX said:

Doing an open vote of this type is a total nonsense due to the fact that people who vote with multi-accounts, but I think it is necessary to do some kind of survey to know with certainty how many players are for or against it new or old format of tournaments. I think that a survey should be done that is regulated in a certain way, so that the opinion that is taken into account is that of the players who actively participate in competitive tournaments of this game, a way that a friend had suggested a while ago, was to take into account only the vote of the players who are currently in the top 100 rank of the different tiers, but in this case that would be something absurd, since it is quite obvious that the rank players will be almost in Its totality according to the current system, since it is basically the same as playing the ranks, where they are spamming a team blindly, in addition to the fact that there are a large number of players who only participate in tournaments but not in ranked.

One way that occurred to me to be able to quantify in a relatively "safe" way the votes is to first do an internal survey, where the Boss of each team will take into account the opinion of the other members, and then will take a general balance of the votes, which will then be added to a survey at the level of all the teams, in this way, each team will have 1 vote based on the opinion of the majority, and to ensure that the vote reflects the opinion of the majority of Active comps players, the 16 active teams with the best position in the TT ranking will be taken into account, in this way we will have a limit of 16 votes that take into account the opinion of all the members of said Teams, I know it is not perfect and that perhaps in the end, even if said survey was carried out, it might not be taken into account by the Staff, but I think it would be better to have at least the opinion of the majority registered, without alts or false accounts.

Next, I leave you an image of which would be the participating Teams, Rose and Aw are currently dissolved, so the last remaining quota would be occupied by Dgts.

1551404133_ImagenRandom.thumb.png.5f5a61bf0d54d2069856071f7d253451.png

 

glossing over how stupid of an idea this is. experienced players are inherently bias towards the old system, they already have multiple teams, they are relatively better off under the old system as they gain an advantage over players without multiple teams.

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5 hours ago, Sztajger said:

Just wanna say, scouting is part of all sports. Also in finals is 1v1 so how u want to prevent scouting there.

I will only say, the competitive VGC From pokemon spams only 1 team.

You can't counter, but you can spectate.

then the closest thing to the competitive one that is currently, is what we have now, we only need to force spam only 1 team.

I do not care if it is good for a new person within the competitive or not, what makes the competitive more GOOD is playing each with his team, not having other people or yourself to counter your rival.

 

pokemon is not dedicated to countering the rival team, it is dedicated to having a good showdown with your team, since you can only use one (I repeat, I'm talking about official pokemon tournaments, not pokemmo)

 

When you play a TT, are you going to play no matter which opponent plays against you, or will you build against the person who is going to play against you?

 

nothing more to say.

 

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1 hour ago, DaftCoolio said:

glossing over how stupid of an idea this is. experienced players are inherently bias towards the old system, they already have multiple teams, they are relatively better off under the old system as they gain an advantage over players without multiple teams.

I think a constant since the discussion began on the subject of brackets was "it's an mmo, new players don't have to play on equal terms with old ones" it's obvious that players who have more hours invested will have an advantage over newcomers

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I agree with mago to some extent.  A player should be able to win a cc or regular official off playing skill alone. But teambuilding is  arguably the hardest skill to learn and there really is no incentive outside of player hosted tourneys to even get good at it. Anybody can just spectate a high elo game, copy a team, play it enough to get the idea of how it works, and ride it to semis at a tourney.Imo bringing back seasonal tournies with set brackets would be a decent compromise. A newer player could have success in officials with a well built team but if they want to win the most prestigious events they at the very least would need to have a few solid prebuilts. And even though they could just copy all their prebuilts from mm as well, it would force them to be diverse and flexible which is something else that has seemed to  have taken a hit.

Edited by Imabetheverybest1
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Stop being so contemptuous with "new players", if you think anybody can reach semi without any skill to me it just look like you're salty. 

 

If there was such a team build that allowed anyone to reach semi, then why dont we see it every time winning tournaments ? What is the point of competition then ? And even if this team existed, then you should use your "skill" to come up with something that counters it instead crying to have lost against a "new player". 

 

Y'all saying it's a big skill to be able to build a team, but at the same time you cry because you lose against players using the same team. If you were that good at team building, you wouldn't lose in the first place. 

 

The argument "this is MMO, not supposed to bring equality of chances" is the same way : you used to win because you had more resources to exploit team building that your opponent can not always do. If you really need to have an advantage against a new player to win, then what's the glory in winning at all ?

 

At some point the hypocrisy is too strong not to ignore. 

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5 hours ago, Poufilou said:

1. Stop being so contemptuous with "new players", if you think anybody can reach semi without any skill to me it just look like you're salty. 

 

2. If there was such a team build that allowed anyone to reach semi, then why dont we see it every time winning tournaments ? What is the point of competition then ? And even if this team existed, then you should use your "skill" to come up with something that counters it instead crying to have lost against a "new player". 

 

3. Y'all saying it's a big skill to be able to build a team, but at the same time you cry because you lose against players using the same team. If you were that good at team building, you wouldn't lose in the first place. 

 

4. The argument "this is MMO, not supposed to bring equality of chances" is the same way : you used to win because you had more resources to exploit team building that your opponent can not always do. If you really need to have an advantage against a new player to win, then what's the glory in winning at all ?

 

5. At some point the hypocrisy is too strong not to ignore. 

1. Can  you quote who said that?

 

2. Can you please quote someone who was whining about losing to a new player in this thread? Must have missed it, sorry, but also thanks in advance.

 

Do i have to explain how stupid it is to tell people to just cteam that "perfect" team in a bracket where they dont know who they face or do you realise yourself? Do you realise how wide of a tier NU is and that theres a lot more to cover than you possibly can, thus a "perfect" team being built is fkn impossible; that theres always some kind of strat or mon that you cant beat? How stupid of "better" players to have bad match ups.

 

3. Can you please quote someone whining about losing to randoms? Kinda covered that in 2. and cant sweat enough  how fkn stupid and naive that claim is. I struggle to see how you reach the conclusion that better builders shouldnt lose due to match ups, but enlighten me please. And if you are graceful enough to do so, please try to reach logical conclusions this time around - or the first time around rather.

 

4. Brackets have only been randoms back in the days. One solid person per bracket, no glory in it at all, because everything was just cteaming round1 until finals. Yeah, you got em good Einstein!

 

Claiming that people only won tournaments in the past, because they had an advantage in ressources is a bold claim, but since nobody would be so damn stupid to just throw that around hoping to get away with it, i am sure you can give me some kind of evidence that that is the case? Evidence as in real facts , i dont give a fuck about what you feel is evident. 

 

5. Ngl, it also gets fucking annoying having to deal with people like you, who just throw around empty "facts", implications and assumptions. You managed to say nothing, but how disgusted you are with people that "whine" about that new system, though i even struggle to find these people in here. All you´re doing is fighting straw mans. As a rule of thumb; if gb likes your post, chances are that you just managed to pull such a post, congrats! 

 

While you are at it, feel free to enlighten me on how people in this thread are being hypocrites. Do you even understand what that word means? Oh and dont get the wrong impression; im neither salty nor mad at you. Its just tiring having to face this "style of argumentation" from people that are way too confident in the emotional bs they spout, while they think they are taking a logical approach.

Edited by NOREButler
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Most of the messages here (and in the suggestion thread) in favor of the old system pretty much implies some sort of contempt towards players that "use the same team through the tournament", which some people said that it was the main way to play of new players, which is true since they don't have many resources to do otherwise. 

 

"Whining" may be exaggerated, but exaggerating was the purpose of my message. Sometimes you have to trigger people so they can see their own claims from another perspective. As for the resources/win part, it is something that is true, but I never said it was the case everytime. But following some player's logic, c-building is the main skill in this game, or the one they care the most about, and this skill requires resources that new players don't have. Does removing this skill puts you at equal foot against players that are supposedly less good than you ? 

 

Hypocrisy is pretending that everything players defending old system has said is purely theoretical, talking about how it changes the meta and strategy and stuff while it obviously also has to do with your way to enjoy the game. It's not empty facts, because I don't try to spit facts. I was mostly pointing out that your arguments are mostly based on your feelings rather than apparent logic. 

 

I do understand your message and it would be true if it didn't misunderstood mine. So I'm not salty either, and open to any discussion. 

 

I voted "new system" because what has been said about it was very interesting. I don't think it will lead to anything from staff, but I have the feeling most of the competitive things we enjoy the most are communities-hosted tournaments and events. May be interesting to keep some of these ideas for future events. 

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4 hours ago, NOREButler said:

1. Can  you quote who said that?

Imagine using Ctrl+F: "New Players". Oh wait, 11 results on this page alone...

 

 

4 hours ago, NOREButler said:

2. Can you please quote someone who was whining about losing to a new player in this thread? Must have missed it, sorry, but also thanks in advance.

 

Do i have to explain how stupid it is to tell people to just cteam that "perfect" team in a bracket where they dont know who they face or do you realise yourself? Do you realise how wide of a tier NU is and that theres a lot more to cover than you possibly can, thus a "perfect" team being built is fkn impossible; that theres always some kind of strat or mon that you cant beat? How stupid of "better" players to have bad match ups.

You do realise that what he said is implied. He doesn't have to quote anything, it's the logical conclusion of people complaining they can't use scouting + resource to get an advantage over new players. They are complaining because their odds against new players were better before, so that means they are losing more to new players than they were before. It's heavily implied in several pro old system posts.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, NOREButler said:

3. Can you please quote someone whining about losing to randoms? Kinda covered that in 2. and cant sweat enough  how fkn stupid and naive that claim is. I struggle to see how you reach the conclusion that better builders shouldnt lose due to match ups, but enlighten me please. And if you are graceful enough to do so, please try to reach logical conclusions this time around - or the first time around rather.

... Ok fine, you're really struggling with this so let me help you out:

18 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

This doesnt give any competitve advantage to either new players or experienced players, while the old system is indirectly advantageous to experienced players. 

On 8/1/2020 at 2:40 PM, RLotus said:

I see many people making the argument along the lines of "Counterteaming is bad, so good". There will still be bad matchups, except it will be random when you face it. It is the same problem that matchmaking has and why tournaments are held in higher regard than mm. It does not matter what team you use when you play matchmaking, you are going to run into bad matchups and theres nothing you can do, you can't prepare for everything. Some games will be lost to matchup. In tournaments, players have more control of the matchups they face. The better [with more resources] players can mitigate bad matchups by not bringing particular mons/playstyles vs particular players, and be more consistent than worse players [with less resources]. Why would we not want to control for this factor instead of making it random? 

The bolded parts heavily imply that the new system increases the losing odds of players with more resources compared to the old system where players with more resources could counter their opponents.

 

 

4 hours ago, NOREButler said:

4. Brackets have only been randoms back in the days. One solid person per bracket, no glory in it at all, because everything was just cteaming round1 until finals. Yeah, you got em good Einstein!

 

Claiming that people only won tournaments in the past, because they had an advantage in ressources is a bold claim, but since nobody would be so damn stupid to just throw that around hoping to get away with it, i am sure you can give me some kind of evidence that that is the case? Evidence as in real facts , i dont give a fuck about what you feel is evident. 

A lot of people won tournaments battles in the past because they were able to counter their opponents with 10 mins garbage. I seriously hope you are not disputing that ...

 

 

4 hours ago, NOREButler said:

5. Ngl, it also gets fucking annoying having to deal with people like you, who just throw around empty "facts", implications and assumptions. You managed to say nothing, but how disgusted you are with people that "whine" about that new system, though i even struggle to find these people in here. All you´re doing is fighting straw mans. As a rule of thumb; if gb likes your post, chances are that you just managed to pull such a post, congrats! 

 

While you are at it, feel free to enlighten me on how people in this thread are being hypocrites. Do you even understand what that word means? Oh and dont get the wrong impression; im neither salty nor mad at you. Its just tiring having to face this "style of argumentation" from people that are way too confident in the emotional bs they spout, while they think they are taking a logical approach.

If you don't understand the reasonable and logical things Poufilou said, you should be annoyed at yourself, not him really. get gud

 

Edited by gbwead
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6 hours ago, NOREButler said:

2. Can you please quote someone who was whining about losing to a new player in this thread? Must have missed it, sorry, but also thanks in advance.

I'm not exactly talking about people who spoke in this thread, but as you know, there were many people who when they started playing people like "lluvvia", "intimidoar" or "Akarukokuyo" they cried because they were NEW players in pokemmo.

 

example rendi in this PSL , everyone knows that drama, right?

 

this community is so toxic that they do not accept when a new player enters the game and is a good player.

Edited by xMago
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Since I'm part of the reason why this discussion got derailed, let me help put it back on track by comparing the two systems.

 

Whether we look at the old system or the new one, in both cases, the first turn of each tournament is identical, you don't know who will be your opponent. In both cases, the last turn of each tournament is also identical, you will know exactly who you are facing. So this entire debate about the second round to the second to last round of each tournament. For a 16 players tournament (4 rounds total), we are therefore arguing about what is the best format for the 2nd and 3rd rounds. For a 256 players tournament (8 rounds), we are therefore arguing what is the best format for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th rounds. I'm not trying minimize the importance of this debate, just pointing out to what we are all talking about.

 

Now let's look more closely at the old system where you would know in advance who is your opponent and therefore you will be able to prepare accordingly. Preparing accordingly can mean different things. In the case of an old player against an old player, well both players can scout each other during the tournaments and learn what they used in previous rounds. Since they are old players, we can also assume they might have scouting knowledge of their opponents that goes outside of the tournaments itself. I know some old players would accumate data on their potential future opponents before tournaments even start for instance. They might also have already prepared a team to face specific opponents they are anticipating and already gathered the resources to play that team they build by themselves or perhaps with the help of friends. It's also possible they are using the 10 mins prior to the duel to teambuild a counter team against their opponents; that's when friends and accumulated resources come in handy since old players might not all have the same amount of resources or friends. Overall, we probably can assume that it's an equal playing field when an old player is facing another, despite some resources imbalances that might be. It's important to point out that it takes a certain level of skill to prepare a counter team in 10 mins and a fast/good builder will probably get an edge in the match up. The old system promotes that kind of fast/good builder competitive skill.

 

However, when an old player is facing a new player, the situation becomes very different. The old player can prepare far better for his duel than the new player. The new player will scout the teams his opponent played during the tournament, but that should not help him much since the old player has the luxury of changing teams. The old player will be building the most perfect counter team against the helpless new player that only has one team while his friends scouts the set of his opponent. If this was a first round of a tournaments, the odds the old player gets through with a counter team designed for someone specifically are very low. It's doesn't matter how good of a fast/good builder the old player might be, there is hardly any chance the team he will have built without testing will be ready to face a random standard team. The competitive skill of building good and fast required in the 10 mins team building between two old players becomes the most atrocious and disgusting match up fishing uncompetitive garbage when an old player is using his accumulated assets to crush a new player.

 

I feel this is the core of the problem. Some feel it's better to promote the fast/good builder competitive skill of old players vs old players while others feels it's more important to promote a more fair competition among all players at the cost of losing the required skill to counter your opponents in few minutes. 

 

We are playing an MMO and that means some people have more friends and/or resources than others. That's not something we can change and that's what we all agreed to play since we are here. Some may feel that a competition in an MMO implies that it's completely fine if old players have an advantage over new players. That's how it is by design and we shouldn't fight against it. I understand why some may feel that way, but I strongly disagree with that premise. For me, as an old player, having more resources and friends than new players doesn't mean I should be inherently advantaged against the new player, it should mean I have the luxury of playing different playstyles whenever I feel like I'm bored of playing the same thing. It's not about getting a competitive edge, it's about having more competitive freedom. I would have no pleasure beating a new player by hard countering him, what would even be the point? Winning there doesn't mean I outsmarted the new player in any way, that just means I out resourced him which is just sad. It's unfair really. Where is the competition in that?

 

Some also argue that it is boring because players can get away with playing the same team. Why? Why is it boring for you that other people are playing the same team? You're not the one playing the same team, others are, right? As an old player, you have the luxury of changing team, so why are you bored by what other people are doing? Play your with whatever you want to play and that's it really. I don't see the issue. Is it that spectators get bored when they see someone spamming his only team? That can be understandable. However, to be fair, I personally get bored when I see a bad case of match up fishing from an old player facing a new player, these kind of duels are not interesting at all imo. Overall, I feel this argument is quite subjective since what may be boring to some might not be for others and, in all cases, the entertainment factor of spectators is not the most important issue here. It's good to mention it, but nothing more imo.

 

Anyway, that's the way I see it and that's why when I look at the pros and cons of each system, I feel the new system is more appropriate for PokeMMO. 

 

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

Seems unlikely the system would be changed back. The direction of the game in general is aimed to help newer players in pvp, see not banning things. The new tour system again is there to help newer players who dont have the resources to build 43 different teams. This doesnt give any competitve advantage to either new players or experienced players, while the old system is indirectly advantageous to experienced players. 

 

This is the most important aspect! I see a lot of people stating that it's a matter of opinion but there is actually a very valid argument with this for the new system. So I don't get the opinion circlejerk that got opened up last thread.

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We are also all assuming that with the new system players spammed more the same team. I think this argument comes from reasoning rather than facts. How can you notice any differences ? Did you spectate every matches of every players in every tour's to know for sure that they play the same team ? And that they didn't do that before ? It's not obviously observable. 

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