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December-Movement Discussion Thread


Munya

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On 11/27/2020 at 7:44 PM, VelociRaptorr said:

Linoone to NU?

It makes no sense to change Linoone.

The only thing they will provoke is that we use Steelix, gigalith; to be able to stop it.

Linoone isn't used enough anymore in UU so it naturally drops to NU, it's not anyone's decision just the usage based tiering doing its purpose.

Also Steelix is already one of, if not the most used mon in NU so doubt Linoone will change that, it's not like it's anything new right there

Edited by TohnR
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13 hours ago, PoseidonWrath said:

 

either unban mienfoo or ban Porygon.

 

Porygon comes in +1 and goodluck saccing 1 mon lol

really balanced

This makes 0 sense cause mienfoo isn't switching on +1 +porygon either. 

If Porygon is broken (which I don't think it is), we ban Porygon, we don't unban a Pokemon that has nothing to do with it for the sake of it.

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4 hours ago, pachima said:

This makes 0 sense cause mienfoo isn't switching on +1 +porygon either. 

If Porygon is broken (which I don't think it is), we ban Porygon, we don't unban a Pokemon that has nothing to do with it for the sake of it.

Wym it makes no sense?

clearly if mienfoo is unbanned less people are gonna use porygon bcs right now with mienfoo banned mons like Bronzor Pory and munch are getting used ALOT

mienfoo pressured those mons .

so u dont think porygon is broken? Tell me some LC that safely can handle a +1 tri attack/ hp fire or psyc

 

 

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1 hour ago, PoseidonWrath said:

Wym it makes no sense?

clearly if mienfoo is unbanned less people are gonna use porygon bcs right now with mienfoo banned mons like Bronzor Pory and munch are getting used ALOT

mienfoo pressured those mons .

so u dont think porygon is broken? Tell me some LC that safely can handle a +1 tri attack/ hp fire or psyc

 

 

The problem is that Mienfoo can't switch against +1 porygon as well. So if Porygon offensive is a big deal currently, it would be a big deal before. And if we agree offensive porygon wasn't even used much prior to Mienfoo ban, and if we agree Mienfoo can't switch on Porygon, then we have to agree Porygon offensive has other switch-ins within the tier, otherwise no matter if mienfoo is in the tier, porygon would be broken offensively, which was not, or at least no one complained about it.
 

Now, my personal input regarding current LC is that mienfoo singlehandedly fixed most flaws any LC team had in the past. This alone doesn't make it Mienfoo banworthy, no. However, based on my experience, Mienfoo successfully hid all those flaws simply by being fit in a team. It is not a coincidence that Mienfoo takes ages to be removed, and once it does, everything else follows rather quickly, unless we're talking about heavy stall matches. Now here's the thing. Mienfoo's replacement, Timburr, isn't able to fix all those weaknesses at once, and only now people are realizing that maybe, just maybe, their other 5 fillers are utterly garbage as a team, and maybe, just maybe, their other 5 fillers have way too many exploitable weaknesses, and therefore should be changed.  Of course its much easier to just go on forums and say: b-but porygon broken.

 

tldr; if +1 offensive Porygon is so goddamn broken and has no switches in LC, then +1 offensive porygon was also so goddamn broken and had no switches in LC prior to Mienfoo ban, simply because Mienfoo doesn't safely switch against +1 offensive Porygon at all. Therefore, the issue lies elsewhere, and my personal input says its connected to how Mienfoo allowed bad teams and therefore bad teambuilds to exist without a big risk.

PS1: Sorry if I sounded repetitive.

PS2: This post wasn't made to justify a Mienfoo ban. It was made to explain how Porygon being "supposedly" broken now doesn't matter towards unbanning Mienfoo.

 

 

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Hace 4 minutos, Huargensy dijo:

 

 

Hace 5 minutos, pachima dijo:

El problema es que Mienfoo tampoco puede cambiar contra +1 porygon. Entonces, si la ofensiva de Porygon es un gran problema en la actualidad, lo sería antes. Y si estamos de acuerdo en que porygon ofensivo ni siquiera se usó mucho antes de la prohibición de Mienfoo, y si estamos de acuerdo en que Mienfoo no puede activar a Porygon, entonces tenemos que estar de acuerdo en que la ofensiva de Porygon tiene otros cambios dentro del nivel, de lo contrario, no importa si mienfoo está en el tier, porygon se rompería de forma ofensiva, lo cual no fue así, o al menos nadie se quejó de ello.
 

 

No, it was not a counter, but it was a check, to force the change to porygon something that other mon did not, or did timburr force the change to be slower? or a croagunk with focus blast risking 70% of hitting it? I don't see many mons who can put pressure on porygon as well as mienfoo did

Edited by Huargensy
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7 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

 

No, it was not a counter, but it was a check, to force the change to porygon something that other mon did not, or did timburr force the change to be slower? or a croagunk with focus blast risking 70% of hitting it? I don't see many mons who can put pressure on porygon as well as mienfoo did

This is interesting because most mienfoos chose to run drain over close combat, and drain doesn't pressure Porygon at all, at least not more than plenty of other pokes can. (ex: munchlax, cranidos, pawniard, ... ). Actually Porygon offensive was so not considered a threat that I had actually seen plenty of mienfoos that sacrificed offense for more bulk. And I pretty much doubt this would be the case if Porygon was the monster you all claiming it to be.

Of course Mienfoo is an amazing mon, and while this is not enough to justify a ban, your argument actually solidifies what I stated earlier, that the issue seems to lie elsewhere, and offensive Porygon actually was amazing against most past teams, but only now that weakness became glaringly obvious, as with some other stuff.

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, pachima said:

Porygon actually was amazing against most past teams, but only now that weakness became glaringly obvious, as with some other stuff.

I totally agree, but I gotta say Download may be broken. 

 

+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Munchlax: 13-16 (39.3 - 48.4%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 9-12 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 91.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Munchlax Body Slam vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 7-9 (26.9 - 34.6%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 236 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Add the possibility of running agility on it and you got a sweeping material that does it's job without any effort, just by coming in against a pokemon that has a higher defense than sp.defense.

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17 hours ago, Laz said:

I totally agree, but I gotta say Download may be broken. 

 

+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Munchlax: 13-16 (39.3 - 48.4%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 9-12 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 91.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Munchlax Body Slam vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 7-9 (26.9 - 34.6%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 236 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Add the possibility of running agility on it and you got a sweeping material that does it's job without any effort, just by coming in against a pokemon that has a higher defense than sp.defense.

You missed my point. Porygon MAY be broken now, I don't disagree with that. However, if that is the case, then its also broken with mienfoo in the tier( especially since Mienfoo isn't a counter, and totally can't check agility versions). So IF porygon is broken, we ban Porygon, we don't unban Mienfoo.

That is the first reason why unbanning Mienfoo to balance Porygon makes little sense.

The second is that unbanning a Pokemon to balance others is a dangerous argument and opens unwanted cans of possibilities like misdreavus with scraggy or scraggy with murkrow, etc, etc.

Edited by pachima
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There is an example of a Polemon being allowed back in OU for balance. And that was Excadril in BW2. Spike stacking teams were running rampant and the best spinner was banned to Ubers. So they brought Exca back to help fight these spike stack teams. With the complex ban of having Sand Stream + Sand Rush in one team not being allowed.

 

Later on Sand Rush in its entirety was banned, because Rain teams used Exca to sweep Sand teams (that normally could counter properly). Just an example of bringing something back to the tier. Now this won't work for Foo because if you ban Regen then the only thing it can do is revenge killing Pory. And that doesn't make Pory any less broken, if it is.

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3 hours ago, pachima said:

You missed my point. Porygon MAY be broken now, I don't disagree with that. However, if that is the case, then its also broken with mienfoo in the tier( especially since Mienfoo isn't a counter, and totally can't check agility versions). So IF porygon is broken, we ban Porygon, we don't unban Mienfoo.

That is the first reason why unbanning Mienfoo to balance Porygon makes little sense.

The second is that unbanning a Pokemon to balance others is a dangerous argument and opens unwanted cans of possibilities like misdreavus with scraggy or scraggy with murkrow, etc, etc.

That's what i said, i agreed with your point saying Porygon was broken even before Mienfoos ban, but i never asked for a Mienfoo unban, if Porygon is broken it should be banned ^^

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I think it's just a simple thing that made Pory stronger with Mienfoo ban : Pory users were running Psychic to deal with him, otherwise it would be free to switch in even on a +1. Some very common bulkier Mienfoo (sacrificing 2 atk stat) could even withstand +1 psychic with rocks. 

 

People replaced Psychic with HP fire, and most things that could deal with Pory were gone (common steel types). Heck they can even add Trick to Pory now, while it was less common before, because Recycle mons are strong right now without the main knock off user in the tier. And also make Agility Pory more easy to do. 

 

Removing 1 move becoming less useful from 1 mon can do a lot. 

 

I don't have any opinion on whether it should be banned or not. Some things like Ponyta can kill it. Or some speed invested Vullaby. But yeah you have to make some sacrifices otherwise before taking it down. 

 

But I'd like to see Mienfoo remaining unbanned just to see how tier will evolve. 

Edited by Poufilou
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